[JonnTEN]

brother fusoos saheb I told you in the UK this is a very growing trend and bro the situation of divorcees is real bad. I personally know around at least 5-7 divorcees amongst my close relatives who are not married. You see if one looks at the earliest generations the divorce rate was very high even amongst the sahabah. The difference was that the divorcees in those days easily got married again usually in polygamous marriages. I know that the first 2 khalifahs sayidinah Abu bakr and Saydidinah Umar divorced at least 1 of their wives. We are facing a huge social problem and what I'm saying is due to our lack of care for divorcees many people are abusing the situation.

Umar you actually have a very good question here. Many of the ladies in polygamous marriages declare that they are single and then when the kuffar government officials see lots of kids running around outside wedlock it makes a complete mockery of the spirit of our sharia. You see Umar this is a complex issue and major problems have occured and are occuring. If our leaders are not willing to tackle such issues then what can be done?

[sapedotru]

Shaikh Fusoos wants the divorcees to sit at home without a halal husband. Shaikh Fusoos thinks its better they fall into haram relations and zina than be halal second wives because Shaikh Fusoos understands women the best. It's insulting for a woman to get a halal husband and waive of her rights (although this would save her from going into jahannum) but it's not insulting for her to go into haram relationships and zina.

Shaikh Fusoos has provided us with a great solution masha'Allah.

[FUNALA]

Brother London786, have you not found that here, in the UK, a man who takes on a second wife in this manner, where he is barely able to look after the first wife's financial needs and has children but spends little time with them or her, but takes on a second wife and expects her to waive her rights to equal time and maintenance is not at all helping a widow/divorcee but is actually creating a situation where he himself will end up leading a life of perpetual injustice and will end up having not one but two dissatisfied wives, children who are not only neglected and exposed to constant uncertainty but who grow up under the strain of their parents feuding, their mothers tears and depression and a second wife who will most likely change her mind after marriage and demand equal rights and will go to lengths to make sure she gets it?

Please step back, remove any positive or negative notions you have about polygamy and answer based on any experience you have or examples you have seen of this situation. Have the brothers of the forum moved from a stance where they not only promote polygamous marriages generally and without looking at individual cases, regardless of whether he is inclined to it, and irrespective of the state of his current marriage and other factors to a collective stance where you encourage him to take second wife even is he has no time and money for one wife in the hope that she waive her rights?

This is an honest question. Do not go for my jugular please. I am requesting that you take a step back and think of the whole picture with a clear head and tell me whether you really think this is a good idea and will mean he has two successful marriages? I personally feel, it is completely against the spirit of Islamic principles.

[JonnTEN]

Apa UmHasan in my own experience I've just seen bad experiences and I can't think of a good one. These are all the cases I know. I have not seen any long term marriages like this work. This is my own experience and I've highlighted the reasons and urged great caution in this matter. I have had phone calls in the middle of the night requesting me to do nikah etc and that is the situation we live in. Seriously what is a guy like me supposed to do when our community refuses to acknowledge the problem.

I have seen no good come about from the majority of such marriages. I know 1 brother who has 3 wives. His parents dont know about the other 2 wives and his other children. His first wife knows but his parents dont know. Imagine if this guy dies then what about his inheritence? How about the kids knowing their grandparents.

What I'm saying is we have a problem with divorcees. Now the solution??? Men can't afford 2 wives realistically unless the lady waives some maintanance costs. However if this happens there are major problems associated with this. I also agree that it goes against the spirit of shariah.

[kucheravka]

I do not think this is cheating the government. The government is against the Islamic rule of of having multiple wives. Fine if the government will not legally allow a woman to marry a man who is already married, then they can pay for her expenses. She will also not receive the governement-legal benefits of marriage (tax deductions, etc.).

Very interesting; !

[FUNALA]

Apa UmHasan in my own experience I've just seen bad experiences and I can't think of a good one. These are all the cases I know. I have not seen any long term marriages like this work. This is my own experience and I've highlighted the reasons and urged great caution in this matter. I have had phone calls in the middle of the night requesting me to do nikah etc and that is the situation we live in. Seriously what is a guy like me supposed to do when our community refuses to acknowledge the problem.

I have seen no good come about from the majority of such marriages. I know 1 brother who has 3 wives. His parents dont know about the other 2 wives and his other children. His first wife knows but his parents dont know. Imagine if this guy dies then what about his inheritence? How about the kids knowing their grandparents.

What I'm saying is we have a problem with divorcees. Now the solution??? Men can't afford 2 wives realistically unless the lady waives some maintanance costs. However if this happens there are major problems associated with this. I also agree that it goes against the spirit of shariah.

I completely agree. It may seem the ideal solution for a man who wants to fulfill his whims and desires without responsibilty but it is a completely naive and impractical proposal and one that will lead to numerous problems and negligence of rights.

[ZenDers]

I completely agree. It may seem the ideal solution for a man who wants to fulfill his whims and desires without responsibilty but it is a completely naive and impractical proposal and one that will lead to numerous problems and negligence of rights.

Not to mention it is highly insulting to divorcees and relatives of divorcee. Imagine a girl happily got married and then had to take divorce because her husband didnt want to maintain her financially and then one of these guys requests her to waive her financial responsibility so they can take her on as second wife, in a heroic attempt to save the Muslim Ummat from peril of divorce - what kind of impact would that have on her mentality and her self esteem? How do these people sleep at night? I wonder if they have sisters and mothers...

[JonnTEN]

sister ummhasan I agree so what should be done about the massive divorce rate? Let us be practical here and understand the very real problem we face.
Well Fusoos saheb what makes these divorcess so desparate that they accept such stupid conditions and waiving their rights? In my own experience many of the divorcess will agree to such an arrangement. I told you I know currently around 5-7 close relatives who are not married and divorced. Please give me a solution to their current problem.

[ZenDers]

Shaikh Fusoos wants the divorcees to sit at home without a halal husband. Shaikh Fusoos thinks its better they fall into haram relations and zina than be halal second wives because Shaikh Fusoos understands women the best. It's insulting for a woman to get a halal husband and waive of her rights (although this would save her from going into jahannum) but it's not insulting for her to go into haram relationships and zina.

Shaikh Fusoos has provided us with a great solution masha'Allah.

This is ridiculous. It is pure Neo-Conservative type logic.

[JonnTEN]

Actually sister ummHasan the situation is very complex. There are men who want to get married more than once....society frowns upon it so either they get a secret wife, commit zina etc. I think if society changed it's attitude towards 2nd marriages then it would prevent a lot of abuse. A lot of problems are not really related to maintenance as I told you the government provides housing in many cases. Even many people don't actually provide their first wife with housing it's the government who provides it (I'm talking about the UK). The problems are related to secrecy and lieing usually involving keeping it hidden from first wife and family. I heard one guy say something when we were discussing polygamy. He said have you heard of a guji keeping a legit 2nd wife?

The 2nd problem is about divorcees. We face a massive problem and it is not any better. If one looks at the earlier generations one will see a relatively high divorce rate in % but you see the society catered to divorcees and they were remarried again. Where they remarried to virgins? Were the marriages monogamous or polygamous involving these divorced ladies? I would like to know if you can answer my question as I'm a jahil.

[ZenDers]

sister ummhasan I agree so what should be done about the massive divorce rate? Let us be practical here and understand the very real problem we face.
Well Fusoos saheb what makes these divorcess so desparate that they accept such stupid conditions and waiving their rights? In my own experience many of the divorcess will agree to such an arrangement. I told you I know currently around 5-7 close relatives who are not married and divorced. Please give me a solution to their current problem.

I would be interested in some legit figures, not made up exaggerated accounts, but legit figures of divorces amongst sahaba and early generation of Muslims and possibly even till today. I want to know what divorce rate has been like. Maybe Ameer ul Mumineen Mufti Husain sahib (db) can help in this matter.

This is just off the cuff, but maybe we start solving the problem from its most elementary basic level - why. Why did the divorce occur? There are lots of factors invovled, lots of aspects go into the make up of a personality, in marriage two personalities have to coexist under one roof. What happened? Thats where I would start.

Each case is different - thats why we cant shove polygamy down the throat of every person we meet. Each person is different. Reviving polygamy I dont think is like reviving the use of miswaak by passing out free miswak after taraweeh prayers.

[JonnTEN]

Actually fusoos from what I heard from ulema myself the figures amongst sahabah was pretty high........this has been heard directly by me from many ulema. I await for clarification from the ulema. Let us take the asharai mubasahrah (the 10 blessed sahabah) and start with their marriages. See how many married divorcees and how many were virgin sahabiyaat and also how many marriages were polygamous or monogamous.

[ZenDers]

Actually fusoos from what I heard from ulema myself the figures amongst sahabah was pretty high........this has been heard directly by me from many ulema. I await for clarification from the ulema. Let us take the asharai mubasahrah (the 10 blessed sahabah) and start with their marriages. See how many married divorcees and how many were virgin sahabiyaat and also how many marriages were polygamous or monogamous.

Let us wait and see what is response from research scholars on this subject - divorce and remarriage rate amongst sahaba and early generation muslims.

[FUNALA]

The 2nd problem is about divorcees. We face a massive problem and it is not any better. If one looks at the earlier generations one will see a relatively high divorce rate in % but you see the society catered to divorcees and they were remarried again. Where they remarried to virgins? Were the marriages monogamous or polygamous involving these divorced ladies? I would like to know if you can answer my question as I'm a jahil.

I am also jaahila. May Allah increase my knowledge and wisdom, yours and all of our SF members.

You have asked a million dollar question. The answer cannot come from the limited capacity of my brain, but one thing we can do is support the widows and divorcees financially. Do your neighbourly duty if there is such a sister in your street, in your neighbourhood, or your town, then help her out financially or otherwise. Drop her kids off to school and madrasah along with your own and offer to pick them up. Do it through your mahrams. Shaytan is running through everyone's veins.

Offer to pay her gas, electricity bill. Why is that such a strange concept? You will be giving charity to a widow and an orphan, something that
is extremely encouraged in the Quran. If you can't afford it, then how are you going to afford her gas, electricity, petrol, food, council tax, clothes and phone bills too by taking her as a second wife?

Baby sit their kids when they are not well. Babysit their kids if they are going out to work in a halal environment to earn a crust and be financially independent.

Sisters can make friends with such women. Talk to them, make friends with them and offer then companionship. I've made friends with quite a few divorcees. I give them more of my time than the married sisters as they need more advice and friendship than the married sisters. Arrange classes, circles and support groups for them. Offer practical solutions alongside advice.

We need a society that takes care of such women and doesn't leave them to the State. A Muslim is giving and his spirit of charity is such that he doesn't ask for anything in return.

All the while you are helping these women practically, look for husbands for them. There are many brothers who also can't find wives and have been looking for a long time. What about them? Why is it so alien to encourage the sisters to marry these men as first wives instead of asking the poor sisters to make desperate concessions in return for a little occasional TLC as a second, third or fourth wife?

Please don't tell me there not many men like this. Just look around this forum and you'll see many. Practising brothers like hope1 and umar italy , who I both assume are unmarried- go find them a wife and she'll thank you for the rest of her life.

We need a halal, modest marriage agency to solve this problem. Where are the brothers that were planning one?

[JonnTEN]

Sister you made many great points some which I agree and disagree with. I'm not an intellectual person nor a writer so cannot really say much. All I'm saying is sister we have to be realistic. Umar my italian friend is in his mid 20s or so. Most of the divorcess are in their 30s. Let us be realistic and state that most men would prefer their first wife to be single unless somebody knows differently?

Yes communities should do more to help widows/divorcees. This is definitely correct. You have mentioned an important point of this having to be done through mahrams as I used to know some guys who would help households of muslim prisoners and trust me I was not pleased with their conduct. I also believe that instead of sending thousands and millions abroad in charity we need to help our local people first as mentioned in the madhab of imam shafi rh.

I find that practically looking for a husband for the divorcees will mostly be related to 2 types of people; fellow divorcees (the problem is many men prefer marrying a girl from back home after getting divorced) or they enter into polygamous marriages. I think we have to be realistic and state that women who are divorced are unlikely to find a single guy in his early 20s unless they want to marry a guy from back home but then this brings up many other social issues like the guy uses her for a passport etc as is the case with many guys.

[FUNALA]

Whar about following the Prophet's example of marrying an older women?

There are many sisters in their twenties who need a bloke in his twenties, many sisters in thier thirties who need a bloke in his thirties and many girls in their fourties etc etc. So many women divorce at a young age now that its wrong to assume divorcees are in their '30s. So many sisters in their 20's who are desperate to find a husband as their biological clock goes tick tock. There is a partner out there for every one - they just need to find each other and that is what is proving to be the difficult part.

[Poothevokprot]

on the one hand men want the second wives to waive some of their rights and then also do not want them to work..........

The reality is,if a woman is financially independant,then most likely she is working which some poeple on here frown upon.

[syncFisee]

each case is different - thats why we cant shove polygamy down the throat of every person we meet.
Each person is different. Reviving polygamy i dont think is like reviving the use of miswaak by passing out free
miswak after taraweeh prayers.

Golden letters?

[Poothevokprot]

I am also jaahila. May Allah increase my knowledge and wisdom, yours and all of our SF members.

You have asked a million dollar question. The answer cannot come from the limited capacity of my brain, but one thing we can do is support the widows and divorcees financially. Do your neighbourly duty if there is such a sister in your street, in your neighbourhood, or your town, then help her out financially or otherwise. Drop her kids off to school and madrasah along with your own and offer to pick them up. Do it through your mahrams. Shaytan is running through everyone's veins.

Offer to pay her gas, electricity bill. Why is that such a strange concept? You will be giving charity to a widow and an orphan, something that
is extremely encouraged in the Quran. If you can't afford it, then how are you going to afford her gas, electricity, petrol, food, council tax, clothes and phone bills too by taking her as a second wife?

Baby sit their kids when they are not well. Babysit their kids if they are going out to work in a halal environment to earn a crust and be financially independent.

Sisters can make friends with such women. Talk to them, make friends with them and offer then companionship. I've made friends with quite a few divorcees. I give them more of my time than the married sisters as they need more advice and friendship than the married sisters. Arrange classes, circles and support groups for them. Offer practical solutions alongside advice.

We need a society that takes care of such women and doesn't leave them to the State. A Muslim is giving and his spirit of charity is such that he doesn't ask for anything in return.

All the while you are helping these women practically, look for husbands for them. There are many brothers who also can't find wives and have been looking for a long time. What about them? Why is it so alien to encourage the sisters to marry these men as first wives instead of asking the poor sisters to make desperate concessions in return for a little occasional TLC as a second, third or fourth wife?

Please don't tell me there not many men like this. Just look around this forum and you'll see many. Practising brothers like hope1 and umar italy , who I both assume are unmarried- go find them a wife and she'll thank you for the rest of her life.

We need a halal, modest marriage agency to solve this problem. Where are the brothers that were planning one?

and this is why, women need to be encouraged to take a active part in our communities and not told to just stay inside the house................

its just very sad that divorced women are tarred with a brush men are generally not.

[Poothevokprot]

The scholars,may Allah bless them,probably want to do more on this issue but the blowback from the community is not worth it. As I said, some time agi, a scholar came to our community and spoke about certain issues with regards to marriage,specifically the in laws and the khidmat which is EXPECTED(in asian communities) to be done by the daughter in laws. He weren't invited again.........LOL

There are too many different facets on why the divorce rate is so high these days, one is that its simply become acceptable to a certain degree,whereas in our parents generation,it was deemed something to be ashamed of and thus our parents stuck it out. But thats not to say a women should stay in a abusive marriage.