[majestictwelve]

What is the difference between a Wahhabi and a Salafi. I thought both terms were synonymous, but people are saying that they are somewhat different.

Please help...

Thank you...

[Illirmpipse]

Wahhahi were the followers of Shekh Abdul Wahab Najadi Sahab r.a. i think he was Hambali but the Salafis are the evolution of their predecessor (i.e. Wahhahi), and they devise their faqah (Jurisprudence) by consulting the exsiting ruling of Four Pious Imams and as well as consulting to Quran wa Hadith through Great Ullamas. However i think, their great majority still follow the ruling of Imam Ahmed Bin Hambal r.a.

There is on diference in elementary beliefs of Shekh Abdul Wahab Najadi Sahab r.a., Salafis, Deobandis and Ahlehadiees, except illiteracy and fanaticism of Ahlehadees about some established beliefs.

But there is difference in Jurisprudential approach of Deobandis, Salafi, Wahabi and Ahlehadiees:

Deobandis are follower of Hanafi Jurisprudential approach
Wahabis were follower of Hambali Jurisprudential approach
Salafi are follower of Mixed Jurisprudential approach
Ahlehadiees are follower of their illiteracy and fanaticism but they pretend as they are taking from Quran and Hadiths

[22CreessGah]

Wahhahi were the followers of Shekh Abdul Wahab Najadi Sahab r.a. i think he was Hambali but the Salafis are the evolution of their predecessor (i.e. Wahhahi), and they devise their faqah (Jurisprudence) by consulting the exsiting ruling of Four Pious Imams and as well as consulting to Quran wa Hadith through Great Ullamas. However i think, their great majority still follow the ruling of Imam Ahmed Bin Hambal r.a.

There is on diference in elemantry beliefs of Shekh Abdul Wahab Najadi Sahab r.a., Salafis, Deobandis and Ahlehadiees, except illiteracy and fanaticism of Ahlehadees about some establish beliefs.

But there is difference in Jurisprudential approach of Deobandis, Salafi, Wahabi and Ahlehadiees:

Deobandis are follower of Hanafi Jurisprudential approach
Wahabis were follower of Hambali Jurisprudential approach
Salafi are follower of Mixed Jurisprudential approach
Ahlehadiees are follower of their illiteracy and fanaticism but they pretend as they are taking from Quran and Hadiths

Yaar, agar aapko kuch Ma'loom nahi to Zaban band rakhna achi baat hay, khaskar kay jab aapkon spelling bhi saheeh nahin aatay.

Translation: When you don't know something its better to keep your mouth SHUT particularly when you can't even spell things correctly.

The one asking the question has neither mentioned “Deobandees” and neither do have similarities with the “Wahabaees OR Salafees” in either Aqeedah or Fiqh. This is a figment of your imagination which has dragged Deobandees into the question and tried to put a slant on the question which is irrelevant.

Deobaniyoon kay baray main yeh Aaap kay zehan ka futoor hay warna sawal karnay walay nay aap say Deobandiyoon kay baray main to poocha bhi nahi!

[Illirmpipse]

Yaar, agar aapko kuch Ma'loom nahi to Zaban band rakhna achi baat hay, khaskar kay jab aapkon spelling bhi saheeh nahin aatay.

Translation: When you don't know something its better to keep your mouth SHUT particularly when you can't even spell things correctly.

The one asking the question has neither mentioned “Deobandees” and neither do have similarities with the “Wahabaees OR Salafees” in either Aqeedah or Fiqh. This is a figment of your imagination which has dragged Deobandees into the question and tried to put a slant on the question which is irrelevant.

Deobaniyoon kay baray main yeh Aaap kay zehan ka futoor hay warna sawal karnay walay nay aap say Deobandiyoon kay baray main to poocha bhi nahi!

Ok I don't know the spelling of "elementary", but I think you don't know the english language and don't have eye in your head.

Aap aakhen kahol ker post ko perhain man nay kahen nahi likha kah Wahabioon or Salafioon or Deobandion ki faqah ek hai.
Man nay sirf bunyadi Aqiad man in logo ko ek kaha tha, who bhi ahlehadeeson kay istisna ka sath.
Man nay kahir kwhai kay tehat is is ko extra jawab deya hai.

Ab aap batyen kah aap ko mari Post man kon say jin or bohot nazar aarahay hain. Mari post kay barkhilaf ager koi haqiqat hai?, to aap hi aaraz ker dein. Aap mujah Deobandiyat sekha dain, jo kah Pakistan man payda howa, Karachi man pala barha, or jis nay Darl Ulloom Korangi, New Town, Jama Tur Raheed, Sheikh ul Islam Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab, Mufti Azam Mufti Rasheed Sahab r.a., Maulana Yousf Ladhyanvi Sahab r.a., Maulana Masood Azhar Sahab, Imam Ahle Sunnat Maulana Sarfarz Khan Safdar r.a., Maulana Safdar Ameen Oakarvi Sahab r.a. ki Suhbatoon man rah ker deen seekha, Or jis ka Usmani or Thanvi Kahandan say qaribi taluq, or jo kah In man say Aksar kay Sheikh Dr. Hadul Haye Arafi ka Nawasa hai.

[nickayary]

Ok I don't know the spelling of "elementary", but I think you don't know the english language and don't have eye in your head.

Aap aakhen kahol ker post ko perhain man nay kahen nahi likha kah Wahabioon or Salafioon or Deobandion ki faqah ek hai.
Man nay sirf bunyadi Aqiad man in logo ko ek kaha tha, who bhi ahlehadeeson kay istisna ka sath.
Man nay kahir kwhai kay tehat is is ko extra jawab deya hai.

Ab aap batyen kah aap ko mari Post man kon say jin or bohot nazar aarahay hain. Mari post kay barkhilaf ager koi haqiqat hai?, to aap hi aaraz ker dein. Aap mujah Deobandiyat sekha dain, jo kah Pakistan man payda howa, Karachi man pala barha, or jis nay Darl Ulloom Korangi, New Town, Jama Tur Raheed, Sheikh ul Islam Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab, Mufti Azam Mufti Rasheed Sahab r.a., Maulana Yousf Ladhyanvi Sahab r.a., Maulana Masood Azhar Sahab, Imam Ahle Sunnat Maulana Sarfarz Khan Safdar r.a., Maulana Safdar Ameen Oakarvi Sahab r.a. ki Suhbatoon man rah ker deen seekha, Or jis ka Usmani or Thanvi Kahandan say qaribi taluq, or jo kah In man say Aksar kay Sheikh Dr. Hadul Haye Arafi ka Nawasa hai.

Slm,

Would be so kind as to in future reply in ENGLISH? One or two lines in Urdu (I suspect?) is OK but there are many posters here that do not have knowledge of that beautiful language. No sarcasm intended.

[Illirmpipse]

Slm,

Would be so kind as to in future reply in ENGLISH? One or two lines in Urdu (I suspect?) is OK but there are many posters here that do not have knowledge of that beautiful language. No sarcasm intended.

Walakum Usalam,

I'm sorry brother, That post was only for Colonel Hardstone, who don't know how to communicate somebody, and have on answers except washing his dirty linen in public. I'm not very good in English, but can post it English.

Wasalam

[22CreessGah]

Man nay sirf bunyadi Aqiad man in logo ko ek kaha tha, who bhi ahlehadeeson kay istisna ka sath.
Man nay kahir kwhai kay tehat is is ko extra jawab deya hai.

Ab aap batyen kah aap ko mari Post man kon say jin or bohot nazar aarahay hain. Mari post kay barkhilaf ager koi haqiqat hai?, to aap hi aaraz ker dein. Aap mujah Deobandiyat sekha dain, jo kah Pakistan man payda howa, Karachi man pala barha, or jis nay Darl Ulloom Korangi, New Town, Jama Tur Raheed, Sheikh ul Islam Mufti Taqi Usmani Sahab, Mufti Azam Mufti Rasheed Sahab r.a., Maulana Yousf Ladhyanvi Sahab r.a., Maulana Masood Azhar Sahab, Imam Ahle Sunnat Maulana Sarfarz Khan Safdar r.a., Maulana Safdar Ameen Oakarvi Sahab r.a. ki Suhbatoon man rah ker deen seekha, Or jis ka Usmani or Thanvi Kahandan say qaribi taluq, or jo kah In man say Aksar kay Sheikh Dr. Hadul Haye Arafi ka Nawasa hai.

This brother is claiming that the fundamental Aqaid of deobandees and Salafees are the same and he is claiming that he knows that since he is born and raised in (Karachi) Pakistan.

And he is claiming that I am trying to teach him about Deobandees when he has listed a long list of names and institues of his experience and affiliation.

Instead of words I have this answer for anyone who makes the underlined claim =

[majestictwelve]

brothers please,

I do not want my innocent question to cause such a problem. I just wanted to know if there is a difference, and if someone calls himself a Salafi, that mean he is also a Wahhabbi (and vice versa).

I know both groups have same origin and all, I just wanted to know what made them different. while we are on the subject, who are the "ahle Hadith" group? one of the brothers made it sound like they are a deviant group of Muslims? Please clarify...thank you.

[ExpodoDop]

A Salafi is a Wahabi in identity crisis.

[NickGrass]

I think the question is; depending on which way you look at it, too broad a question or too narrow a topic to cover...

My understanding has always been the Wahhabis were formed based on Salafi ideology among the past 200 or so years, but the Salaf have always been around. Even if you look at the salafi now, they are split into various groups, Ikhwaanis, Hizbis, Madhkalie etc

Whereas Wahabis are probably the quickest ones to call anything haram or shirk.

[meridiasas]

Salafi is what they call themselves and Wahhabi is what critics call them.

As far as differentiating between their modern versions and develpment and their founder and early shuyukh, I think that's an entirely different issue.

Nowadays they ascribe themselves to the salaf because of their following mostly variant opinions of the tabi'in instead of the accepted opinions as carried on by the sunni madhhabs and tariqahs, so they may de-emphasise their attachment to Shaykh al Islam Muhammad ibn 'Abdil Wahhab, but nonetheless that is where they get their roots from, regardless of any modifications, additions or changes his later followers made.

I respect his scholarship and intent both a lot more than the later generatations of his followers (those who trace their roots back to him).

The later ones come in any variety of forms from combinations of ibadhi influenced hardcore hanbalis (in fiqh and 'aqidah) with lessened emphasis on tasawwuf to extreme literalists declaring anyone who differs with them in 'aqidah or manhaj a heretic to any variety in between including some ikhwani influences mixed in. I don't think you can say Ikhwan al Muslimin are salafi or wahhabi even if their founders and formulators were in some ways influenced by the wahhabis, they did start independently taking from a variety of ideas (even mu'tazili concepts in some aspects).

[Illirmpipse]

This brother is claiming that the fundamental Aqaid of deobandees and Salafees are the same and he is claiming that he knows that since he is born and raised in (Karachi) Pakistan.

And he is claiming that I am trying to teach him about Deobandees when he has listed a long list of names and institues of his experience and affiliation.

Instead of words I have this answer for anyone who makes the underlined claim =

Hardstone I sorry for being too harsh, I was too angry regarding to your reply.

My statement is completely true; you have to consider my misspelled word "Elementary". Do you know what the primary or elementary or fundamental believes of Islam are?

Elementary Beliefs

This is First Kalimah, or if you like more explanation then “Iman-e-Mujmal" and if you like more explanation then “Iman-e-Mufassil” or if you like more explanation then entire Quran and certain type of Hadith which are explicit, clean, and non-contradictory.1

Denial Elementary Beliefs:

After Kalimah or Shahadah which is enough to embrace and maintain the Islam, If you denied any part of Quran or certain type of Hadith which is explicit, clean, and non-contradictory then you aren’t a Muslim.2

The Elementary beliefs of Islam:

For example:
Belief in Allah and in his Oneness
Belief in His Names and Attributes (without going in details, because that won't be primary thing)
Accept his commands
Belief in His Angles
In His Books etc....
And as I mentioned above entire Quran or certain type of Hadiths which are explicit, clean, non-contradictory.

Secondary Beliefs:

Without “KNOWING” these beliefs you may embrace and maintain your Islam. AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT DENY ANYTHING FROM QURAN AND HADITH.

All controversies among the Salafis and Deobandis or Ahle Sunnat Wa Aljammat are belongs to Ambiguities, non-explicit or non-clean or apperantly contradictory Nusoos (Quran and Hadiths). The findings of Salafis and Deobandis or Ahle Sunnat Wa Aljammat regarding to those controversies may call “Secondary Beliefs”.

Secondary Beliefs of Islam:

The life of Prophet (s.a.w) in the Grave, Sama-e-Muta, and Explanation of Attribute of Allah Ta’ala (Where is Allah, Hands of Allah etc………), the Battle of Ashaeerah vs Maturidiyah vs Athariya vs Mutakhreen Ashaeerah vs Hanabilah vs Ibn-Tamaya etc etc…………….

Anybody who do not know these things, He is a Muslim, because after embracing Kalimah or Shahadah you have automatically embraced the Allah Ta’ala’s intentions WHATSOEVER regarding to these problems. AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT DENY ANYTHING FROM QURAN AND HADITH.3

In beliefs not going into depth is extremely recommended, it is the path Companions of Prophets s.a.w. and this the teaching of our beloved Sheikh Hazrat Maulana Ahraf Ali Thanvi r.a..

Iman Malik used to say (in my own words): I dislike to dialogue about creeds, and Ullamas of our city (Madinah) have been disliking this always, and have been prohibiting from this, e.g. to dialogue about the opinion of “Jaham” and “Qadar”, I disliked to talk about that things which aren’t necessary for deeds, but according to me the silence is better in creeds about Allah and His Entity, because we have seen that the Ullamas of our city prohibits to talk about that things which aren’t necessary for deeds.4

Ad-Daraqutnee relates that Malik was asked about the attributes of Allah, to which Malik answered, "Pass them on as they come."5

When Imam Malik, al-Shafi`i, and others were asked about the interpretation of the verse al-rahman `ala al-`arsh istawa in particular, and about similar verses in general, they used to say: "Accept these verses and hadith as they were given without believing that they have meanings which pertain to a manner, such as images, descriptions related to creations, and the like."6
Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal said: "Allah mentioned Establishment (al-istiwa') and Establishment is only what Allah mentioned about it, not what humans imagine about it."7

Denial of Secondary Beliefs:

If somebody interprets or misinterprets or rejects the secondary belief of Islam, then he is going into details, and now he is in GREAT DANGER. If he interprets correctly the Quran and Hadiths then HE IS IN AHLE-SUNNAT WA ALJAMMAT, if he misinterprets the Quran and Hadiths HE IS OUT OF IN AHLE-SUNNAT WA ALJAMMAT, and if rejects the Quran Hadith HE WOULD BE OUT OF ISLAM. It depends upon what he is rejecting or in which sense.8 There are further more details.
Pardon me for my bad English, and consider real the issues.

I don’t want to contribute to divisiveness and needless polarization of Muslims, Therefore I answered him like that. Otherwise there is lots of chaos I can tell you. Lots of work we have to do besides the divisiveness. We need unity to raise the "Second Renaissance" of Islam. Now do you understand my point?

If you can read and see the Urdu characters then please also see my these post:
http://www.haqforum.com/vb/threads/1...3945#post83945
http://www.haqforum.com/vb/threads/1...3942#post83942
http://www.haqforum.com/vb/threads/1...3944#post83944

1) Sulayman Nandvi, Ahle Sunnat Wa Aljammat, (Karachi: Majils. 1994)
2) ibid.
3) ibid.
4) Ibn-e-Abdulbar, Jam’e Bayan-e-ilm
5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_ibn_Anas#cite_note-5
6) http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/anthro/anthro7.htm
7) ibid.
8) Summary from Other books and Sulayman Nandvi, Ahle Sunnat Wa Aljammat, (Karachi: Majils. 1994)

[Illirmpipse]

brothers please,

I do not want my innocent question to cause such a problem. I just wanted to know if there is a difference, and if someone calls himself a Salafi, that mean he is also a Wahhabbi (and vice versa).

I know both groups have same origin and all, I just wanted to know what made them different. while we are on the subject, who are the "ahle Hadith" group? one of the brothers made it sound like they are a deviant group of Muslims? Please clarify...thank you.

There is two major parts of Islam:
Beliefs (Aqaid)
Jurisprudence (Fiqah).

There is five major Jurisprudential approaches (Fiqahi Mazahib) in Islamic world:
Hanafi
Maliki
Sha'fai
Hambali
Salafi (Mixed Modern Approach of above four approaches, perhaps only exist in Saudia Arabia)

I think there is on difference in beliefs of Sheikh Abdul Wahab Najadi Sahab r.a. (Wahabis) and Salafis.

But there is difference in Jurisprudential approach of Salafi, Wahabis, and Salafis are the evolution of their predecessor (i.e. Wahhahis).

Wahabis were follower of Hambali Jurisprudential approach
Salafis are follower of Mixed Jurisprudential approach.

Ahl-e-hadiths also called Ghayer-Muqallid (GM), this is a sect produced by British Empire in colonial period of Sub-continent in accordance of "divide and rule" principle. The major problem of this sect is they don't obey these verses of Quran:

And do not follow a thing about which you have no knowledge. (17. Al-Isra-The Night Journey, Children Of Israel, 36 verse)

So, ask the people (having the knowledge) of the Message, if you do not know. (21. Al-Anbiya-The Prophets, 7 verse)

And instructs every layman to interpret and extract the intention of Allah Ta’ala through only one “Nas” (Quran or Hadith) rather than to remembering the good news and warnings from Quran wa Hadith. That is why they are disintegrating in sects upon sects since long time ago.

You read also about GMs
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...73888d1426d55e

Regarding to Salafis about following mixed Jurisprudential approach
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...e379257532defa

There is another type, you may called them Pseudo-Salafis, they also called them Salafis but in real, they illiterate fanatic Ahle-Hadith.

[Illirmpipse]

Who are the Madhkalie?

[BalaGire]

Who are the Madhkalie?

The Madkhalis revolve around a certain scholar called Rabee' bin Hadee bin Umair Al-Madkhalee (his followers are called madkhalis). He is a master of hadith and is extremely well-respected among Salafi scholars for his work against the Ikhwanul Muslimeen. Much of his writings have to do with refuting innovators that ascribe themselves to Ahlul Sunnah, or even Salafism in specific. One thing I need to make clear is that he is pro-government, which is why he is hated by Salafis that hate Saudi Arabia. In any case, Shaikh Rabee has been praised by the majority of scholars that hold weight. This includes Ibn Baaz, Al-Albani, Ibn Uthaimeen, Shaikh Muqbil, and Salih Al-Fozan.
In a nutshell, the Madkhalis are anti-khawarij (terrorists and suicide bombers), pro-government, and are hardcore when it comes to Islamic law. In my opinion, the represent Salafism better than others that ascribe themselves to Salafism.
P.s, remember that they dont refer to themselves as madkhalis.

[Erossycuc]

...

Ahl-e-hadiths also called Ghayer-Muqallid (GM), this is a sect produced by British Empire in colonial period of Sub-continent in accordance of "divide and rule" principle. The major problem of this sect is they don't obey these verses of Quran:

And do not follow a thing about which you have no knowledge. (17. Al-Isra-The Night Journey, Children Of Israel, 36 verse)

So, ask the people (having the knowledge) of the Message, if you do not know. (21. Al-Anbiya-The Prophets, 7 verse)
......
.....

As-Salaam Alaikum Wa-Rahmatullahi Wa-Barakatuhu

How do u know that they don't obey these verses of Quran?
Can u plz put some examples on ur claim?
Then r not they sunni?


Salam

[Illirmpipse]

The Madkhalis revolve around a certain scholar called Rabee' bin Hadee bin Umair Al-Madkhalee (his followers are called madkhalis). He is a master of hadith and is extremely well-respected among Salafi scholars for his work against the Ikhwanul Muslimeen. Much of his writings have to do with refuting innovators that ascribe themselves to Ahlul Sunnah, or even Salafism in specific. One thing I need to make clear is that he is pro-government, which is why he is hated by Salafis that hate Saudi Arabia. In any case, Shaikh Rabee has been praised by the majority of scholars that hold weight. This includes Ibn Baaz, Al-Albani, Ibn Uthaimeen, Shaikh Muqbil, and Salih Al-Fozan.
In a nutshell, the Madkhalis are anti-khawarij (terrorists and suicide bombers), pro-government, and are hardcore when it comes to Islamic law. In my opinion, the represent Salafism better than others that ascribe themselves to Salafism.
P.s, remember that they dont refer to themselves as madkhalis.

You mean, Khawariji = terrorists and suicide bombers?

[Illirmpipse]

As-Salaam Alaikum Wa-Rahmatullahi Wa-Barakatuhu

How do u know that they don't obey these verses of Quran?
Can u plz put some examples on ur claim?
Then r not they sunni?

Salam

If you are ture Salafi than this not for you, if you are Ahle-Hadtih who originated from india, and mostly live in sub-continent than you better know this than me, or if you don't know then go and read the literature of hardcore Ahle-Hadtih, which mostly in Urdu.

However the new generation Ahle-Hadtih of sub-continent are slowly transforming into Salafis. Their predecessors were go to the Saudia Arabia for Dirham and Dinar but when they go back to their homeland they had got some sense of Quran and Hadith.

Anyways, to cut long story in short, Ahle-Hadith are slowly abandoning their illiteracy and transforming into Salafis which is good news.

[FEti0TUI]

The Madkhalis revolve around a certain scholar called Rabee' bin Hadee bin Umair Al-Madkhalee (his followers are called madkhalis). He is a master of hadith and is extremely well-respected among Salafi scholars for his work against the Ikhwanul Muslimeen. Much of his writings have to do with refuting innovators that ascribe themselves to Ahlul Sunnah, or even Salafism in specific. One thing I need to make clear is that he is pro-government, which is why he is hated by Salafis that hate Saudi Arabia. In any case, Shaikh Rabee has been praised by the majority of scholars that hold weight. This includes Ibn Baaz, Al-Albani, Ibn Uthaimeen, Shaikh Muqbil, and Salih Al-Fozan.
In a nutshell, the Madkhalis are anti-khawarij (terrorists and suicide bombers), pro-government, and are hardcore when it comes to Islamic law. In my opinion, the represent Salafism better than others that ascribe themselves to Salafism.
P.s, remember that they dont refer to themselves as madkhalis.

1. His "work" against Ikhwan al-Muslimeen is pretty much nothing but the concoction of lies against its leaders.

2. The ones who praised him did so unaware of his treachery, and would most likely have relinquished their support of him if Bakr abu Zayd's research on Sayyid Qutb was carried out before they died, for example.

3. I think you'd have to prove that he is a master of Hadith. I haven't heard of him doing much in the field after receiving his degree.

If Madkhalis are the best representation of Salafism, then may Allah end the Salafi movement.

[Erossycuc]

If you are ture Salafi than this not for you, if you are Ahle-Hadtih who originated from india, and mostly live in sub-continent than you better know this than me, or if you don't know then go and read the literature of hardcore Ahle-Hadtih, which mostly in Urdu.

However the new generation Ahle-Hadtih of sub-continent are slowly transforming into Salafis. Their predecessors were go to the Saudia Arabia for Dirham and Dinar but when they go back to their homeland they had got some sense of Quran and Hadith.

Anyways, to cut long story in short, Ahle-Hadith are slowly abandoning their illiteracy and transforming into Salafis which is good news.

As-Salaam Alaikum Wa-Rahmatullahi Wa-Barakatuhu

First of all i m a Muslim

Until getting any examples from u on ur claim, complains r baseless to me.
Brother what did u hear about not to obey two verses of Quran? Just put ur understanding, i mean put verse first & then how did they disobey?


Salam