Women working, problem of divorce, polygamy and some other issues
 

One of the threads recently got me thinking and I thought I'd share some random points;

1. There is no doubt about it that there is a big fitna with regards to women working outside the house. This has lead to many many problems which I encounter on an almost daily basis. The poor children are left with kuffar nannies and miss the love and tarbiyat of the mother. A lady sees herself as independent and sometimes not in need of a man. People are nowadays bragging about the haram jobs that their daughters work in. Example we had some family friend who was getting married to some school teacher and the family were so happy and kept emphasizing the fact that the lady is a teacher. I asked them which school she teaches at and I knew the school very well. The actual school is a mixed school from the age of 11-18 and this is where she teaches. I know for a fact that most boys that age going through puberty get very excited quickly. The teacher being in her early 20s would be getting a lot of attention from these boys. But nope instead of looking at this the family is happy that she is a teacher. There is no doubt that the majority of women work in haram jobs where their deen is compromised to a certain extent with a few exceptions. In my own workplace I regularly see the flirtatious behaviiour of most ladies. They giggle, laugh, speak more than neccesary etc. Where I work closeby just within earshot is the office of one of the directors who happens to be a muslim lady. I regularly see men going to her office and chatting her up and having long conversations which are not neccesary and all I can hear are giggles and laughs. The same kind of guys who do not even try to respond to the salam of male collegues will go out of their way to chat up these ladies. There is only 1 lady in my whole working life who I have seen is straight to the point. She mashallah does not chit chat and keeps conversation to the minimum and I've never seen her laugh at men. I remember recently we had to go away for some event away from our workplace to another city over 100 miles away. All the other ladies happily volunteered going away without their mahram and staying in a hotel for days on end but this lady she refused as she said her family did not allow her. However such ladies in my own experience are very rare.

2. I am disgusted that nowadays men live off the wages of ladies. I know many girls who have been rejected solely based on the fact that they don't work. Nowadays many guys and families are looking for working girls. This is an ever increasing problem. I remember a friend of mine whose aunt got married at the age of 37. I asked him why so late and he told me that she was paying the mortgage and was the highest earner. A friend of mine told me that he wanted to marry a non-working girl but his family insisted on a girl who works full time.

3. There is a large number of girls who are not married due to divorce, other factors etc. Now what can be done about these girls? Now one solution is propagating polygamy but the problem comes is that many girls will want their own place OR their families will want their daughters to have their own house. The point is that in many situations this is not really possible for the vast majority of the people and thus I THINK what brother nomadic was saying was that instead of these girls remaining single the girls should consider waiving their rights......

Now in my own experience (not me but those I know) this involves waiving 2 rights...equal allowance and giving equal time. Now before I start on this I do not recommend this practice to anybody unless it is some sort of last resort. The reasons are many but let me share a few stories with you..........

There was some convert sister with a few kids. She accepted the fact that it was very unlikely that she would be taken as the only wife due to her AGE and number of kids. She agreed on polygamy and she had her own house which was given to her by the government due to her kids and being a single parent. Now this sister she was willing to get married without wanting a penny from the guy but what she wanted was some occasional company. She was flexible with regards to the number of nights (maybe she was persuaded by the men). Now this unfortunate sister got married around 10 times. I tell you why...because the guys were having a field day. No worry about maintanance and they did not need to spend time with her. They would come whenever they felt like it. The problem with this arrangement was that most guys who married her did it secretly and over little things would get divorce. The point is she had little protection. I mean in a country like syria or the arab countries where you will lose a massive mehr which you will probably never earn in your life then you will think twice about leaving a lady over petty things but these guys knew this was not the case with this lady. Also many times when a husband and wife have problems some middle people who are responsible elders try to broker some deal. In this case as there are no middle people and the marriage is a secret there is no such incentive. Another factor is that many people don't divorce over petty things due to the sake of the community (saving face) or due to the pressure of parents and thus they tolerate a lot more. However in this secret marriage this was not the case. Imagine if the guy dies? Inheritence? So anyway after getting divorced about 10 times the sister decided that she would only marry a man who would be open with the marriage to his family and would give her equal number of nights.

Another story. A friend of mine got married to some lady. He told her he would help her pay bills and cover some costs but he has kept this marriage secret from both wives. The lady does not need accomdation as it is already provided by the government. The brother does a lot of lieing etc.


Now the point is we have some scenarios. I am personally 100% against women waiving their rights but if a lady decides to do so who am I to object. In most cases there is some element of haram involved. Maybe the guy has chatted her up so much that she falls madly in love and is willing to accept any conditions. There are however some ladies who are older ladies and are resigned to the fact that if they demand all their rights they will not get a husband even in a polygamous relationship and thus they give up all their rights.

However in my own experience I have seen madkalis abuse this so much and this has resulted in many divorces etc. These are just some random points but I'm trying to see both sides of the story.

i.e. if a lady demands all her rights she will not find a husband. If she foregoes some rights she is likely to get abused in many ways. I THINK that if a lady foregoes the right of accomodation (as she already has her own house provided by the government and some other maintance) then it can be accepted in some ways as there is no way a guy can afford to pay in most cases for separate accomadation however I personally believe that the dangers of secret marriages, and foregoing the equal nights are even more problematic issues.

Sorry for my incoherent post but these are just some random thoughts.

^

I cannot comment on all the points, but perhaps some consideration can be given to one of the points:

In many of the countries today including Muslim ones, there is really no way that one salary will cover all the costs of living. We are not talking about lavish lifestyles either, but what is considered to be acceptable (the husband, wife, and children living in one apartment of their own, not sharing the apartment with strangers (which is common in the UAE among expats but has its own obvious Haram things), or living in a joint family (also potentially Haram in many cases especially if the man's family is not religious)).

So what is the solution in such a case, where the choice is basically between different 'types' of unacceptable things?

I cannot comment about the other things now though, but Insha Allah at a later time.

As-salamu ´alaykum,

1. You are right, and there are many aspects to it. Parents encouraging materialism more than Deen, women (and families) demanding more of a husband than is reasonable. When the man "fails", the woman leads herself into thinking that she can do it "without" men, while compromising her Deen. Part to blame for this is the Deen of Feminism. In addition to this, children are raised by people who do not care for their Akhira (according to Islamic standards), and strangers do half the raising of the kids, the parents/family the other half. That is those who have families that are caring for their Akhira. I believe it comes down to two main points: 1) Ignorance, 2) The Qibla of the heart being the Makhluq and not the Khaliq.

2. I am sure that there are various reasons behind this phenomenon. I think that one plausable explanation is that since men are expected/required to do more than what is reasonable, in addition to it being hard to provide for a family on one salary, they feel that it's only fair that the woman chips in. This leads women into thinking they have to working to easier find a spouse. And with the high divorce rates, they want something to fall back on in case they end up as single mothers. And again, the Deen of Feminism has erroneously lead a lot of women (and men) to look at the role of a housewife as something low and servitude to the men, something unworthy of a honorable and respectful woman. Unfortunate but true.

3. Housing and living expenses are sky high in many if not most countries. Having and giving a second wife her rights is becoming increasingly hard. As for divorced women getting remarried, most men (and families) quite frankly have a very twisted view of this concept as a whole.

You have raised many important aspects of second marriages and secret marriages. I find it sad that although so many people have read the thread, none save one brother took time and effort to actually post, not even acknowledging the importance of the points that you raised. I hope that it made something reflect if nothing else.

wassalam

actually brother rifai what made me comment on this was a few factors. I have literally seen our social system destroyed in most parts of the world. People bark on about salafis, brelvis and other issues but these more important social issues are totally ignored. In the Muslim country that I'm staying in at the moment the divorce rate is 46%. Now imagine this? Most of these divorces are within 1 year. So we have a very real problem of divorcees.

1. With regards to this first point I would like to say jazakallah khairan to the late mufti of saudi arabia shaykh Abdul aziz bin baz rh who gave a clear fatwa that its haram to employ non-muslim nannies to look after muslim children. What you mentioned about feminism is very true. At the place where I'm working at for 1 one of the human resource processes a lady was asking me many questions amongst them what does my wife do. I proudly told her she is a house wife and you should have seen a look on this lady's face. Feminism has really affected the masses and needs to be vigorously refuted.

2. A major problem is that it is difficult to live off one salary and I agree to a certain extent but in many cases it is very possible. All it requires is a change of lifestyle. Maybe we will have to do without the 5 star hotels and hajj and umrahs every year and going holiday twice a year. My parents generation mostly lived on 1 wage and now the new generation seriously needs to look at its lifestyle. Yes, if somebody has the money you can buy a BMW or eat out at the most expensive restaurants each day if you want but if one is a normal person I think there needs to be some lifestyle changes. Families need to budget etc.

3. Refai this is why I mentioned that in places like the UK there is a unique system where divorcees or single mothers are mostly given accommodation so a man in theory can have this right waived. What I'm saying is that we have a massive problem of divorcees. If divorcees are very picky they will not find a husband in realistic terms. If the government is paying for housing etc then instead of these ladies expecting equality in terms of allowance they should waive certain rights like the 2 that I mentioned (i.e. of providing shelter, as the ladies already have shelter or equal number of nights though this 2nd one is very problematic and could lead to a lot of problems from my own experience). what I'm saying is that the plight of divorcees is very bad. Imagine 46% in the muslim arab country I'm living in. What I've seen in the UK is that the following can realistically work;

If a divorcee has children and is past the age of 30 it is very unlikely that she will find a husband who will not be already married. Now most of the guys cannot afford to maintain her and give equality in terms of maintenance costs so what option does she have? She can give up some right to maintenance as her housing is already paid for OR she already has some halal job but I believe that everything should be done in a transparent way i.e. not in secret. The problem comes is that these ladies are neglected for years on end and they get a bit desperate (some of them) and they want some company (note this desperation is not one of a physical nature but generally more of companionship). At this stage what happens some pervert comes along and starts chatting up the lady and flattering her either for a passport or to fulfill his desires (yes most men). She falls for this person and gives up all her rights after being sweet talked and after sometime the same person does this again with some other lady.........

Now the point is there is this very very REAL problem.

In my own experience divorcees are the easiest to abuse. We have to be realistic and think of some solution. A friend of mine pays the full rent for his first wife and gives full maintenance. With the 2nd wife he just pays for bills (electricity and gas) and gives her some spending money each week. The 2nd wife is however happy with such an arrangement as it would be impossible for her to demand exactly the same as the first wife. She is grateful for the little support that she receives.

As-Salamu ´alaykum,

I agree with what you are saying.

In many places, at least in the West, things have gotten a lot more expensive. What was possible in our parents or grandparents generations is a lot harder than now, unless as in the case of the UK, the second wife is a divorced single mother. It is possible, at least for a lot of people (UK or elsewhere). Of course everyone has different circumstances so it's hard to make an all-inclusive statement. But to add to it, there are quite a few cases where the man is ok with providing for the family, while understanding that he will not live lavishly, but the wife insists, she wants all the flashy stuff, the gadgets, the 5-star hotels etc. People are not willing to make that change of lifestyle, and therefore go into haram jobs and environments. This is an expensive sacrifice, if only people realized.

You are right that women must be realistic, but we also need to work on the way divorced women are perceived by our communities. It's surely not fair to blame them as a group, and treat them less, when we obviously know that there are many men out there who mistreat their wives and daughters. And yes, the secrecy is problematic. It seldom leads to anything good. Since it takes quite a bit to take care of two wives with children (one's own or not), it may be advisable to reconsider for those men who dare not tell their first wife of their intentions.

wa'Llahu a'lam

What?!? Is this true? This person is saying that the girls should wave their rights rather than remain single??? Did I read that right?

brother fusoos saheb we are talking about the growing number of divorcees and the solution. He did not mention completely waiving their rights but maybe the right of maintenance so that a man could afford to marry them as a 2nd wife. This however needs to be done with a lot of caution but still if anybody has any other solutions then please let us know as the plight of divorcees is very very bad. I can't think of many divorcees who got married a 2nd time without marrying a freshie who just wants a british passport.

Wah, Masha'Allah, what can I say, I am at a loss for words - truly a Mujadidana Haakimana perspective. Yes, this is definitely a great solution and will go down in the books of history as the single idea that saved ummat from peril. Please keep meditating and pondering and coming up with more of these bright ideas to save ummath e muslimah - we are all counting on such ideas to help us.

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Here i have seen lots of marriages between divorcees. If a lady is divorced then the parents search for a suitable divorced man and do Nikah. Its very common here. But people here are less eager to marry divorcees with children, both men and women.

hazrat fusoos saab you are the mujaddida hakeemmiya person as you are linked to the silsila of hazrat hakim ul ummat who diagnosed these social issues in his time. Tell me bro what can be done about the 46% of divorced ladies in my country? Do some muraqabah shaykh and come with some conclusion.

Brother London

You are talking about the sacred state of marriage as you are talking about any wordly thing. You are so blind that you cannot see the message of Allah, the all knowing, the all wise?

The reason why all these problems with marriage are occurring is because people have stopped listening to Allah's word in the Quran. They see marriage as something that does not need love and respect. They see it more as a "business deal", a way to becoming financially solid or to be able to benefit from welfare.

If a man loves and respect a woman and a woman loves and respect a man, their marriage is to the end, with or without money or work.

brother Lemon jazakallah khairan for the advice. Now I agree with what you have said 100% but this does not change the fact that we currently have many divorcees. What can we do in this regard?

I think you are over simplifying the situation and at best can only apply the marriage to a 'business deal' to which you have specifically witnessed a marriage breakdown due to this reasoning.

I went to house yesterday where the wife had left the husband with the 3 children and filing for divorce. The situation had nothing to do with money!
I can name you a religious practising couple who do not have an issue with money but have been on the brink of divorce several times.

So for most it may be a case of not listening to Allah's word in the Quran but my experience of these situations first hand show me that it is the lack of Quran and Sunnah express through the methodology of dawah and Tasawuff.

I think it is too vast to explain in this thread alone. But for those who do not understand what I am simply saying is 'adopting the character' of the beloved Prophet of Allah [Peace be upon him]. For a more in depth explanation:

The Ulema state that the first command of Allah in the Quran after Salah is consultation. Since in Surah Baqarah states "Who believe in the Ghaib and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and spend out of what we have provided for them". The second portion of the verse is a direct reference to Zakah and zakah in its complexity cannot be given without consultation. So consultation is the second command of Allah especially in financial matters. Thus in a conclusion what difference and impact would consultation learnt from the people of knowledge have on a marriage? especially if a married couple or an entire family consulted on all financial dealings of the household? Do not underestimate how powerful this one application is.

Moving onto 'clearer instructions/advice/communication'. A lot of relationships do not have good communication, again this stems from not having a character like the beloved Prophet of Allah [peace be upon him]. The Arabic language in design is an explicit language which has the ability to explain in words exactly what one is feeling or thinking. A lot of languages evolved from Arabic. The beloved Prophet [peace be upon him] was always clear in his communication and further ensured that he did communicate with his wives whether talking or even just listening....

I could go on......

Salaam brother London786

Honestly, brother, I don't know. I weep when I see what is happening to the world. People getting divorced left and right. I do not weep for them, I weep for their children who will inshallah grow in a happy environment eventhough.

I do think however that we must spread the "love and respect" message. This doesnt sound like a very orthodox islamic approach, but let's face it. This problem of not respecting what marriage stands for goes over all borders. You can find it in almost all countries and religions, mainly because of western influence. The muslim community has been put under burdens that we did not create, we are living in a secular society with secular problems trying to solve them by using Allah's guidance. To be honest with you I find it extremely unfair.
But that does not mean the more strict sharia approach is the way to go either, we cannot deny that in countries with sharia there is a degree of gender oppression. We need to find a form that will suit both parties. I know this may sound a little extreme, but like I said, for the sake of the children we need to act, and if extreme measures must be taken, so be it. I do not like to see children suffer.

I think we need to spread the message that marriage must be based on love and respect, otherwise you will end up with wives nagging the husband because he lost his job or the man mis-using his financial power to marry a woman who is in dire need. I am blessed with Allah to have found such a partner who no matter what will stand by my side. I too will love and respect my wife until the day I am taken away from this world.

The law of the Quran shows us that we must do our outmost to not divorce. We must seek help from others, we must think through our decisions carefully before taking action. As a muslim I must help my brothers and sisters, as a muslim I have an obligation to help those in need.

[QUOTE=gabriel;679741]I think you are over simplifying the situation and at best can only apply the marriage to a 'business deal' to which you have specifically witnessed a marriage breakdown due to this reasoning.
QUOTE]

Salaam brother gabriel

Yes, you are absolutely correct, I am over simplifying due to the complexity of the problem. I gave extreme examples just to show. And yes I think you are correct that it is the lack of Quran and sunnah.

The guidance for example second, third or fourth wife seems to sometimes have been totally forgotten. The Quran puts the orphan in the center and if we fear mistreatment of the orphan we should marry the mother. This is not for you, male or female. It is for the fatherless child. The John Doe muslim seems to have forgotten this.

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London Sahab, genuine question: this wouldn't about to cheating to the government, would it?

As the lady would have to declare she's single and not married in order to receive the benefits, while in reality she would be married, although only Islamically, not with a civil marriage..

Maybe the point is all here: since what is considered is civil marriage, she wouldn't actually be married for the English law, so she being the second wife in an Islamic marriage would be something different and thus she wouldn't be considered cheating?...

I would like to hear your take on this..

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I do not think this is cheating the government. The government is against the Islamic rule of of having multiple wives. Fine if the government will not legally allow a woman to marry a man who is already married, then they can pay for her expenses. She will also not receive the governement-legal benefits of marriage (tax deductions, etc.).

Different erea has different culture. I think the government should have different policy.

[QUOTE=London786;679695]brother fusoos saheb we are talking about the growing number of divorcees and the solution. He did not mention completely waiving their rights but maybe the right of maintenance so that a man could afford to marry them as a 2nd wife.QUOTE]

I think that this is not only insulting to women but also insulting to brothers who have a divorced sister/mother at home. Encouraging this type of practice is like taking advantage of the situation and profiting off of a bad situation, kicking a person when they are down. The person who is encouraging this practice definitely has no idea about the nature of a woman and should not even sit near a woman let alone marry one; even if a woman is a millionaire she needs to feel the support of a man. This is natural in women. They need to feel the support and strength of a man, the idea of protection. I am not an alim so maybe we can ask the Ulama and Mashaikh of SF if this should be encouraged, but something in my heart tells me that our Ulama and Mashaikh do not have this type of approach to polygamy and that this is definitely not a solution for the divorce plague. This is no solution, this is taking advantage of the situation. To me it even sounds like borderline Mu'ta practice. People with such solutions should not play the role of Captain Planet of Ummat but maybe study under Ulama and stay in the company of Mashaikh for long time.