[66paptroump]

Greetings,

I've been studying islam for a while, i was wondering what is the basis for having an unbroken chain back to Muhammad. why is it necessary? and does it equate to truthfulness? catholics and orthodox christians say they have an unbroken chain back to jesus, and I ask them the same question, why is it necessary and does it equate to truth?

I am not personally convinced that an unbroken chain back to muhammad necessarily equates to truth. Did not the mutazila have a unbroken chain back to Muhammad, did not the khawatij also, what about the shia? yet they are considered deviants according to sunni muslims?

I would like to know the above, but I guess my ultimate question, what is the basis of truth according to sunni muslim? How do you determine truth from falsehood? And is there an ultimate truth?

Thanks,

TruthFinder

[EmpaccalGah]

Welcome to the forum.I hope you benefit from your stay here.

You have raised an interesting question though i would like to point towards an error which is present in the methodology you have adopted to address the first assertion you have made in your post. It is the epistemic of any rational person , especially for those who are looking for the truth , to be objective in their study of the stuff relevant to their research. Objectivity comes from looking into the agreed upon scripture which is with us through an undisputed and unbroken chain ie Quran. This book , so much revered by the Muslims , has a tall claim about itself that it is the book of the one and only God and judging that claim also judges the truth-hood of Prophet Muhammad as he also made the same claim about Quran.
For example , if i had to address the question "What form of democracy is there in America and which party is justified in its claim of upholding the true democratic values?" and i start with reading the manifestos of the Democrats and Republicans to answer my question , then obviously that will not be an objective analysis of the question. However , if i pick the American constitution and after absorbing the various pretensions it makes about democracy i analyze the claims of the Democrats and Republicans , that will be a fair and rational approach from my side.

There is a verse in Quran which says Fa Alamaha Fajooraha wa Taqwaha " And (God) inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it. The undesirable discrimination between right and wrong , truth and falsehood exists in our very nature as described by Quran. The issue of "basis for truth" is not a minor one as the presence of a life hereafter in which punishments for bad deeds shall be given , necessitates it for a true religion that it makes its case so evident to humans that if after that one rejects it , he makes himself justifiably liable for the punishment of hereafter which Islam calls Kuffr . The amount of ambiguity found in various religions which makes them unacceptable for human nature makes their claim of punishment in hereafter immoral and the falsification of the concept of hereafter falsifies the whole religion. Islam on the other hand provides a conclusive argument for its truth and the evidence matches so well with human nature that it testifies the truth of Islam.

[66paptroump]

Welcome to the forum.I hope you benefit from your stay here.

You have raised an interesting question though i would like to point towards an error which is present in the methodology you have adopted to address the first assertion you have made in your post. It is the epistemic of any rational person , especially for those who are looking for the truth , to be objective in their study of the stuff relevant to their research. Objectivity comes from looking into the agreed upon scripture which is with us through an undisputed and unbroken chain ie Quran. This book , so much revered by the Muslims , has a tall claim about itself that it is the book of the one and only Godand judging that claim also judges the truth-hood of Prophet Muhammad as he also made the same claim about that Quran.
For example , if i had to adress the question "What form of democracy is there in America and which party is justified in its claim of upholding the true democratic values?" and i start with reading the manifestos of the Democrats and Republicans to answer my question , then obviously that will not be an objective analysis of the question. However , if i pick the American constitution and after absorbing the various pretension it makes about democracy and
then i analyze the claims of the Democrats and Republicans , that will be a fair and rational approach from my side.
There is a verse in Quran regarding which says Fa Alamaha Fajooraha wa Taqwaha " And (God) inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it. The undesirable discrimination between right and wrong , truth and falsehood exists in our very nature as described by Quran. The issue of "basis for truth" is not a minor one as the presence of a life hereafter in which punishments for bad deeds shall be given , necessitates it for a true religion that it makes its case so evident to humans that if after that one rejects it , he makes himself justifiably liable for the punishment of hereafter which Islam calls Kuffr . The amount of ambiguity found in various religions which makes them unacceptable for human nature makes their claim of punishment in hereafter immoral and the falsification of the concept of hereafter falsifies the whole religion. Islam on the other hand provides a conclusive argument for its truth and the evidence matches so well with human nature that it testifies the truth of Islam.

What I understand:

1) The basis of truth in Islam, is the Quran.
2) Its truth can confirmed by nature of man agreeing with it.


So would you say, man would naturally agree with the Quran. (I'll have to go back and read it with this in mind)

However it appears the nature man does not necessarily agree with the interpretation of the Quran. As is evident with the various sects of Islam, although agreeing with the Quran, seem to disagree with its understanding. If true...

How do you determine what is true from among the different sects? Who is right?

[EmpaccalGah]

What I understand:

1) The basis of truth in Islam, is the Quran.
2) Its truth can confirmed by nature of man agreeing with it.


So would you say, man would naturally agree with the Quran. (I'll have to go back and read it with this in mind)

However it appears the nature man does not necessarily agree with the interpretation of the Quran. As is evident with the various sects of Islam, although agreeing with the Quran, seem to disagree with its understanding. If true...

How do you determine what is true from among the different sects? Who is right?

Let me also address the issue of "Absolute truth" which you raised in your first post in my reply here.
We as humans have to make our assertions in the light of the social circumstances present among us as we don't have any other paradigm of reality existing around us which we can completely conceptualize.
Lets take the example of the act of murder which is unanimously accepted by all the human societies as a crime of high degree which warrants a severe punishment. I really don't have to read the "American code of law" to reach the conclusion that murder is a crime as it is in my very nature that i believe that it is a crime and it should be punished. However , if i read the book of "American code of law" i would be able to read the details of how for the formation of a good society , the presence of an absolute judge is necessary and i will absorb the idea of crime and punishment in a better way.
Same goes for Quran. It is in you very nature that you will agree with it but to ascertain the details you will have to read it. I am talking about the text of Quran , not the interpretation.
Again , i will give you the example of American law which is present in a written form. Despite the fact that they have a written law , countless murderers are fighting their cases in the court though they have actually committed the murders. Does the arguments extracted by the lawyers of these murderers from the written books of law nullify the crime or prove that the American law is a conjecture which can be twisted towards any side? Does it prove that the American law makes the actual murderer and a falsely accused of murder stand in the same row as both of them are fighting their case on a written?
I can guide you towards "Who is right with in the various sects of Islam" if you accept that Islam is the true religion. In the absence of that , discussing it will become a wrong methodology adopted to ascertain the truth which i have mentioned in my earlier post.

[nikolapegayyyaasss]

Insha Allah others can give more explanations as needed since I may not be able to answer all the things in detail, but there are two things that have to be kept in mind when examining the truth of Islam:

1. When we talk about religions like Christianity or Hinduism, we have to keep in mind that the Divine Being they claim to exist (that is, with the characteristics He has according to them) is a being that is impossible to exist. In the case of Catholics and Orthodox Christians for example, there cannot be a situation where a being incorporates within itself two mutually contradictory characteristics, which is basically what is claimed about Jesus and the Holy Ghost (that they are fully Divine in nature yet they also have total manifestations of their essence in the temporal world (hypo-stasis or whatever the term used by such religions may be)). This is nothing to do with us claiming that God is unable to do something or the other, but a recognition of what God is, and that His having certain attributes excludes their opposites.

Note that the Christians also hold on to this rule for certain things, which is why they argue with atheists about the Existence of God. This means the Christians understand that if "God Exists" is a true statement, then the statement "God does not exist" is false and should be opposed. It is not a matter of limiting God to human logic, but realizing that the question of the Existence of God is tied to reality and that reality operates in a certain way.

This is one of the principles that applies in this case. There is also of course the issue of how the narrations and legal reasoning of their founder has been passed down to us, but once someone knows that their theology is based on intrinsically impossible tenets, we know that the rest of the religion is founded on shaky foundations.

2. When it comes to sects like the Mutazila and the Khawarij, we would really like to know who are the Companions from whom such sects claim to have learned. There is a difference between having a group of dissenters and that dissenting group having a Companion who taught them their ways.

3. When it comes to the Twelver Shias, the matter with them is that they claim that the whole basis of the 12 Imams is so that the Muslim community can have the beliefs and legal reasonings coming from a perfect, infallible source, rather than scholars who can err. And this would be an issue to consider if their Last Imam was actually with them in person openly. But as it stands they are not in this situation and they have been forced to adopt our methodology (that of scholars approximating what the absolute truth is based on fallible methods). In the case of the Twelvers then, the chain of transmission should not even be there since they should be able to get everything directly from the Imam as per the logical foundation of their religion, but rather they have been forced to take our methodology even though the underpinning of their way should not allow for such a thing.

[nicktender]

How do you determine what is true ....

Are you aiming for the whole truth?
If yes then we'll not get it in this life. Faith means we must believe part of the truth without seeing it.
Regarding deciding about the correct sect the question was answered by beloved Prophet (PBUH) himself. The correct sect is Ahl-e-Sunnah wal Jama'a.
May be you'll feel that this is a black box answer. It is not. There is lots of discussion here on this topic-as to who are Ahl-e-Sunnah wal Jama'a and you too, Insha Allah, benefit from it. Hang around but please do not get hung upon this issue.
I suppose you already know a lot about Islam. I whole heartedly invite you to Islam. Regarding the unsolved issues that you have I'lll say that you do not have to eat the full degh (1,2,3) to decide whether it is good (edible) or not.
Take care

[dosugxxx]

How do you determine what is true from among the different sects? Who is right?

The hallmark of falsehood is inconsistency, be it in terms of application of principles or any other terms which may come to light upon looking through the opinions of any one group of people, whether they separate themselves from the main group or not. Allah says (interpretation) "Had it been from other than Allah, they would have found much inconsistency within it." (An-Nisa 82)

[Paladin]

What I understand:

1) The basis of truth in Islam, is the Quran.
2) Its truth can confirmed by nature of man agreeing with it.

So would you say, man would naturally agree with the Quran. (I'll have to go back and read it with this in mind)

However it appears the nature man does not necessarily agree with the interpretation of the Quran. As is evident with the various sects of Islam, although agreeing with the Quran, seem to disagree with its understanding. If true...

How do you determine what is true from among the different sects? Who is right?

Welcome to the forum,

Being a Westerner and a Christian, I was skeptical of the Quran after my first reading. It was only after subsequent readings that I got hooked into its truth and beauty, simple yet profound, and much more so after studying the Arabic and listening to recitors such as Sheik Alafasy. If you spend enough time in it, you too may be won over. Btw, having different interpretations is simply human nature.

Salam

[ambiddetcat]

Basics of Islam is Quran

read Quran and find the truth..Ultimate guide to your soul and success in both worlds

[66paptroump]

ok, so I've been reading the Quran, there is some good in and some things, that I agree with only within a certain context. The things I agree with only within a certain context, would be related to how certain verses are to be understood, in other words, i wouldn't agree with the Sunni Muslim understanding of the verse. For example, Muhammad being the last prophet. Being a Buddhist, we don't have prophets as such. I guess Muhammad is the last prophet of the Abrahamic religions. We have spiritual masters, lamas, who write our scriptures, and our linage of spiritual masters have not ended, thus scriptures can still be written. The Quran seems to a revelation sent to the Abrahamic religions, and not really the world. He has alot of Abrahamic belief overtones, that I just don't agree. One I believe in reincarnation. While Islam believe that every dead person will be resurrected, and judged. It can be true from the context of reincarnation, but I don't think it is true in the literal sense.

Like Muhammad is the last prophet in the abrahamic faith, I can agree with that, but, his demise isn't the end of scripture, or people with direct contact with the spiritual world as such (ie God etc.)

[Paladin]

ok, so I've been reading the Quran, there is some good in and some things, that I agree with only within a certain context. The things I agree with only within a certain context, would be related to how certain verses are to be understood, in other words, i wouldn't agree with the Sunni Muslim understanding of the verse. For example, Muhammad being the last prophet. Being a Buddhist, we don't have prophets as such. I guess Muhammad is the last prophet of the Abrahamic religions. We have spiritual masters, lamas, who write our scriptures, and our linage of spiritual masters have not ended, thus scriptures can still be written. The Quran seems to a revelation sent to the Abrahamic religions, and not really the world. He has alot of Abrahamic belief overtones, that I just don't agree. One I believe in reincarnation. While Islam believe that every dead person will be resurrected, and judged. It can be true from the context of reincarnation, but I don't think it is true in the literal sense.

Like Muhammad is the last prophet in the abrahamic faith, I can agree with that, but, his demise isn't the end of scripture, or people with direct contact with the spiritual world as such (ie God etc.)

Assalam alaykum,

Thank you for reading the Quran and for your interest in Islam. I have studied Buddhism and I understand the issues you raise. I hope that you will continue reading the Quran, as it takes multiple readings to develop a true appreciation of it.

I would like to suggest that you read a book called Understanding Islam by Frithjof Schuon. Schoun explains Islam from a more universal context.

May Allah swt guide your search for truth.

Wassalam

[nicktender]

ok, so I've been reading the Quran, there is some good in and some things, that I agree with only within a certain context. The things I agree with only within a certain context, would be related to how certain verses are to be understood, in other words, i wouldn't agree with the Sunni Muslim understanding of the verse. For example, Muhammad being the last prophet. Being a Buddhist, we don't have prophets as such. I guess Muhammad is the last prophet of the Abrahamic religions. We have spiritual masters, lamas, who write our scriptures, and our linage of spiritual masters have not ended, thus scriptures can still be written. The Quran seems to a revelation sent to the Abrahamic religions, and not really the world. He has alot of Abrahamic belief overtones, that I just don't agree. One I believe in reincarnation. While Islam believe that every dead person will be resurrected, and judged. It can be true from the context of reincarnation, but I don't think it is true in the literal sense.

Like Muhammad is the last prophet in the abrahamic faith, I can agree with that, but, his demise isn't the end of scripture, or people with direct contact with the spiritual world as such (ie God etc.)

To continue the discussion, now that you have come to the conclusion that there is some truth in Islam while there is some truth in Budhism what is your decision about yourself? Will you stay put or come to Islam or design a new amalgamation? You might have got my inclination that I'd like you to come to Islam.
Ciao

[66paptroump]

Assalam alaykum,

Thank you for reading the Quran and for your interest in Islam. I have studied Buddhism and I understand the issues you raise. I hope that you will continue reading the Quran, as it takes multiple readings to develop a true appreciation of it.

I would like to suggest that you read a book called Understanding Islam by Frithjof Schuon. Schoun explains Islam from a more universal context.


Wassalam

I ordered the book.

[66paptroump]

To continue the discussion, now that you have come to the conclusion that there is some truth in Islam while there is some truth in Budhism what is your decision about yourself? Will you stay put or come to Islam or design a new amalgamation? You might have got my inclination that I'd like you to come to Islam.
Ciao

You can't convert to a religion just based on reading their Scripture, you might read something with your understanding and think what a great religion, and then come to find out no muslim understands it that way. I have several other books that I must go through first.

This muslim i know recommended several books for me. So I plan and reading them first before making any decision. I have them all. The books are:

1. reliance of the traveler, which is a book on Islamic Law.
2. I also got Tafsir Jalalayn, which he told me is one of the most authoritative commentries of the quran.
3. I have two book on Islamic belief, the Creed of Imam Tahawi and also Fiqh Akbar explained.
4. Also have the compendium of Knowledge and Wisdom, which is a commentary on some hadith of Muhammad.
5. The Way of Abu Madyan a book on sufism.

Just skimming through these books it seems like it will take a while to get through them. I know its alot, he recommended some shorter books, but I told him, I want to read books that Muslims actually read and refer on a regular basis.

I want to get through all these before making a decision. This muslim told me these books will give me a thorough picture of Islam. So we will see......

[squicscor]

Ciao

I've always said we Italians will one day conquer the whole world..

[nintenda]

May Allah bless the Prophet Muhammad and grant him peace.

Muhammad by Martin Lings is a good book. It is a biography of the Prophet.

The Vision of Islam by Chittick is also a good book. It deals with theological questions of Islam.

[jeockammece]

Did not the mutazila have a unbroken chain back to Muhammad, did not the khawatij also, what about the shia? yet they are considered deviants according to sunni muslims?

The Mu'tazilah and Khawaarij sects didn't have any "unbroken chain" back to the Prophet

The Mu'tazilah sect was started by an individual, Waasil ibn Ataa', who never met the Prophet

Similarly, the Khawaarij sect had no chain back to the Prophet

When Ibn Abbaas, a great companion of the Prophet went to Nahrawan, the camp of the Khawaarij, in order to debate with them, the first thing he noticed that despite their large numbers, he couldn't find a single companion of the Prophet among them

[nicktender]

I've always said we Italians will one day conquer the whole world..

Brother Umar I for one stand conquered. I'll tell another story. A friend spent a year in Italy and came back. We were together in a retirement party. I made few statements in Italian. The statements were just meaningless joining of Italian phrases but the accent was real Italian. This brother just could not take it and choked so badly on food that I had to stop my fake Italian conversation.

Also since we are slightly away from that thread where you have complained about conflicting advices by Shaikh London I can add my two cents here. I'll prefer you to stay in Italy. There is lots of work to be done there. The white skin is working as a block in two ways. The owners of white think that they have nothing to learn from the non-owners. Those who do not have the white skin have this thing that is named inferiority complex. There will be and there are exceptions but we are talking about the main situation. Thus I personally take those British and American brothers who have come to Islam and are endowed with this blessing of particular colour. (I hope I do not get labeled racist.)
In a similar vain I value your work also. Of course our akabir too are working there and I love, respect and value them and I see them as shields for people of deen. So brother keep it up there where you are. We'll talk Shaikh London out of that, IA.

The point is that beloved Prophet (PBUH) was Mercy to all worlds, Islam is the completion of favour of Lord Most High on us so why the Caucasian people be deprived of that? When we think of it in its entirety we find it to be a heart rending situation that Allah has give them, the Caucasian (who have spread away from Caucasus), great worldly blessings (that are temporary) but they are on the verge of being deprived of the permanent blessing-the Jannah. More you think of it more your head spins. Just think of the person whom you see everyday but you have not invited him to this Mercy of Allah called Islam. On the Judgement Day he'll wonder and with enormous pain and surprise might say on that day that Umar you knew it all but you said not even a world about it to me.

I'll also like Euro-Sunni to active forum. During my last few visits it was silent like graveyard. May be you can start a couple of exciting (psst! inciting) threads there.
Wassalam

[panholio]

You can't convert to a religion just based on reading their Scripture, you might read something with your understanding and think what a great religion, and then come to find out no muslim understands it that way. I have several other books that I must go through first.

This muslim i know recommended several books for me. So I plan and reading them first before making any decision. I have them all. The books are:

1. reliance of the traveler, which is a book on Islamic Law.
2. I also got Tafsir Jalalayn, which he told me is one of the most authoritative commentries of the quran.
3. I have two book on Islamic belief, the Creed of Imam Tahawi and also Fiqh Akbar explained.
4. Also have the compendium of Knowledge and Wisdom, which is a commentary on some hadith of Muhammad.
5. The Way of Abu Madyan a book on sufism.

Just skimming through these books it seems like it will take a while to get through them. I know its alot, he recommended some shorter books, but I told him, I want to read books that Muslims actually read and refer on a regular basis.

I want to get through all these before making a decision. This muslim told me these books will give me a thorough picture of Islam. So we will see......

Greetings.
I do NOT recommend those books for the purpose of understanding Islam for conversion.
I assume you know who the prophet Muhammad (saaw) is, correct?
Do you know who God is and that He calls himself Allah?
And do you know what the Quran is?

If you have information about these, then you have enough information to convert to Islam.

You do NOT need to study Reliance of the Traveller or Tafsir al Jalalayn, both of which are specific scientific analyses of the Islam in two disicplines: fiqh and Quranic science.


Ultimately, conversion to Islam is a matter of the HEART which the mind agrees with.
Ultimately, the heart has to submit to what the mind finds to be reasonable and sensible. No matter how much information the mind examines, if the heart does not submit, there is no conversion. So the matter is internal for the individual once this basic knowledge about Islam is acquired.

And that's the point of Islam being consistent with human nature.
Human nature can be understood rationally and approaching by common sense found in any sane person. We humans have needs and instincts: we need food, water, sleep, oxygen, and have instincts of procreation, survival, religiosity. And from these, inclinations emerge: sexual and familial inclinations from procreation for instance, spirituality, reverence, adulation from religiosity for instance.

How these are managed should be consistent with human nature. In contrast, mismanagment of these results in being inconsistent with human nature. To repress sexual inclination by remaining celebate can result in denying having a family, and can result in sexual perversions and chaos. And of course such celibacy cannot be the standard for an entire society.

more late insha Allah

[nicktender]

You do NOT need to study Reliance of the Traveller or Tafsir al Jalalayn, both of which are specific scientific analyses of the Islam in two disicplines: fiqh and Quranic science.

I must thank you brother Usamah for saying this. I did not know how to breach the subject. Brother TruthFinder has read the Holy Qur'an and as such has some knowledge of Islam and further dipping into tomes of scholarship will open a long winded diversion. It will be very nice if we can make it easy for him to decide. He can continue his study-nothing wrong with that but the task of making up his mind about Islam should be given high priority. To this end he should be left with one brother to sort out those points that are not clear to him. Too many of us jumping into the fray will create a conflicting environment. These are my two cents. So may be brother Usama2 you should spend some time with this brother. Wallahualam.
Wassalam