[sesWaipunsaws]

What are the main theological differences between the two? It is something that has confused me for quite some time. Will someone care to explain in simple terms?

[namaikaimvputka]

Question
Q1: Would you be so kind as to list the differences between the Asharis and the Maturidis. I have heard that there are 13 differences between the two schools, but only 6 of these are "real" differences. Could you list those six?
Q2: Is it allowed for a person to follow the Ashari school in most of the issues and the Maturidi school in some of the issues, or vice-versa?

Answer

Shaikhul Islam Ibn Kamaal Baasha, has enumerated 12 differences between the Asharis and Maaturidis. We hereunder list 9 of them"A" refers to Asharis, "M" to Maaturidis)

1.
A- Takween is a Sifat fi'liyyah, is not azali and is haadith.
M- takween is from the Sifaat Azaliyyah
2.
A- Speech (Kalaam) of Allah can be heard
M- Kalaam of Allah cannot be heard; what is heard is that which points to it.
3.
A- Hikmah meaning "perfection" is not a quality of Allah
M- It is a sifah of Allah
4.
A- Both the Ridha(Pleasure) and Irada (intention) of Allah is connected to everything.
M- The Irada of Allah is connected to everything, not the Ridha
5.
A- "Takleef ma laa yutaaq"(Burdening more than is bearable) is Jaiz
M- Not Jaiz
6.
A-Laws connected to "Takleef" can only be received directly from Nass
M- Some such laws can be grasped by intellect
7.
A-Forgiving Kufr is Jaiz Aqlan not Sam'an
M- Not Jaiz
8.
A- Possible for a mu'min to remain in Jahannum forever and for a kaafir to remin in Jannah forever
M- Not possible
9.
A- Being a male is not a condition for being a Nabi
M- Being a male is a condition B.

If one happens to be a well-grounded alim,who is well-versed in Aqeedah, then it could be acceptable for him to follow another school in some issues.

Many famous scholars eg. Razi, Ghazali, Ibn Humaam etc had differences with the school they followed.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Ml. Husain Kadodia STUDENT:
Darul Ifta
CHECKED & APPROVED:
Mufti Ebrahim Desai

[AmfitNom]

As Salamu Alaikum

(I explained this before in another thread, here is a copy of it)
Imam al-Ashari (ra) was throughout his life a Mutazilite until at the age of 40 when he openly denounced the Mutaziliite beliefs and challenged them as they had the most influence in the Muslim world at that time. The differences between Imam al-Ashari (ra) and Imam al-Maturidi (ra) is really geographical and in methodology and not in the fundamentals. Al-Ashari (ra) was closer in contact with the elite of the Mutazilites and would challenge them.

Regarding methodology, I will quote from Imam Abu Hanifa's Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar Explained:

"Ashari did not give much preference to reason in the presence of sacred texts, even if they were transmitted by lone narrators rather than through uninterrupted transmission, while Maturidi would attempt to reconcile between reason and the transmitted texts, as long as it was possible to do so without too much difficulty or without sacrificing fairness." There are three accepted schools of creed from the Ahl-ul-Sunnah: Ash'ari, Maturidi and Athari according to the opinion of Al-Saffarini (ra).

The dividing opinions comes between modern day Salafis (only Athari creed are Ahl-ul-Sunnah) vs. non-Salafis (only Ash'ari/Maturidi are Ahl-ul-Sunnah)

The opinion of Al-Saffarini (ra) is acceptable as the Ash'ari's and Maturidi's were established schools AGAINST the Mutazilites, something Salafis will not recognize. The Athari creed can be acceptable based on one Tab'ien (may Allah be pleased with him), who believed textualism of Qur'an. The major difference is that from my understanding the Athari school is not an established school, that even Ibn Taymiyah (ra) and Ibn Kathir (ra) had differences of opinion, and the possible innovation of the belief of Allah's "Left Hand" was established by the Khalaf (unless someone can provide Proof please that Allah and his Messenger salalahu alahi wasalam ever said the word "Left Hand" in Qur'an and Hadith in regards to Allah).

Allah knows best.

[Dwnijzhd]

it would be great if some of the Thalibul Ilms here can quote some of the great past Scholars on Ash'ari/Maturidi Aqeedah....

[lalpphilalk]

There are three accepted schools of creed from the Ahl-ul-Sunnah: Ash'ari, Maturidi and Athari according to the opinion of Al-Saffarini (ra).

The dividing opinions comes between modern day Salafis (only Athari creed are Ahl-ul-Sunnah) vs. non-Salafis (only Ash'ari/Maturidi are Ahl-ul-Sunnah)

wa'alaykumussalaam,

It's not as simple as this though. For centuries, the Ash'ari's and Maturidis were collectively known as ahl ul-'athar and as ahl ul-Hadith. So the terms are sometimes confusing.

I think that the group which today calls itself Athari claims to follow the Aqidah of Imam Ahmad. In that case, there are potential issues surrounding the how well the beliefs of Imam Ahmad (especially the explanations of his many sayings) have been preserved. As you said, it is not truly a school.

Personally, I do not understand why anyone would choose a non-school over an established school. An established school is CONFIRMED to be correct. And if one claims that Ash'aris or Maturidis are astray, then they better be prepared to reject any and all chains that contain Ash'aris or Maturidis. I doubt that there would be a single chain that they could consider Saheeh.


Anyway, I could post tons of proofs from the Qur'an and the Hadith that specifically support the belief that the Ash'aris and Maturidis are correct.

[Dwnijzhd]

Anyway, I could post tons of proofs from the Qur'an and the Hadith that specifically support the belief that the Ash'aris and Maturidis are correct.

Akhi

please do...and also please quote past Scholars verdict on Ash'aris/Maturidis please.

[adolfadsermens]

wa'alaykumussalaam,

It's not as simple as this though. For centuries, the Ash'ari's and Maturidis were collectively known as ahl ul-'athar and as ahl ul-Hadith. So the terms are sometimes confusing.

lol, you must be kidding, they where called ashari's and maturidis.
They where even called Kullubist in the early day's.

http://www.hanbalis.com/index.php/Kullabism


I think that the group which today calls itself Athari claims to follow the Aqidah of Imam Ahmad. In that case, there are potential issues surrounding the how well the beliefs of Imam Ahmad (especially the explanations of his many sayings) have been preserved. As you said, it is not truly a school. Ashari's are not athari's it is well known that Hanbali's where nearly alway's rebuking ashari's.

If you wan't to take up the aqeedah of Hanbali Madhaab, please feel free to go to a hanbali, and I gurantee you would see their dislike of asharism.

Unless if you are talking about al-Ibaanah ashari, you would see some criticism, but nothing major.

Also you might wan't to distinguish between the contempory ashari's from the latter one.

Secondly who told you it is not a truly a school.


Personally, I do not understand why anyone would choose a non-school over an established school. An established school is CONFIRMED to be correct. And if one claims that Ash'aris or Maturidis are astray, then they better be prepared to reject any and all chains that contain Ash'aris or Maturidis. I doubt that there would be a single chain that they could consider Saheeh. What chain's you are talking about? Hadith chain's?


Anyway, I could post tons of proofs from the Qur'an and the Hadith that specifically support the belief that the Ash'aris and Maturidis are correct. Oh that would be great, please do not let me stop you.

While you at it, check also the thread out on Allah(swt) is above, and provide your ton's of proof fromt the Quraan and Sunnaah that he is not.

[ButKnillinoi]

[B][I]Question

Shaikhul Islam Ibn Kamaal Baasha, has enumerated 12 differences between the Asharis and Maaturidis. We hereunder list 9 of them"A" refers to Asharis, "M" to Maaturidis)

1.
A- Takween is a Sifat fi'liyyah, is not azali and is haadith.
M- takween is from the Sifaat Azaliyyah

Brother abuhajira, can you explain this point further, please. And what is the official standing of Pakistani deobandis? I mean, in which category they fall? If I have the right to choose, I would go for the viewpoints held by Matrudis, less ist point, which I couldn't understand.

[adolfadsermens]

Brother abuhajira, can you explain this point further, please. And what is the official standing of Pakistani deobandis? I mean, in which category they fall? If I have the right to choose, I would go for the viewpoints held by Matrudis, less ist point, which I couldn't understand.

Salaam.

Yes I also wan't to know the difference in detail.

Also bit more translation please.

[lalpphilalk]

lol, you must be kidding, they where called ashari's and maturidis.
They where even called Kullubist in the early day's.

http://www.hanbalis.com/index.php/Kullabism

What I mean is that I have personally seen books which say that the Ash'aris and Maturidis BOTH fall under the category ahl ul-Athar. I am not denying that they are mostly known by Ash'ari and Maturidi, but what confuses people is that when someone wants to refer to BOTH groups similtaneously, they don't always say "ahl us-sunnah," sometimes they say ahl ul=Athar or ahl ul-Hadith.


Ashari's are not athari's it is well known that Hanbali's where nearly alway's rebuking ashari's. It is also true that the Hanbalis and Ash'aris have repeatedly been at odds with one another on matters of Aqidah over the centuries. But, the Ash'aris never denied the validity of the creed of Imam Ahmad. Rather, we reject the anthropomorphic tendencies of those who came later and claimed to believe what He believed (rahimahullah).

If you wan't to take up the aqeedah of Hanbali Madhaab, please feel free to go to a hanbali, and I gurantee you would see their dislike of asharism. Why would I want to do that? Rasoolullah said that His Ummah would be split into 73 groups, each of which is in Hellfire except for one - and when He was asked which is that one, He replied "al-Jamaa3ah" (the majority). The Ash'aris and Maturidis have been the majority since the founding of their schools. And the beliefs of the Ash'aris and Maturidis have been the majority since the time of Rasoolullah Himself .


Secondly who told you it is not a truly a school.

What chain's you are talking about? Hadith chain's? This is Islam that we are talking about. Everything has a chain. Each ayah has a chain. Every Prophetic Hadith has a chain. Every Hadith from a Companion has a chain, and from a tabi'i, and from any Imam, and from the awliyaa', etc. etc. Anything that has been said about anything that pertains to the religion has a chain. That includes every statement from Imam Ahmad. His statements that pertain to fiqh still have Saheeh chains that stretch back to him (although there is very real danger of this disappearing soon). But for many of his statements about aqidah, there are no (or few) authentic chains EXPLAINING what he meant by those statements. This is because Imam Ahmad (a) didn't like to go into depth about aqidah and (b) wasn't trying to establish a set of Aqidah teachings. Yes, we agree that his aqidah was correct, but we have little information with which to confirm that we have fully understood his aqidah.

The Ash'ari and Maturidi schools, on the other hand, were established with the intention of CLARIFYING matters of Aqidah, and TEACHING them.



Oh that would be great, please do not let me stop you.

While you at it, check also the thread out on Allah(swt) is above, and provide your ton's of proof fromt the Quraan and Sunnaah that he is not. When I get home, I will post a few, insha' Allah.

And as for the thread about aboveness - you are playing with words and being indirect. We all agree that Allah is above, and the Qur'an and Sunnah attest to that. However, we understand that "above" is in reference to the High status of Allah and in reference to His authority. It's sort of like in English when a person says "the lawyer appealed his case to the court above." The word 'above,' neither in English nor in Arabic, is limited to a spatial aboveness. If you understand Allah to be in a place or a direction, then you do not have the belief of the Muslims, and you are a mushabbih who likens Allah to the creation.

[adolfadsermens]

It is also true that the Hanbalis and Ash'aris have repeatedly been at odds with one another on matters of Aqidah over the centuries. But, the Ash'aris never denied the validity of the creed of Imam Ahmad. Rather, we reject the anthropomorphic tendencies of those who came later and claimed to believe what He believed (rahimahullah).

This is common accusation of ahsari's against the Ahul Sunnah, when backed to the corner their hatred show's, but this is a topic of another day.




And as for the thread about aboveness - you are playing with words and being indirect. We all agree that Allah is above, and the Qur'an and Sunnah attest to that. However, we understand that "above" is in reference to the High status of Allah and in reference to His authority. It's sort of like in English when a person says "the lawyer appealed his case to the court above." The word 'above,' neither in English nor in Arabic, is limited to a spatial aboveness. If you understand Allah to be in a place or a direction, then you do not have the belief of the Muslims, and you are a mushabbih who likens Allah to the creation. You don't believe Allah(swt) is above, you just negated it and gave a different meanings.

We are here not talking about english court,

Instead of usurping & ruining this thread of the sister, we can discuss this in another thread, or the pre-existing thread on Allah(swt) is above.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29961

You can repeat everything said their. Also please check out the thread on Place that has been closed now, since it would be a waste of time to repeat myself.

I think that is reasonable

Wassalam

[CGH1KZzy]

Salaam.

Are you qualified to talk in such intricate subjects as Kalam? If so from which scholars have you studied under and received authorisation?

[lalpphilalk]

You claimed other's did can you please specify who exactly are your these neo nazis khlaf you so readily name?, as for those who I know they believe Allah(swt) is above his throne. As for you, you don't believe Allah(swt) is above his throne. So what is the contention here?

Many people say this. I've heard it from ignorant laypeople, and I've read it in the writings of ibn Taymiyyah. Truly, this is an ill belief that has been held by some individuals at many varying levels of knowledge.

[adolfadsermens]

Salaam.

Are you qualified to talk in such intricate subjects as Kalam? If so from which scholars have you studied under and received authorisation?

You don't need to be qualified to refute Greek Philosophy, it is niether of the Quraan or Sunaah.

Since this is a thead on the difference of Maturide and Ashari's, I don't wan't to detract from the purpose of this thread as I would like to know these differences.

[adolfadsermens]

Brother i said if your not a Scholar then why get in disputes regarding Theology..?? Didn't Imam ahmad [Ra] being a reputable Alim stay away from it?

Briefly:
Imaam Ahmad refuted thos who said the Quraan is created.

It would be interested, to know the ashari's and Maturidis position on this in detail.

[CGH1KZzy]

Salaam.

“Imam Ahmad and Ibn Majah narrated from the Prophet SalAllahu 'Alaihi wa-sallam, that he said: “Whoever issues a verdict without knowledge, then the sin will be on the one who issues the verdict.” In al-Bukhari and Muslim, it is narrated in the Hadeeth of ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas, from the Prophet, SalAllahu 'Alaihi wa-sallam, “Verily, Allah does not take knowledge by removing it from the breasts of men, rather he takes knowledge by taking the scholars (in death); until when no scholar remains, people take the ignorant as their leaders, and ask them questions, while they pass verdicts without knowledge, and become astray and lead others astray.”

Is this not the modern day fitnah, where the layman considers himself a Scholar.

[ZIDouglas]

^

Subahan Allah, So true Akhi...





A question:
I read Imam Tahawi's interpretation of the Aqeedah as I thought that was the best Interpretation out there, would I be wrong in following his Interpretation?

Walaikum Assalal Wa Rahmatullah

[CGH1KZzy]

Salaam.

Aqeedah At Tahawiyyah, is accepted, by all of ahl sunnah, best to study it with a reliable scholar.

[namaikaimvputka]

Salaam.

Yes I also wan't to know the difference in detail.

Also bit more translation please.

I am sorry, the answer I provided was written by Mufti Hoosain Kadodia.. It wasnt my answer ... Its a copy paste work... no offense..

[chzvacmyye]

Why would I want to do that? Rasoolullah said that His Ummah would be split into 73 groups, each of which is in Hellfire except for one - and when He was asked which is that one, He replied "al-Jamaa3ah" (the majority). The Ash'aris and Maturidis have been the majority since the founding of their schools. And the beliefs of the Ash'aris and Maturidis have been the majority since the time of Rasoolullah Himself .

this is off-topic, but i should point out to you - that the word "al-jamaa'ah" in the context u are referring to actually means "those who are on the truth", and not necessarily "the majority".

an example to illustrate this point, during the time of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the caliph declared that the Quran was created.........with Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal being one of the few scholars to reject such a claim.

now in this case, who is al-jamaa'ah?? is it the majority or is it Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal??