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07-14-2011, 11:47 AM
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#1 |
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 Am I considered a Kaffer?
Assalamu alaikum, wa rahmatullahi, wa barakatuh.
I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to post in.. But im more then certain this forum is filled with Sufi's and ashari's.. I'm certain that this isn't a salafi website.. and if it isn't i've came to the right place Honestly I had a very sincere question I would like to ask and try to get an answer from the more experienced/knowledgeable brothers insha'Allah.. Ok in my 2 and half years of being Muslim, i've tried my best to learn as much as I can about islam. I've also done a lot of comparative studies (Other deens) seeing that I am a revert I wanted to be fair and make sure I have yaqeen that this religion is different and far more evident of being the Truth in comparison to what others believe.. And alhamdulillah it's exactly that. Recently I have been getting a little too deep in my religion.. Starting to notice that "Sunni" muslims seem to have a lot of difference of opinions on things.. I never really noticed it before but now that it has become evident in my life.. It's something I can't ignore.. My question to you brothers is... According to the Sufi's or Ashari's .. If I stand here as a Muslim and say... I believe Allah is Above the Heavens.. outside of the creation in a manner that suits his majesty . If I say Allah descends to the lowest heaven every last third of the night, in a manner that suits his majesty .. If I say Allah has a face but it is not in resemblance to my face or any created thing.. If I don't make tatweel on the ayats/hadiths of Allah having things like Hands/Face/Eyes/Ears/Foot/ ETC ETC BUT I say laysa ki mithli shay, and Wa lam yakullahu Kufuwan ahad... What is your verdict of me? Am I a kaffer? Am I a muslim ? (please I don't want evidence as to what is correct to believe) I just simply want to know the verdict.. What am I? Will Allah punish me? Please explain the verdict on one who says this.. According to your manhaj One request I have is.. Please explain what group you belong to (Without saying ahlus sunnah) Say if your Ashari, athari, Deobandi, Sufi , bralvi, salafi... Just to make it more simple for me.. because everyone says they are ahlus sunnah.. I am a new muslim.. if you are really a pious believer.. for the sake of Allah and me being a new muslim .. enlighten me ... Thank you and God bless - Mahyar |
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07-14-2011, 11:58 AM
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#2 |
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man I believe the same things you mentioned. Listen we don't need to get into these debates. ALLAH is not like a human in any shape or form and is not restricted in anyway. Surah ikhlas is enough. My advice would be to learn something productive. Don't let your brain be clouded by such thoughts. Learn some basic fiqh, read aqeedah tahawiyah by yourself, read a book on seerah, pick up a book on sunnah like uswai rasul sallhwausalam by dr abdul hay arifi and slowly implement each sunnah. You can start by doing small things like putting on your shirt from the right hand first or putting on your shoe right one first and taking left one off first etc. Read the quraan daily and try and read a few verses with translation and ponder on the meaning. Do zikr of the kalimah laillahaillahmuhammadurrasulullah. Spend some time with tabligh jamaat. Whatever time you can give.
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07-14-2011, 12:12 PM
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#3 |
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Salam
according to the limited understanding i have nobody here would consider you kafir, far from it. rather you are one of the special people whom allah has guided to haqq and brought upon the deen and brought tawhid into your life. on a side note if you have heard of the scholar of old allamah Ibn Taymiyyah then know that the people of this forum consider him to be one of their own, that is of ahlesunnah wal jama not withstanding the differences that they may have with him in some issues. Myself until recently i never spoke of any of the issues relating to the attributes of allah etc. i was like the old woman from a story who when told that fakhruddin arrazi (a great islamic theologian of old) was in town and that he had 100 proofs for the existence of allah responded "of what use is thatto me i see the signs of allah's existence all around me". to my limited understanding the sahabah were also simple when it came to these things, that is they didn't question these issues. recently though after spending too much time watching or listening to salafi talks all these issues were basically brought to the surface. also i took a religious studies course in my uni which mentioned early islamic heresies (mutazilah etc.) and basically i became exposed to a lot of these issues regarding the nature of allah. at this point i chose to go down the conservative maturidi way which is to avoid having a purely literalist understanding and accepting that the reality of the issues regarding allah making istiwa alal arsh are known only to him and that i believe in them as allah wishes. allah will not question me aboiut this on the day of judgement rather he will ask me about my sins, about my prayers, whether i had firm yaqeen in him etc. yes in certain circumstances like for example "allah's hand is with a group" the implication of the hadith has been very clear to many scholars simply because they are the words of rasulullah (an arab of his time) and the phrase "my hand is with..." meant something less literal in common arabic, but otherwise i follow the path of relegation. to my understanding this is the basic maturidi position in the issue. with regards to saying allah is above or wherever i can't say anything...rather we don't speak of allah in terms of space or time all of which are not relevant to him as he is transcendent and form, occupying space etc. are all below him, they are attributes of the creation and not the creator. i listened to this series a while ago (it's by a maturidi scholar i believe) and it was really good it laid out the points quite clearly. http://www.youtube.com/user/sdlhsn#g/c/23169B4252DA2E56 if i have made any mistakes in anything i have written i ask allah for forgiveness. -Saeed Qureshi |
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07-14-2011, 12:23 PM
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#4 |
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Assalam alaykum,
I am a newer Christian revert and what you've said is pretty much what I believe too. I have noticed that the finer or more detailed the points at issue become, the more disagreements arise. From where I have come from, it seems that I need to focus on general principles. I really think that some of these debates are geared towards those Muslims that have spent a lifetime in the deen and not for those who have spent a lifetime in another deen and are trying to adjust to being a Muslim. My first attraction to Islam was from reading about Islamic mysticism and the famous Muslim saints, btw. Wassalam |
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07-14-2011, 12:28 PM
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#5 |
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 Calling eachother kafirs is not the job of a sincere Muslim who follows the path of the Prophet (saws) and his companions ya'ani Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, rather that we leave to the extreme rawafid and khawarijh of which you still will find today. Allah is not like His creation end of story why try and build something which can not be build anyway, our brains are so small anyway that we can not comprehend about the universe how can we comprehend the Creator of everything. I recall reading/hearing once that prophet (saws) ordered the sahabah (ra) not to discuss about Allah and how He is rather to talk about His signs and His creation. 
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07-14-2011, 12:29 PM
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#6 |
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I suppose I might be lumped in with the Ash'aris, but honestly, I wouldn't know the difference between Ash'ari and Maturidi... my eyes are bad, split the hair too much and I can't even see it. Are all Hanafis Maturidis? Are all Shafiis Ash'aris? Are all Hanbalis Atharis? Do Malikis lean more to Ash'ari or Maturidi? I'm more towards the attitude of al-Ghazali when he wrote in Alchemy of Happiness, that Kalam is mainly used for debating with non-Muslims and is fardh Kifayah to have some experts in it just like it is fardh kifayah to have an army. But it's not productive for laymen. The basis of faith is found elsewhere. The differences in positions (Ash'ari or Maturidi) ... I take it merely like a debate between using a Kalashnikov or a M-16 when fighting. Whatever shoots the goat, as they say. Since the non-Muslims don't acknowledge Qur'an, you want to shoot them with Aristotle (Kalashnikov) or with Plato (M-16)? As long as you shoot them either way... |
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07-14-2011, 12:37 PM
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#7 |
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The forum is mostly deobandi members. There are other from other groups as well. What make a person liable to know/discuss these tafseel? When Nabi  did not question the jaariya the tafseel of her isharah, why are we so incessant in finding out what it could mean? This is a very edgy road, a slip up here and there could land one out of fold of Islam. We are mukallaf of Imaan Ijmalan. Amantu Billahi Kama Huwa bi Ismatihi wa ahkamihi.. finish. and tafseel over an above that.. Amantu Billahi wa Malaaikatihi wa kutubihi wa Rusulihi wal yaumil akhiri wal qadri khairihi wa sharrihi min Allahi Ta'ala wal ba'thi ba'dal maut
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07-14-2011, 12:59 PM
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#8 |
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I just wanted to make sure I am not considered a disbeliever.. Because the salafi's hold a good arguement .. and the others have arguments to.. we can't say people are standing on nothnig... There quoting verses from Quran and respected scholars... I honestly don't know what side to jump on... the salafi has more appealing to me (not the group of people) but rather there idea of accepting what the Quran says as litteral with adding "Laysa ke mithlihi shay" to top it off to make sure were not making Allah ta'ala in to a human... Personally it makes the most sense, but I also somewhat accept other opinions because they stand on some weight aswell.. Maybe my knowledge is not complete because many salafi's wouldn't agree with what I just said... I pray my Lord Guides me to the Madhab of rasoolullah(saws) and the companions with regards to this issue... My problem is.. I can't get this topic off my mind... as soon as I start my salah and make takbir... The questions come.. "Where is Allah, does Allah have a face etc " then I think of the salafi points then I think of the ashari points etc... I wish this would go away... Maybe during ramadan my Lord will guide me and put me on the correct ideaology .. as of now.. im sort of in the middle and I can't get it off my mind.. Allahh! |
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07-14-2011, 01:14 PM
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#9 |
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"Do not become proud merely because you worship often, for consider what happened to Iblees after he spent a great deal of time worshipping."
-Hasan Al-Basri (rahmatullahi alahi) I think what you are experiencing is Wasawis (whispering of the Shaytan). The Shaytan whispers in our head make us doubt about our fundamentals of Islam. Like Abu Hajira mentioned Aqeedah is a very simple thing, its just that some people like to make it complicated and go to lengths to debate about it. Allah is the one and only God and Muhammad is his messenger. The rest of the details which we are unsure of doesn't matter. Concentrate more on your Good deeds.
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07-14-2011, 01:17 PM
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#10 |
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For some reason I am worried if like my aqeedah is not perfect, im going to the hell fire... I hope Allah excuses me, I am like a noob. I don't know much but i'm going in to topics that like Famous scholars (Ibn taymiyyah, imam nawwawi) They disagreed on ... like how will I ultimately come to the conclusion and say I am the shining star on the Haq? I ask my Lord to guide me to the truth.. please make dua for me.. as long as I am know I am not a kaffer for believing in (the methodology of ibn taymiyyah) that's good.. I feel like it's the truth though I respect the other opinion due to the evidence it brings forth aswell.. Allahu musta3n |
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07-14-2011, 01:33 PM
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#11 |
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Thanks bro.. Yeah I'm getting a lot of whispers for sure.. I can sense it... I was almost convinced i was doing Kuffar in the past, But i soon found out that I was just experiencing whispers. This book helped me a lot to understand and what to do in this condition. http://yunuspatel.co.za/books-whisperingsofshaitaan.php . Its written by Maulana Yunus Patel (May Allah shower him with Mercy), He passed away few days back make Dua for him. And read the book, its a small one and it will benefit you  .P.s. Recite Suratul Ikhlas(Qulhu wallahu Ahad) many times everyday its effective. |
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07-14-2011, 03:33 PM
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#12 |
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is it a requirement of our deen to understand where Allah is or how Allah is? will we be asked about this in our grave or in the hereafter before we are allowed to enter into jannah? if this is so important then where are the teachings of the Prophet regarding where Allah is and how Allah is?
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07-14-2011, 05:46 PM
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#13 |
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Maybe the aqidah lessons of Mufti 'Abdur Rehman Ibn Yusuf Mangera can be a good way to repel those thoughts of yours. Brother end of the day we can say as much as we want but it all comes down to practice on what we know, today muslims know deen but they don't know iman, all Muslims know it's obligatory to pray 5 times a day but still how come 95% of the ummah doesn't pray, asking the question where is Allah and how is Allah are two questions which are linked to eachother, when you ask someone where is Allah? You are also implying how is Allah? Because where is a physical distance and as we know physical distance, width, space, time and other such constraints which are for creation and not for the Creator (swt). |
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07-14-2011, 07:10 PM
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#14 |
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Assalamu alaikum, wa rahmatullahi, wa barakatuh. If you believe in all of these, you are a Muslim
Unfortunately many of our Muslim Brothers & Sisters take herbal medicine due to health issues so please disregard most of their discussions. 
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07-14-2011, 08:11 PM
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#15 |
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people have made things a lot more complicated than they need to be, i noticed with the aqeedah issues both sides asharis and salafis make massive generalisations to make a divide bigger than it actually is the safest option is to stay away from these discussions and just know that there is nothing like Allah, we don't need to go into the other stuff wallahu alam |
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07-15-2011, 02:10 AM
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#16 |
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The views of those who call themselves Salafis have been views of some great muslim scholers and, it allways existed alongside the Ashari and Maturidi views. Nobody accussed anybody of being Kaafir except our recent Salafi brothers. They did not find it sufficient to just choose a manhaj and follow it (as everybody did before them) but denounced everybody who is not on their manhaj as Kaafirs and Renegades.So if u accept those views, all we will say is alhamdulila, those were the views of great scholers. But the question you then have to answer is Do u then consider the Asharis and Maturidis Muslim?
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07-15-2011, 03:15 AM
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#17 |
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No, I wouldn't say you're a kaffir. The most important thing to remember is that Allah  is utterly unlike his creation. When the Qur'an or hadith mention stuff such as "descending," "hands," or what have you, you just need to remember not to interpret those verses literally. Saying those verses are from Allah and Allah alone knows their meaning is very different than interpreting them literally. If this is a serious concern of yours, I'd highly recommend this book which goes over this topic in great detail from a traditional Ashari/Maturidi perspective called The Attributes of God : Translation, Notes, and Appendices ('Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Jawzi) by Shaykh Abdullah bin Hamid 'Ali : http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b9226.htmlVery very good book that delves into this matter in a thorough, comprehensible manner. |
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07-15-2011, 03:35 AM
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#18 |
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br. Mahyar, do you still need the translations or is the issue cleared now? If you need me to translated my post I will do so.
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07-15-2011, 04:24 AM
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#19 |
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السلام عليكم
Dear brother you are a Muslim and maybe you'll even enter Jannah before all of us, Thank Allah who guided you and waste no time in these futile topics related to the "Nature of God" that will bring you no good in this life nor the after-life, read the Quran and believe in what you read. I also add that you may want to stick around here and you'll see that all of us are Muslims we follow the same Holy Book and the same Sunnah, Salafi or Sufi, Madhabi or Non-Madhabi, these are only minor issues, the main issue is Tawheed and Ikhlas fil 'Ibadat and to believe in this religion and stick with the authentic Sunnah. و السلام عليكم |
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