[UvjqTVVC]

Kufr that doesn't take one from the fold of Islam. That's my understanding of it. Do you have another understanding of it?

i dont have any understanding of it all unless a scholar who understands the arabic language and the context of the hadith explains it to me.

can you please explain the context of the hadith to me.

[somawaima]

how about not ruling according to the laws of Allah. is that kufr? i recall a sermon from someone called shaikh hudhayfi from madina? in the sermon he condemned the saudi rulers to have lost their iman because of the ayat....

Al-Maidah 44

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

also what if a ruler is deposed through war and revolution and a new ruler takes over. does the new ruler become the rightful ruler or will his kingship become a legetimate target? and what if a considerable amount of time has passed? does that then mean that his rule becomes legitimate due to the passing of time?

1 The verses against those who rule by other than the book of Allah are general and apply to everyone and not just teh rulers, so if you make takfeer of teh rulers with no conditions or principles, clear cut point blank takfeer, you should also make takfeer of any rabdom people on the street who are not using the book of Allah and the sunnah as their judge in all matters.

2 It is prohibbitted to fight a muslim ruler. If, however, people do go against teh ruler and defeat them, it is incumbent upon you to give allegience to the new ruler and his rebellion is between him and Allah. This is only after he is successful in his rebellion. During his rebellion you are still with allegience to the current ruler and so you should defend the state against the renegades. An example of this is when the power exchanged hands in muslim history e.g. Khulafah Rashideen, Ummayyads, Abasids, Ottomans, Ayyuubis etc etc. Each time they came to power, it was incumbent upon the people to pledge allegience to them AFTER they had secured power. So now in egypt and tunisia teh new rulers must be obeyed no doubt. The question is, was their original revolution in accordance with the shariah, and that I believe is teh question posed here.

And Allah knows best

[somawaima]

I cannot give you a hadith to confirm my statement but oppression should never be tolerated. So I think demonstrations and protests are permissible if they are against clear and open oppression. The events going on in the middle east currently are permissible in my eyes especially Egypt and Libya.

Perhaps you shoudl avoid giving a fatawa based on "what you think". Allahu musta'aan, teh yawmil quiyaama gets ever closer...

[BUMbaronos]

Have you spoken to Bashaar Al-Asad to know what he believes exactly and then decided to label him an unbeliever?

Have you seen Qadhafi practice black magic? Do you know that he did the things that you say that he did and does that make him an unbeliever?

I know many things that Gaddafi has done i.e banning beards, changing eid, changing the Quran. But then again, i am only Libyan. What do i know?

Okay, lets use your logic.

Bush isnt a kafir, and neither are Ariel sharon or Khomeni and all the others, because they never came out and openly declared themselves otherwise, and we havent gone to them and asked them what they truly believe. And after all , Khomeni did used to call himself a muslim.

Mashaallah.

[Cengaeas]

I know many things that Gaddafi has done i.e banning beards, changing eid, changing the Quran. But then again, i am only Libyan. What do i know?

Okay, lets use your logic.

Bush isnt a kafir, and neither are Ariel sharon or Khomeni and all the others, because they never came out and openly declared themselves otherwise, and we havent gone to them and asked them what they truly believe. And after all , Khomeni did used to call himself a muslim.

Mashaallah.

I don't understand what you are talking about. And you didn't answer my questions.

[Johnny]

Yes, allowed and sometimes obligatory, but with conditions. See this article from one of the Ulama of Iraq: http://www.alomah-alwasat.com/newsMore.php?id=45

[carfAball]

As salaamu alaikum.

How can these demonstrations and rebellions be condoned while we have this hadith which clearly forbids such behavior:

Narrated Junada bin Abi Umaiya: We entered upon 'Ubada bin As-Samit while he was sick. We said, "May Allah make you healthy. Will you tell us a Hadith you heard from the Prophet and by which Allah may make you benefit?" He said, "The Prophet called us and we gave him the Pledge of allegiance for Islam, and among the conditions on which he took the Pledge from us, was that we were to listen and obey (the orders) both at the time when we were active and at the time when we were tired, and at our difficult time and at our ease and to be obedient to the ruler and give him his right even if he did not give us our right, and not to fight against him unless we noticed him having open Kufr (disbelief) for which we would have a proof with us from Allah."

Salaams Tee

May Allah prove otherwise but these Arab "awakenings" will herald in an era of unprecendented anarchy chaos and killings...its better to stick with the devil you know...

Somebody gave the example of Hajjaj, and said one Sahabi rebelled, but countless others exercised sabr and urged others to do the same.

[Cengaeas]

can you please explain the context of the hadith to me.

Are you referring to the hadith that I mentioned? I think the hadith itself explains the context.

[Cengaeas]

Salaams Tee

May Allah prove otherwise but these Arab "awakenings" will herald in an era of unprecendented anarchy chaos and killings...its better to stick with the devil you know...

Somebody gave the example of Hajjaj, and said one Sahabi rebelled, but countless others exercised sabr and urged others to do the same.

Salaam Blackflagsarfaraz

In fact, the one who rebelled wasn't a Sahabi. He was a Taabi'i.

[Lebybynctisee]

I always get confused with this topic so can someone provide a fatwa from reliable scholars rather than just give their own understanding of Quran and Sunnah

1. If a ruler does not rule by Sharia, is he a disbeliever?

2. Rebellion is not allowed under legitimate Muslim ruler but how do you define an illegitmate ruler and what are you supposed to do with him?

[Cengaeas]

Yes, allowed and sometimes obligatory, but with conditions. See this article from one of the Ulama of Iraq: http://www.alomah-alwasat.com/newsMore.php?id=45

Why is he comparing the Muslims speaking out against the unbelieving Quraish to Muslims rebelling against their Muslim leaders???

[goctorsurger]

I always get confused with this topic so can someone provide a fatwa from reliable scholars rather than just give their own understanding of Quran and Sunnah

1. If a ruler does not rule by Sharia, is he a disbeliever?

2. Rebellion is not allowed under legitimate Muslim ruler but how do you define an illegitmate ruler and what are you supposed to do with him?

Salaam,
maybe this will assist.

The intent is not to stir a debate but rather to benefit; the Arabic and English are included.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...thkey=CLS_5rMJ

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...thkey=CLudyvwB

[Lorionasodi]

of course rebellion and overthrowing these kafir rulers is allowed. dont believe the government scholars and heretics.

Mauritania is the same place which recognizes Israel and cooperates with the USA. Its not really a place to learn anything other that arabic.

these hadith alone destroy all the doubts..

It is reported in the al-Jāmi’ as-Saĥīh
al-Bukhārī,

[حدثنا إسماعيل حدثنا بن وهب عن عمرو عن بكير عن بسر بن سعيد عن جنادة بن أبي أمية قال: دخلنا على عبادة بن الصامت وهو مريض قلنا: (أصلحك الله: حدث بحديث ينفعك الله به سمعته من النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم!)، قال دعانا النبي، صلى الله عليه وسلم، فبايعناه فقال فيما أخذ علينا أن بايعنا: «على السمع والطاعة، في منشطنا ومكرهنا، وعسرنا ويسرنا، وأثرة علينا، وأن لا ننازع الأمر أهله: إلا أن ترو كفرا بواحا عندكم من الله فيه برهان»].

Told us Isma’eel, told us Ibn Waĥb, from ‘Amr, from Bukayr, from Busrun Ibn Sa’eed, from Junāda Ibn Abi Umayah who said, “We entered upon ‘Ubāidah bin As-Samit while he was sick. We said, “May Allāh make you healthy. Will you tell us a Hadīth you heard from the Messenger and by which Allāh may make you benefit us?” He said, “The Messenger called us and we gave him the Pledge of allegiance for Islām, and among the conditions on which he took the Pledge from us, was that we were to listen and obey (the orders) both at the time when we were active and at the time when we were tired, and at our difficult time and at our ease and to be obedient to the ruler and give him his right even if he did not give us our right, and not to fight against him unless we noticed him having Kufr Bowwaĥ (open disbelief) for which we would have a proof with us from Allāh“.

[ireleda]

I heard there was a protest in Somalia, but they havent got rulers there so it kind of defeated the objective!! LOL

[Cengaeas]

Anas ibn Maalik reported:

The eminent Companions of the Mohamed (SAWS) forbade us by saying:

"Don't insult your rulers. Don't deceive them. Don't disobey them. Fear Allah and be patient. Verily the time is near."

حدثنا هدية بن عبد الوهاب ثنا الفضل بن موسى حدثنا حسين ابن واقد عن قيس بن وهب عن أنس بن مالك قال نهانا كبراؤنا من أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال
لا تسبوا امراءكم ولا تغشوهم ولا تبغضوهم واتقوا الله واصبروا فإن الأمر قريب

Allah says:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.

قال تعالى: يا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكم

[kaiayout]

Tee,

Muslims get these issues, which are not so clear all the time, explained to them by authentic scholars in order to make conclusions. Not from you, or any other anonymous person on the web.

No offense, just saying that so you know you're not making a case in which others will follow.


Congrats on making a thread about another topic. No pun intended.

[Cengaeas]

Tee,

Muslims get these issues, which are not so clear all the time, explained to them by authentic scholars in order to make conclusions. Not from you, or any other anonymous person on the web.

No offense, just saying that so you know you're not making a case in which others will follow.


Congrats on making a thread about another topic. No pun intended.

Are you the spokesperson for all Muslims to say what they get explained to them by whom?
It is my hope that Muslims follow what Allah and His Prophet (SAWS) said - not what I say or what you say.

[kaiayout]

Are you the spokesperson for all Muslims to say what they get explained to them by whom?
It is my hope that Muslims follow what Allah and His Prophet (SAWS) said - not what I say or what you say.

If I were the spokesperson then I would have explained the issue to you myself, now wouldn't I? But I'm not.

What you're hoping for is one thing. What you're doing is posting your understanding of what Allah and His rasool said. Everyone understands the implications of that.

[Cengaeas]

If I were the spokesperson then I would have explained the issue to you myself, now wouldn't I? But I'm not.

What you're hoping for is one thing. What you're doing is posting your understanding of what Allah and His rasool said. Everyone understands the implications of that.

Again you're speaking for everyone. What I just said to Verdana applies to you too.

[kaiayout]

Again you're speaking for everyone. What I just said to Verdana applies to you too.

On this issue, I speak for myself and if anyone else who happens to follow qualified scholarship in Deen, then my statement speaks for them also.

What, I can't laugh if I take some of the things you say to be funny?