[aliceingoogs]

I think the question has been suitably answered.

Perhaps the mods should either close the thread, or begin deleting the posts of the troublemakers?

[encumeterz]

The Hanbalis are clearly of the opinion that the hands are to be placed below the navel.

Of course, this will irritate some pseudo-Hanbalis, who are in fact pseudo-salafis!

I keep my hands below my navel, does that now make me an authentic Hanbali?

Regardless there is freedom in the madhab to do what you want, because it is a sunnah of the Salah, so even if you want to pray with your hands by your side there is no problem with that.

[Htb48JBf]

Dr ati before answering your ridiculous claims, Firstly, please mention to me where you place your hands?.

I place it where the Prophet PBUH used to place it. But instead of getting into circular arguments,tell me why the Hanafi ladies place their hands on chest?This debate will be of an interest for all those who want to know more about placing hands in Salah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzIciBebWc

[abossakon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzIciBebWc

I wish these kind of debates would take place when everything is good in the ummah, sunshine everywhere. Is this really the problem of the ummah?!? La ilaha illa Allah. The enemies of Islam make this a big deal. They want us the get involved in such issues so that we don't engage in more serious things like changing the state of the ummah and the world.

[mnhloot]

tell me why the Hanafi ladies place their hands on chest?

This question was answered in my earlier post. You also did not correct the lies I pointed out, specifcally your lies that Hanafis are singled out in saying men and women differ in the arkan of salah while Hanafis do not differentiate in the arkan of salah between men and women and the differences in posture they uphold are shared with the other madhhabs, and your claim that the three madhhabs besides the Hanafi madhhab don't "sanction" placing the hands below the navel while this is the preferred opinion of the Hanbali madhhab.

It appears you take your Islamic knowledge from videos on youtube. If that is the case, I can tell you such a source is very unreliable and dangerous. Instead of having your lies and false assertions disproven over and over again, why don't you gain true knowledge of din, rather than relying on hearsay? What you have now is what is termed "jahl murakkab," a deep ignorance that is compounded by a false sense of knowledge and confidence. The false sense of knowledge does not help, rather it makes you appear more foolish and stupid when you make such bold claims that are clearly false with absolute confidence.

[Htb48JBf]

. The evidence from the Prophet for placing the hands on the chest has been transmitted from Tawus (a tabi'i). The Hanafis prefer the latter for women, as it is more concealing for them and the rule for women in all postures is that which is most concealing for them. Hence, the Hanafis act on both sets of hadiths.

Since you for yourself have taken the responsibility of defending a "madhab" instead of researching the real sunnah so the main theme of your logic is searching excuses for your stance or preconceived notions.
This is what u call your "reason" for Hanafi ladies placing hands on their chest? The Prophet PBUH said"Pray as you have seen me praying.. "(Sahih Bukhari Book 1 Vol 1, Hadith 604) . One can easily logically deduce from this hadith and your "reason" the hollowness of placing hands below the naval. This is Qayas e batila.

[Yswxomvy]

I place it where the Prophet PBUH used to place it. But instead of getting into circular arguments,tell me why the Hanafi ladies place their hands on chest?This debate will be of an interest for all those who want to know more about placing hands in Salah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFzIciBebWc

Stop giving me links which I am not even going to click on. Why talk about ladies when yourself, if you do not follow the hanafi view and fold your hands below the naval than you are going against authentic hadith. Present proof that the view you follow is authentic, stop giving me links. If you have proof post it here.

[Numbiydq]

The Prophet PBUH said"Pray as you have seen me praying.. "(Sahih Bukhari Book 1 Vol 1, Hadith 604)

As i quoted earlier, our own interpretation and logical inference of this hadeeth cannot compare with the other ahadeeth of the Messenger of Allah ( صلى الله عايه وسالم ) and the verdicts and practice of the Sahabah and Tabi'un ( رضئ الله عنهم ).

[Htb48JBf]

Stop giving me links which I am not even going to click on. Why talk about ladies when yourself, if you do not follow the hanafi view and fold your hands below the naval than you are going against authentic hadith. Present proof that the view you follow is authentic, stop giving me links. If you have proof post it here.

I am asking for the proof, why ask me to post stuff? You must have been to a deobandi mosque,if you note the people praying there, u will see that almost all of them place hands above the naval practically.
I am sure that most of the common hanafis dont place them below the naval. This "below the naval" thingy is limited to written debates only. Half of the hanafi population (ladies) place their hands on chest in Qayam already. Where is is this "below the naval" in real?

[Yswxomvy]

I am asking for the proof, why ask me to post stuff? You must have been to a deobandi mosque,if you note the people praying there, u will see that almost all of them place hands above the naval practically.
I am sure that most of the common hanafis dont place them below the naval. This "below the naval" thingy is limited to written debates only. Half of the hanafi population (ladies) place their hands on chest in Qayam already. Where is is this "below the naval" in real?

What you are saying is garbage. You are just here to make unnecessary baseless arguments yet when asked to present textual proof, you come up with a bunch of nonsense. 'Below the navel' is proven from reliable sources. I will present my proof once you show that your proof is authentic. Stop dragging this argument, you present an authentic hadith and I will present the hanafi proof.

[Htb48JBf]

What you are saying is garbage. You are just here to make unnecessary baseless arguments yet when asked to present textual proof, you come up with a bunch of nonsense. 'Below the navel' is proven from reliable sources. I will present my proof once you show that your proof is authentic. Stop dragging this argument, you present an authentic hadith and I will present the hanafi proof.

May Allah bless you for your manners. You have failed to understand my point. What proof will you present? Do u understand what i am saying? U will present proof for "hands below the naval" in Qayam? Half of your hanafi population ie ladies , place their hands on their chests so you will refute them. If u bring "proof" for hands on chest, you will refute the male hanafis. Better to search for proofs of hands on head.

[Yswxomvy]

Read what I have mentioned carefully. If I present proof against the position for men placing hands on the chest it does not necessarily mean that is weakening our position on the ladies, yes maybe according to your half baked usool it might, but not according to our usool. Hence, I asked you to first put forward your proof since you have claimed in a number of posts that you follow SAHIH hadith. Hence, let us see that sahih hadith on the placing of the hands. In turn, Insha-Allah I will reply to the hadith you present plus provide the hanafi proof.

As for ladies, once you can establish that the hadith you follow is sahih we can discuss the hanafi view on ladies. If you yourself cannot provide proof of an action you are doing why even discuss ladies?. Until than do not waste my time by trying to the drag the discussion. Since you claim to follow Quran and Sunnah, I and (I am sure) a number of the members of the forum want to learn the way you DERIVE rulings.

[iuopyra]

I wish these kind of debates would take place when everything is good in the ummah, sunshine everywhere. Is this really the problem of the ummah?!? La ilaha illa Allah. The enemies of Islam make this a big deal. They want us the get involved in such issues so that we don't engage in more serious things like changing the state of the ummah and the world.

It's safe and easier to argue and give your input to 900 year old running debates.

I hope that helps.

[newwebstar]

May Allah bless you for your manners. You have failed to understand my point. What proof will you present? Do u understand what i am saying? U will present proof for "hands below the naval" in Qayam? Half of your hanafi population ie ladies , place their hands on their chests so you will refute them. If u bring "proof" for hands on chest, you will refute the male hanafis. Better to search for proofs of hands on head.

For ur information, i got following for placing the hands on chest for woman

Question: placing the hands on chest for woman, is't ok? If yes then how?

Answer :
It is ok, because the salah of a woman follows the principle of "satr" (concealment). She should do everything that conceals her and her aurah most. When she conceals her chest then she conceals her aurah more. This is the ijtihad of the hanafi ulama. And it makes sense. The salah of a woman is different. She also does not bow like men. She also does not leave a space between her limbs and her body.

Source

[pataagusata]

You have failed to understand my point. What proof will you present? Do u understand what i am saying? U will present proof for "hands below the naval" in Qayam? Half of your hanafi population ie ladies , place their hands on their chests so you will refute them. If u bring "proof" for hands on chest, you will refute the male hanafis. Better to search for proofs of hands on head.

The most idiotic argument i have heard.

[pataagusata]

The Sharh Ashbah of Hamawi must be checked on the verdict of Abu Hanifa that a woman raises her hands upto ears because her hands are not awrah.

I read that in a article that this riwayah is even cited mutlaq i.e. the salaah of men and women is same, and it gave as referance Hamawi's Sharh Ashbah.

Here is it to check:

http://read.kitabklasik.co.cc/2010/0...al-asybah.html

[Scukonah]

None of the 4 schools, sanction hands below the Navel in Qayam , except Hanafiya

Dr Saheb, Please could you provide detailed and comprehensive proof (saheeh daleel) for your claim above. If not detailed and comprehensive, then at the least you should have some degree of proof (saheeh daleel) for the self-assured statement you made above.

[pouslytut]

Dr Saheb, Please could you provide detailed and comprehensive proof (saheeh daleel) for your claim above. If not detailed and comprehensive, then at the least you should have some degree of proof (saheeh daleel) for the self-assured statement you made above.

Doc will have a hard time backing up that statement. As i am sure by now he is very well aware of the Hanbali position (and Imam Ahmad's position) on this issue.

We await for the doc to substantiate.

[GeraldCortis]

Doc will have a hard time backing up that statement. As i am sure by now he is very well aware of the Hanbali position (and Imam Ahmad's position) on this issue.

We await for the doc to substantiate.

As Salamu alaikum,

At least one Shafi'i scholar adopted the view that the hands should be placed below the navel--Imam Abu Ishaq al-Marwazi. (see al-Majmu' 3:269)

[Scukonah]

Doc will have a hard time backing up that statement. As i am sure by now he is very well aware of the Hanbali position (and Imam Ahmad's position) on this issue.

We await for the doc to substantiate.

Still waiting. I'm assuming that since Dr Saheb is against taqleed (accepting someone else's statement without examining and assessing the Daleel), he should have at his disposal the research with which he arrived at the emphatic claim above. Perhaps he has gone back to recap on his tahqeeq.