[Wezfyowk]

Salamu aleykum
What do the Deobandis say about using astronomical calculations to establish the beginning and the end of Ramadan?

Many of the turkish masjids do it where I live. Are there any deobandi scholars who holds this opinion?

[MinisuipGaicai]

here's an article from Sheikh Ibrahim

http://www.madania.org/media/articles/MoonSighting.pdf

[Wezfyowk]

Jazakumu Allahu khayran

Are there other opinions among the Deobandis?

[RussellPG]

Jazakumu Allahu khayran

Are there other opinions among the Deobandis?

http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/

[gennnniiikk]

here's an article from Sheikh Ibrahim

http://www.madania.org/media/articles/MoonSighting.pdf

I like this article. in Cape Town south africa they have a new thing over the past few years. a group that follows the Makkah. so now we call them Makkies & the rest of us are moonies. It was mentioned that these differences were once initiated by non muslims trying to devide muslims.

however the majority of South African scholars have one moon sighting & infact efforts were made to make the whold of southern africa follow one moon sighting. it was mentioned in the article about unerversil sighting & that it wouldnt work, but this is how it starts.

[Wezfyowk]

So there isnt an opinion stating that we are allowed to use calculations to establish the beginning of Ramadan? Does any one know how the Turkish scholars reached that conclusion, and how they proved it refering back to the books of the madhhab?

[gennnniiikk]

So there isnt an opinion stating that we are allowed to use calculations to establish the beginning of Ramadan? Does any one know how the Turkish scholars reached that conclusion, and how they proved it refering back to the books of the madhhab?

Secularism.

[Wezfyowk]

Hm, maybe, but are you aware of the fact that al-Ramli is quite open to calculations (even if there are some major differences between his opinion and the opinion of the Turkish scholars)

[MinisuipGaicai]

Hm, maybe, but are you aware of the fact that al-Ramli is quite open to calculations (even if there are some major differences between his opinion and the opinion of the Turkish scholars)

Abbe. can you share?

[Wezfyowk]

Salam aleikum
In Nayl al-Raja (sharh of the Safina) it says:
وزاد الرملي كوالده أمرا ثامنا وهو وجوبه على من عرف الهلال بحسابه أو تنجيمه وكذا من اعتقد صدقهما

Al-Ramli, and his father, added a eighth factor (to determine when Ramadan starts): its obligatory for a person who calculates (munajjim and haasib) the birth of the moon to fast and it’s also obligatory upon anyone who believes that their calculations are correct. (sorry for the translation)

In the hashiya of al-Nihaya its mentioned that al-Shihab al-Ramli was asked if this can be applied to a situation when the astronomer is certain that the moon is born and that it’s possible to see it with the eye, or if it applies to a situation when the moon is born but can’t be seen or when its born and the astronomer is not sure if it can be seen or not. He answered that it applies to all three situations.

But al-Ramli mentions that calculations can’t be used to force everyone in a country to fast. It applies only on a personal level, not on societal level.

[MinisuipGaicai]

Malaysia will start fasting on Wednesday (Aug 11) based on calculations. Wallahu a'lam.

Abbe for the insights. But so far, most of the Deobandi Ulama' that I've met, they all follow moonsighting. Maybe if I meet them for Ramadhan I can ask them about this and see if there is a different opinion.

[ZZtop]

Zaytuna have changed their position from local moonsighting to global moonsighting: http://www.crescentwatch.org/cgi-bin...bmit=Go&a_id=7

[Wezfyowk]

Ok, Jazakumu Allahu khayran.

[gennnniiikk]

Salam aleikum
In Nayl al-Raja (sharh of the Safina) it says:
وزاد الرملي كوالده أمرا ثامنا وهو وجوبه على من عرف الهلال بحسابه أو تنجيمه وكذا من اعتقد صدقهما

Al-Ramli, and his father, added a eighth factor (to determine when Ramadan starts): its obligatory for a person who calculates (munajjim and haasib) the birth of the moon to fast and it’s also obligatory upon anyone who believes that their calculations are correct. (sorry for the translation)

In the hashiya of al-Nihaya its mentioned that al-Shihab al-Ramli was asked if this can be applied to a situation when the astronomer is certain that the moon is born and that it’s possible to see it with the eye, or if it applies to a situation when the moon is born but can’t be seen or when its born and the astronomer is not sure if it can be seen or not. He answered that it applies to all three situations.

But al-Ramli mentions that calculations can’t be used to force everyone in a country to fast. It applies only on a personal level, not on societal level.

I was going to say that it is only for the one who makes the calculation & fasting would become waajib for him only. So in Imaam Ramli's view as soon as the moon is born & you are able to calculate then it is wajib for you to fast? this is a question sorry.

Is Imam Ramli the only one of the shawafi with this view...... so in Egypt where Imam Ramli is followed do the practice this. ......
most Shafi' follow ibn Hajar so maybe that is why we work with sighting though.

[gennnniiikk]

Zaytuna have changed their position from local moonsighting to global moonsighting: http://www.crescentwatch.org/cgi-bin...bmit=Go&a_id=7

so who would they follow in moon sighting. I mean if they were to follow Saudi then they should concider that saudi will never follow their moon sighting.

I had no idea South East Asia would work with calculation. we will only fast tomorrow insha Allah because we have a moon sighting council & they have the most beatiful tridition. they go out to the beach & perform maghrib over there & then look for the moon & when sighted the amir would call all the ulama councils & then we all celebrate together. the men at the beach would start special dua & salawaat for Ramadhan which is from our triditions in SA & then on eid they would be doing the takbeer at the beach.

[Wezfyowk]

I was going to say that it is only for the one who makes the calculation & fasting would become waajib for him only. So in Imaam Ramli's view as soon as the moon is born & you are able to calculate then it is wajib for you to fast? this is a question sorry. Yes, according to al-Ramli and his father, rahimahuma Allah, its wajib for the astronomer and the one who believes him.

Is Imam Ramli the only one of the shawafi with this view...... so in Egypt where Imam Ramli is followed do the practice this. ......
most Shafi' follow ibn Hajar so maybe that is why we work with sighting though. I dont know if anyone else except for al-Ramli and his father holds the view that its wajib. But Ibn al-Rif'a, al-Zarkashi and al-Subki say that its valid to fast reliying on calculations (Bughyat al-Mustarshidin)

[gennnniiikk]

Yes, according to al-Ramli and his father, rahimahuma Allah, its wajib for the astronomer and the one who believes him.



I dont know if anyone else except for al-Ramli and his father holds the view that its wajib. But Ibn al-Rif'a, al-Zarkashi and al-Subki say that its valid to fast reliying on calculations (Bughyat al-Mustarshidin)

just thought of this too. when a person is standed without an idea of where he is in the world- he gets a feeling that it is Ramadhan & with some calculation (counting days or whatever), it is also wajib for him to fast. could this not be the actual calculation spoken about by Imam ramli. I think this also came up in Safina. so sidi do you concider calculation or do you stick to the majority.

[Wezfyowk]

Salam aleikum
No, thats a different way to determine when Ramadan starts.

It depends. This year everyone (Arabs, Turks and Deobandis) in my city started to fast so I decided to follow al-Ramlis opinion.

[gennnniiikk]

I dont understand why deobandis are working with calculation, in South Africa they strict against just following Saudi & following calcalation for that matter. the only calculation used is for the sake of knowing when to go out & seek the moon. however the moon sighting is done by non Deobandis & everyone follows it. even the berelwis. it was just one year that a deobandi sighted the moon & the berelwis refused to follow & they declared only 3hours before fajr that they were going to fast-missed taraweeh also.

[MinisuipGaicai]

Salam aleikum
No, thats a different way to determine when Ramadan starts.

It depends. This year everyone (Arabs, Turks and Deobandis) in my city started to fast so I decided to follow al-Ramlis opinion.

I've asked the Alim and he said the hadith is clear (like there is 4 raka'ah in Zuhr) and there is no point of ikhtilaf.