[njfeedd3w]

By enlightenment I mean spiritual enlightenment, not the renaissance enlightenment.

And by spiritual enlightenment I mean MCTB Enlightenment (as recognized by the Hardcore Dharma Movement), Zen Enlightenment, Buddhist Enlightenment, Jain Enlightenment, Hindu Enlightenment.

Sometimes called: Bodhi, Nibbana, Moksha, Satori or Kensho etc.

What does Islam think about the phenomenon of Enlightenment? (not the people who claim enlightenment but the phenomenon of enlightenment), assuming of course, it exists.

[12ZHeWZa]

By enlightenment I mean spiritual enlightenment, not the renaissance enlightenment.

And by spiritual enlightenment I mean MCTB Enlightenment (as recognized by the Hardcore Dharma Movement), Zen Enlightenment, Buddhist Enlightenment, Jain Enlightenment, Hindu Enlightenment.

Sometimes called: Bodhi, Nibbana, Moksha, Satori or Kensho etc.

What does Islam think about the phenomenon of Enlightenment? (not the people who claim enlightenment but the phenomenon of enlightenment), assuming of course, it exists.

the Islamic concept and the budhist/hindu concepts of enlightenment are different - so its hard to say yes or no to yuor question

For the budhust, enlightenment is becoming one with the universe - chakras aligning and karma being understood fully.

The Islamic version of enlightenment is internal and external - interanly, the enlightened Muslim defeats all nafs and worldly desires, transforming those nafs into nafs ul mumaina - meaning that rather than your nafs desiring a haraam thing, they only desire the halal - instead of lusting over women, they lust over salaat or dhikr. Externally this enlightenment manifests itself in complete tawhid - when one realizes that all, good and bad, comes from Allah - that one has already been alotted his share in this world and nothing can increase or decrease it except Allah - when realizing that there is no Might and Power except for Allah - then thios person has knowledge of both self and creation - even if the particulars of the creation are not revealed to him.

[12ZHeWZa]

Another thing - there is a reason why in Islam, and more specificly tasssawuf, there is little use of the word "enlightenment" - the reason is "enlightenment" connotates a meaning of full awareness, all encompassing knowledge - this are attributes of Allah - and the Muslim who becomes enlightened fully rejects this term all together - the only thing they have been enlightened with is full understanding that they ae but slaves of Allah and all light, or knowledge, comes from Allah and can be taken by Allah - they are in FULL submission to the Enlightened, An Noor.

The term that better describes this state is Fana fi Allah - or Annihilation - because to reach this lofty station one must destroy themselves and become annihilated, so that all that remains is the commandment of Allah.

[Krruqgwt]

The issue with the concepts of enlightenment found in other religions is that they present themselves as an absolute end. Can one fall from enlightenment? In Islam, it all depends on the state one dies in - all the enlightenment in the world is useless if one dies in a state unbecoming of a mu'min, regardless of whether he had episodes of epiphanies and enlightenment throughout his life.

[njfeedd3w]

the Islamic concept and the budhist/hindu concepts of enlightenment are different - so its hard to say yes or no to yuor question

For the budhust, enlightenment is becoming one with the universe - chakras aligning and karma being understood fully.

The Islamic version of enlightenment is internal and external - interanly, the enlightened Muslim defeats all nafs and worldly desires, transforming those nafs into nafs ul mumaina - meaning that rather than your nafs desiring a haraam thing, they only desire the halal - instead of lusting over women, they lust over salaat or dhikr. Externally this enlightenment manifests itself in complete tawhid - when one realizes that all, good and bad, comes from Allah - that one has already been alotted his share in this world and nothing can increase or decrease it except Allah - when realizing that there is no Might and Power except for Allah - then thios person has knowledge of both self and creation - even if the particulars of the creation are not revealed to him.

Interesting, are these Sufi views or Orthodox Islamic views, I was just wondering. Also, what is the name of the end goal of Sufism, as my guess is Sufism has an end goal of enlightenment. Like what is the arabic name for their end goal.

For the budhust, enlightenment is becoming one with the universe - chakras aligning and karma being understood fully. Actually this is a misconception, for Buddhists, enlightenment is supposed to be the complete and total annihlation of suffering. The Buddhist Enlightenment is where one's emotions are totally eradicated too.

An Enlightened Buddhist feels no: mental suffering, depression, pain (not physical pain), anxiety, hatred, desire etc.

I think the karma and chakra stuff is related to Hinduism or new age ideas

Zen Enlightenment is slightly more iffy, Jain enlightenment is the eradication of suffering too I think.

[njfeedd3w]

The issue with the concepts of enlightenment found in other religions is that they present themselves as an absolute end. Can one fall from enlightenment? In Islam, it all depends on the state one dies in - all the enlightenment in the world is useless if one dies in a state unbecoming of a mu'min, regardless of whether he had episodes of epiphanies and enlightenment throughout his life.

Can one fall from enlightenment? According to Theravada Buddhism, no. Actually the question isn't addressed.

But seriously though, does Islam (or do Muslims) recognize the state of enlightenment as an actual defined state/attainment that is reproduceable, like an actual phenomenon (regardless of whether it is immoral or irrelevant to salvation) as opposed to a jumbly wish washy mish-mash of feelings or a random claim made by some guy.

Also, theoretically speaking, the followers of other religions who become enlightened but deny the existence of God would technically go to hell right? So Enlightenment doesn't matter?

[12ZHeWZa]

Interesting, are these Sufi views or Orthodox Islamic views, I was just wondering. Also, what is the name of the end goal of Sufism, as my guess is Sufism has an end goal of enlightenment. Like what is the arabic name for their end goal.



Actually this is a misconception, for Buddhists, enlightenment is supposed to be the complete and total annihlation of suffering. The Buddhist Enlightenment is where one's emotions are totally eradicated too.

An Enlightened Buddhist feels no: mental suffering, depression, pain (not physical pain), anxiety, hatred, desire etc.

I think the karma and chakra stuff is related to Hinduism or new age ideas

Zen Enlightenment is slightly more iffy, Jain enlightenment is the eradication of suffering too I think.

First lets get this straight - Sufism is Orthodox Islam - and the goal of every Muslim, not just sufis - is complete submission to Allah - Sufism is science within orthodox Islam, just as the science of hadeeth is within orthodox Islam - So, like the science of hadeeth which has its own special lingo to express the finer aspects of the science - sufism too has its own lingo.

So, sufism is the science of Islam which deals with this enlightenment you speak of - sufism is the science of the heart. The term used by many scholars to communicate this end goal "enlightenment: is "Fana" - or annihilation. So as you explained what the goal of an enlightened budhist is, this is not the goal of the one who seeks to annihilate himself - though Im sure this budhist enlightenment goes much deeper than just "being happy".

In Islam, one who is annihlated may still experience fear and depression and the spectrum of human emotion, however, they are pleased to do so - because doing so is the will of Allah - The person who is annihlated is known as a wali - and if Allah wants this wali to experience the pangs of hunger and has deprived this wali of any means to procure food - the wali says "MAy Allah be pleased, if Allah wants me to suffer - I want to suffer" - So the enlightened wali does not eradicate his emotions - he simply deals with them different from you or I.

A child is a good example of this - when I tell my 4 year old son he can not eat ice cream for dinner - he may cry and have an exagerated emotion to this mundane news - this is expected, to see a child cry after denying that childs nafs from recieveing something is common and not suprising - however, if I told my 26 year old brother he can not have ice cream, and my brother decides to throw himself on the floor and cry - this would be unusual. The child has not learned to cope with his emotions, where the adult has. You and I are child like in our concept of what is ours, and what we deserve in the world, and who is control - our nafs want what has not been written down 70,000 years before creation as to what would be ours. And many of us, like a child, throw a temper tantrum, when we discover that Allah has not given us something we feel we deserve. The wali has worked hard through various methods taught by tassawuf to take what Allah has given him, because he knows Allah is the only distributer of anything in creation.

It seems you are more versed in budhism than me, so I will let you decide if the two are the same, but fana is the destruction of oneself so that every action that one makes is an act of worship and done only for the sake of Allah - this state may entail a person to still experience emotions - there are many stories of the Awliya expressing anger, or sadness, or happiness. The end goal of every Muslim is to be like Muhamed , and Muhamed was annihilated, he did not speak a word or take a step by his own accord, every breath he took was for the pleasure of his Allah.

[RemiVedia]

Br Mujahid, wouldn't the end goal of tasawwuf be "Ihsaan'?

[njfeedd3w]

First lets get this straight - Sufism is Orthodox Islam

Whooahh, really? Where in the Qur'an does it say that Muhammad reached annihlation or whatever? I thought he was just an ordinary human chosen by God?

Tbh I feel like I'm getting a lot of unorthodox views on Islam, like from the moderator above me and the other guy who implied that enlightenment would save someone from hell.

Wouldn't orthodox Islam say that the Buddha is in hell since he denied the existence of any eternally existing entity (hence God). He denied a creator and considered belief in God to be unhealty, Issara Nimana Vada.

I was looking for some Orthodox views on Islam, not like a new agey liberal concept that accepts the idea of enlightenment. Islam would reject spiritual enlightenment as a legitimate spiritual attainment right?

I mean aren't you views technically heretical according to Islam?

Anyways I'm sensing some hostility here so I'm out.

But yes I do know more about Buddhism than you, I was a Buddhist for several years and read all the commentarial bull****, stories, eschatology, mythology, background, teachings, suttas, controversies, pali terms, translated some pali etc.

I even have a legitimate claim to partial enlightenment in Theravada Buddhism (via Buddhaghosa and Pali commentaries (I reached a certain stage of meditation, sammasana nana)). Plus I know a bunch of stuff about other world religions, occult theories, paranormal events etc. A bunch of **** really (sort of fills my head up).

Peace.

[RemiVedia]

Hello,

Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with brother MujahidAbdullah's views. I just thought Ihsaan would be a better word than Fana, as from what I understood a person has reached Ihsaan when he has have achieved Fana.

However I am just a beginner in tasawwuf, brother Mujahid will be able to explain these things better than me.

As for is Buddah in hell,Orthodox Islam (what's unorthodox Islam?) says we don't know who is in Heaven or Hell until we have seen their inhabitants. From what little I read and heard about Buddah, along with others like Socrates and Zoroaster etc, they believed in the oneness of God and it was later that their followers perverted there beliefs. In any case, Allah knows best.

[heennaRaf]

As for is Buddah in hell,Orthodox Islam (what's unorthodox Islam?) says we don't know who is in Heaven or Hell until we have seen their inhabitants. From what little I read and heard about Buddah, along with others like Socrates and Zoroaster etc, they believed in the oneness of God and it was later that their followers perverted there beliefs. In any case, Allah knows best.

There is nobody in the Heaven. Mom and dad (AS) were there. Got thrown out.
Now everyone got to wait for a long time.

Wassalam

[amehoubFomo]

Hello,

Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with brother MujahidAbdullah's views. I just thought Ihsaan would be a better word than Fana, as from what I understood a person has reached Ihsaan when he has have achieved Fana.

I would agree - to an extent - that when speaking about the goal of a Muslim, the word Ihsaan is appropriate but as the subject here is around the word 'enlightenment', which is a generic term for understanding your personal state from a spiritual perspective.

Hence the word Fana is more suitable; even then the word Fana is at a higher level to that what is termed as 'enlightenment', because in the state of 'Fana' you don't just become aware of your spiritual state but you annihilate yourself...

Whilst Ihsaan is a specific Islamic concept, which entails maintaining the levels gained through Fana i.e. to worship Allah as though you see him.

And Allah knows best.

[propolo]

Whooahh, really? Where in the Qur'an does it say that Muhammad reached annihlation or whatever? I thought he was just an ordinary human chosen by God?

Tbh I feel like I'm getting a lot of unorthodox views on Islam, like from the moderator above me and the other guy who implied that enlightenment would save someone from hell.

Wouldn't orthodox Islam say that the Buddha is in hell since he denied the existence of any eternally existing entity (hence God). He denied a creator and considered belief in God to be unhealty, Issara Nimana Vada.

I was looking for some Orthodox views on Islam, not like a new agey liberal concept that accepts the idea of enlightenment. Islam would reject spiritual enlightenment as a legitimate spiritual attainment right?

I mean aren't you views technically heretical according to Islam?

Anyways I'm sensing some hostility here so I'm out.

But yes I do know more about Buddhism than you, I was a Buddhist for several years and read all the commentarial bull****, stories, eschatology, mythology, background, teachings, suttas, controversies, pali terms, translated some pali etc.

I even have a legitimate claim to partial enlightenment in Theravada Buddhism (via Buddhaghosa and Pali commentaries (I reached a certain stage of meditation, sammasana nana)). Plus I know a bunch of stuff about other world religions, occult theories, paranormal events etc. A bunch of **** really (sort of fills my head up).

Peace.

Hi, I am a salafi muslim who sticks staunchly to what can be found within the qur'an and hadeeth so perhaps we can discuss tehse issues as you dont seem to be interested in speaking to muslims who have already adopted some of your religion into theirs and who make the religion up as they go along.

As for whether Buddah is in Hell, we believe we can only affirm hell for those individuals who Allah has affirmed hell for such as some individuals alive in the time of the prophet. Also we believe that messengers were sent to various people and they corrupted those messages, e.g. Jesus was sent to call to people to worship one god and the people even started to deify him. Even some muslims deify the prophet (Such as the sufis). So we cant be sure if he was a messenger from god who's message was corrupted by man, or if he called to the hellfire. We just dont know. What we can say, is that if you follow the path of buddism, this is undoubtedly a path that leads to hell in the Islaamic view. UNless you have never heard of Islaam in which case you will be tested in the day of judgement and all your relgigious acts in this life will still be rendered useless.

The end goal in Islaam is the attainment of paradise. We believe Allah created us to worship him.

We believe to prostrate before a man made idol like teh buddah statue is the worst possible sin as you are giving the right of God to a created lump of metal. There is a concept of pruifying your heart in Islaam in order to aid you in your worship of God however, but not the sufi version where you can become one with god and all that nonsense. But Allah says:

"Indeed whosoever purifies himself shall achieve success" (Al-A'la 87:14)

There is definitely a concept of purifying your soul (tazkiyyah). Salafis believe you achieve this through avoiding sins, ridding yourself of polytheism, reading qur'an, seeking knowledge of the religion etc. The sufis have other ideas so Ill leave them to explain what sufis think. They will also try to tell you they are orthodox Islaam, as practiced for centuries (they forget to mention they started off as a heretic movement that was brought to a bit more mainstream by ghazali and also that there were no sufis in the first three generations of Islaam in terms of people who do what todays sufis do, and I challenege anyone to bring me some narrations showing me that the salaf did the crazy wack sufi practices todays sufis do)

[soipguibbom]

Brother David,

This time I will reply to you without getting angry.

Why are you intent on jsut picking and selecting hadith that suits you and your way of thinking? Does it not say in the Quran "REMEMBER ALLAH ABUNDANTLY". How would one do that then?

You cant just pick and choose a streamlined version of deen, that you may or may not through no fault of your own, deem it as correct, but then tread over the sufis like it is your given right.

How do you expect Mohammed SAW to intercede on your behalf on yawm ul Qiyamah when there is no feeling of love or joy on the mention of his name (this is the feeling I have when I speak with salafis, not generally you). Do you know what the state of mankind will be on THE DAY??? The only prophet who will be given that status to intercede is Muhammad SAW, yet somehow it is wrong to mention or do his dhikr, (or like you said the whacko jacko sufi stuff)

[Pelefaifs]

Hi, I am a salafi muslim who sticks staunchly to what can be found within the qur'an and hadeeth so perhaps we can discuss tehse issues as you dont seem to be interested in speaking to muslims who have already adopted some of your religion into theirs and who make the religion up as they go along.

The sufis have other ideas so Ill leave them to explain what sufis think.

They will also try to tell you they are orthodox Islaam, as practiced for centuries (they forget to mention they started off as a heretic movement that was brought to a bit more mainstream by ghazali and also that there were no sufis in the first three generations of Islaam in terms of people who do what todays sufis do, and I challenege anyone to bring me some narrations showing me that the salaf did the crazy wack sufi practices todays sufis do)

You were doing so good up until that contradiction.

Don't forget to tell them what the word salafi means and where it comes from.

[propolo]

Brother David,

This time I will reply to you without getting angry.

Why are you intent on jsut picking and selecting hadith that suits you and your way of thinking? Does it not say in the Quran "REMEMBER ALLAH ABUNDANTLY". How would one do that then?

You cant just pick and choose a streamlined version of deen, that you may or may not through no fault of your own, deem it as correct, but then tread over the sufis like it is your given right.

How do you expect Mohammed SAW to intercede on your behalf on yawm ul Qiyamah when there is no feeling of love or joy on the mention of his name (this is the feeling I have when I speak with salafis, not generally you). Do you know what the state of mankind will be on THE DAY??? The only prophet who will be given that status to intercede is Muhammad SAW, yet somehow it is wrong to mention or do his dhikr, (or like you said the whacko jacko sufi stuff)

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allâh then follow me, Allâh will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Aali Imran 3:31)

Think Ill take my "chances" with the sunnah thanks. Sufis claim to love Allah and the prophet yet dont follow the verse I just mentioned. Why not busy yourself with things the prophet did rather than your own practices that he never did? Do dhikr how he did dhikr rather than singing and chanting like a bunch of hindus

[propolo]

You were doing so good up until that contradiction.

Don't forget to tell them what the word salafi means and where it comes from.

the word salaf means predecessors and we are claiming adherents to Islaam how it was practiced by the first three generations of muslims (companions of the prophet and the two generatiosn after them).

As for contradictions, tehre is no contradiction, the sufis whom we today know as sufis startef off as an incredibly heretic movement that ghazali tried to move towards more mainstream Islaam. So today we have the ones who follows ghazalis more mainstream Islaam and then the ones who follow the ibn arabi style sufism (even many sufis now say "we are sufi but not muslim").

As for the origin of the word sufi, it may come from some people who simply wore suf (wool) due to lack of caring for worldly things as they were concerned with their ibaadah.

There is no group that calls themselves sufi today who follows what the salaf were upon. The second you start rituals the prophet never did like your supposed "heart cleansing dhickr", unless by dhcikr you mean ibaadah that the prophet did, then you are following eitehr ghazali sufism or hinduislaam.

To prove that point, I simply ask for one quote from the salaf that they did any practice not found in todays salafi community. Your methods of "reaching ihsaan", through doing innovated sufi practices, bring your evidence that is was practiced by even one person from teh three righteous geenrations.

I have quoted this narration once already but here it is again:

Amr ibn Yahya narrated his father told him, “We used to sit at Abdullah Ibn Masood’s house before Fajr prayer. If he exited we would follow him to the musjid. Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari then came to us and asked us, ‘Did Abu Abur-Rahman (Abdullah Ibn Masood) come out yet?’ We said, ‘No’, so he sat with us till he emerged. We all stood up when he exited.

He (Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari) said, ‘O Abu Adur-Rahman, I just saw something which I did not recognize, and I did not see, all thanks to Allah, but good.’ He (Ibn Masood) said, ‘What is it?’ He (Abu Musa) said, ‘If you live you will see it. I saw in the musjid people sitting in circles waiting for the prayer. In each circle there is a leader, and they have stones in their hands. He (the leader) would say, ‘Say Takbir (Allahu Akbar) 100 times’, so they say Takbir 100 times. He (the leader) would then say, ‘Say Tahil (La Ilaha Illa Allah) 100 times’, so they say Tahil 100 times. He (the leader) would then say, ‘Say Tasbih (Subhana Allah) 100 times’, so they say Tasbih 100 times.

Ibn Masood said, ‘Did you not order them to count their evil deeds, and guarantee them that none of their good deeds will be lost?’ Then he and us left till we reached one of the circles. Then he (Ibn Masood) stood next to the circle and said, ‘What are you doing?’ They said, ‘O Abu Abdur-Rahamn, (these are) stones that we count our Takbir, Tahil, tasbih, and Tah’mid (Alhumdu’lillah).’

Ibn Masood said, ‘Count your evil deeds, for I guarantee that none of your good deeds will be lost. What is the matter with you, O nation of Muhammad? How soon you come to your destruction! The companions (of Muhammad) are still many, these are his clothes still not worn out and his cookware did not break yet. By whom my soul is in His Hands, you are either following a religion better than Muhammad’s or followers of a way of evil.’

They said, ‘By Allah, O Abu Abdur-Rahman, we sought only what is good.’ Ibn Masood said, ‘Many people seek good, but they do not reach it. The Messenger told us some people who read the Quran will not have the Quran leave their throats (to their hearts). By Allah I do not know if most of you are from them.’ Then he left them. Amr Ibn Salamah said, ‘We saw most of those people fighting against us, in the battle of Nahrawan with the Khawarij.’” (Tirmidhi)

Once a man sneezed in the presence of Ibn Umar and said, “Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the Messenger.’ Ibn Umar chastised the man and said, “The Prophet has only taught us to say Alhumdu’lillah.” (Tirmidhi)

I really believe that deep down you must all know full well that these innovated practices you do are nto from Islaam and must be wrong, I just dont know why you still hold onto them and corrupt Islaam with them. Why not focus on learning arabic, tafseer, reading qur'an, learning the sunnah, practicing them, worshipping Allah how the prophet worshipped Allah. Surely you must all know you are practicing something that is wrong by Islaamic definition of wrong

[loginptsa]

Assalamu alaykum

salafism enters into conversation between hindus and muslims? and they enjoy it.

Here in India when muslim personal law board represents 99% of muslims except shia and salafees. When the board struggles to safeguard the shariah, the shias and the salafees give statements exactly opposite. The media puts those statements in front page and declares "see there is no consensus among muslims"

I don't practice sufism. But independently I say "You will see more of sunnah, love for Allah swt and Rasulullah sws among sufees than salafees".

You cannot get love of Allah swt and Rasulullah swt by reading any book. Or by doing rafa yadain and ameen bil jahar. If that is the case I will start doing that tomorrow.

[loginptsa]

See what is happening on this forum.

First a new member comes and discusses madhabs with christian divisions and vanishes.

Which madhab to follow and vanishes.

now this creek a new member starts hinduism vs sufee and debate on sufee versus salafee started. and I am sure this creek will vanish.

Laanatullahi alal munaafiqeen.

[propolo]

[QUOTE=ahamed_sharif;604782]

I don't practice sufism. But independently I say "You will see more of sunnah, love for Allah swt and Rasulullah sws among sufees than salafees".[QUOTE]

You are joking me right?