[AmfitNom]

this is off-topic, but i should point out to you - that the word "al-jamaa'ah" in the context u are referring to actually means "those who are on the truth", and not necessarily "the majority".

an example to illustrate this point, during the time of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the caliph declared that the Quran was created.........with Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal being one of the few scholars to reject such a claim.

now in this case, who is al-jamaa'ah?? is it the majority or is it Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal??

As Salamu Alaikum

In order to answer this question we turn to another related hadith regarding the 73 sects:

"...Are those who follow my and my Sahaba's path" (Tirmidhi 2.89)

Imam Al-Tirmidhi's (ra) commentary: "The explanation of al- Jama'ah according to the people of knowledge: They are the people of Fiqh, knowledge and Hadith." (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, 4/2167; Ahmad Shakir ed'n)

I would believe the point is to stick to the main Jamat, which would refer to the Ahl-ul-Sunnah Wa'l Jamat.

However if there is no Jama't and no Caliph, we than have to follow the advice of Rasullilah (salalahu alahi wasalam):

"Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman........I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state." (Bukhari 9.88.206)

Allah knows best.

[chzvacmyye]

I would believe the point is to stick to the main Jamat, which would refer to the Ahl-ul-Sunnah Wa'l Jamat. Allah knows best. what do u mean by main jamat??

[AmfitNom]

what do u mean by main jamat??

The one Community that has been around since the Sahaba (may Allah be pleased with them).

[lalpphilalk]

Oh that would be great, please do not let me stop you.

A few proofs that the Ash'aris and Maturidis are on the correct path:

qaal allahu ta3aalaa: { يايها الذين ءامنوا من يرتد منكم عن دينه فسوف يأتي الله بقوم يحبهم ويحبونه أذلة على المؤمنين أعزة على الكافرين يجهدون في سبيل الله ولا يخافون لومة لائم ذلك فضل الله يؤتيه من يشاء والله وسع عليم } [al-Maa'idah: 54]

It has been translated as
"O you who have attained to faith! If you ever abandon your faith," God will in time bring forth [in your stead] people whom He loves and who love Him - humble towards the believers, proud towards all who deny the truth: [people] who strive hard in God's cause, and do not fear to be censured by anyone who might censure them: such is God's favour, which He grants unto whom He wills. And God is infinite, all-knowing."
The Haafidh ibn Asaakir and also al-Haakim narrate that when this ayah was revealed Rasoolullah pointed to Abu Musa al-Ash'ari and said what means "they are the nation of this one." And Imam al-Qurtobi narrated in his tafseer that Imam al-Qushayri said what means, "The followers of Abul-Hasan al-Ash'ari (the founder of the Ash'ari school) are among his (Abu Musa al-Ash'ari's) nation."

The haafidh al-Bayhaqi said what means, "That's because of the majestic virtue and noble status of Imam Abul-Hasan al-Ash'ari, may Allah have riDaa' on him. He is part of the nation of Abu Musa and among his descendants who brought knowledge and spread understanding, and stands out among them for strengthening the sunnah and suppressing bid'ah by making the proof clear and by refuting doubt." Narrated by ibn Asaakir.

Imam al-Bukhari mentioned in his Saheeh, in the chapter about the greatness of the Ash'aris and the people of Yemen that Rasoolullah said about them what means, "They are of Me and I am of them."

Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal and al-Haakim both narrated the Saheeh hadith in which Rasoolullah said what means, "Constantinople will be opened (ie. conquered by the Muslim army), and what a GREAT leader that leader is, and what a great army that army is." Who was the one who conquered Constantinople? It was Sultan Muhammad FaatiH, and he was an Ash'ari.


Just to name a few other Ash'aris whom you might have heard of:
Imam al-Ismaili, Imam al-Bayhaqi, Imam ibn Asakir, ibn Hajar al-Asqalaani, the renewer of the 4th century: Abut-Tayyib Sahl bin Muhammad, Imam al-Baahili, Imam ibn Furuk, Imam al-Baaqillaani, Imam al-Asfaraayeeni, Imam al-Asbahaani
al-Qaadhi abdul-Wahhab al-Maliki, Shaykh Abu Muhammad al-Juwayni, his son Imam al-haramayn, the Haafidh al-Daraqutni, the Haafidh al-khateeb al-Baghdadi, Imam al-Qushayri, his son Abu Nasr, Imam ash-Shiraazi, Nasr ul-Maqdisi, Imam al-Ghazali, Imam al-Faraawi, ibn Aqeel al-Hanbali, the judge of judges al-Daamighaani al-hanafi, Abul Waleed al-Baajee al-Maliki, Imam Sayyid Ahmad ur-Rifaa'i, ibn Sam3aani, al-Qadhi 3iyyaadh, the haafidh as-Salafi, Imam an-Nawawi, Imam fakhruddeen ar-Razi, al3izz bin abdissalaam, Abu Amr bin al-Haajib al-Maliki, the Haafidh ibn Daqeeq al-3eed, Alaa'uddeen al-Baaji, the judge of judges Taqiyuddeen as-Subki, the Haafidh al-alaa'i, the haafidh Zayn ud-deen al-Iraqi, his son Waliyuddeen, the Haafidh Murtada az-Zabeedi al-hanafi, Shaykh ul-Islam Zakariyya al-Ansari, Shaykh Bahaa'uddeen ar-Riwaas as-Sufi, the Mufti of Mecca Ahmad Zayni Dahlan, Waliyullah ad-Dahlawi, The Mufti of Egypt Shaykh Muhammad Ulaysh al-Maliki, The Shaykh of al-Azhar Mosque Abdullah ash-Sharqaawi, Imam al-Qaawuqji, Shaykh Husayn al-Jisr at-Tarabulusi, al-Haakim an-Naysapoori (the author of al-Mustadrak), Imam as-Sunoosi, Imam al-Haddad and all of the scholars of Hadramawt from the Aal of Alawi and as-Saqqaaf and al-Junayd, and al-3aydaroos.

Let's not forget Salahuddeen al-Ayyubi, who ordered that Aqidah be broadcast from the minarets using the phrasing that Imam al-Ash'ari used. Not to mention tons of other scholars and pious rulers. Truly, to name all of the Ash'aris would take me more than the term of my natural life.

I close out by referencing the hadith that I mentioned earlier: The saved sect is "al-Jamaa'ah" (the majority). The so-called Salafis have NEVER been a majority of the Muslims. The Ash'aris and Maturidis have been the majority since their inception.

[lalpphilalk]

now in this case, who is al-jamaa'ah?? is it the majority or is it Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal??

No, in that Hadith, it means "the majority" as many, very many scholars have explained it.

And at the time of Imam Ahmad, just because there was a corrupt ruler who had been swayed by the Mu'tazilaa, doesn't mean that the true Aqidah was in the minority. It most certainly was not. And the people used to gather around Imam Ahmad's windows while he was in jail just to try to get teachings from him, because they knew that he was right and the ruler was wrong.

Even at that time, the majority had the correct aqidah.

[chzvacmyye]

No, in that Hadith, it means "the majority" as many, very many scholars have explained it.

And at the time of Imam Ahmad, just because there was a corrupt ruler who had been swayed by the Mu'tazilaa, doesn't mean that the true Aqidah was in the minority. It most certainly was not. And the people used to gather around Imam Ahmad's windows while he was in jail just to try to get teachings from him, because they knew that he was right and the ruler was wrong.

Even at that time, the majority had the correct aqidah.

so what ur saying is that the majority agreed with Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, but Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was one of the few scholars to stand up to the caliph.

sorry, but that doesn't make sense......why were the majority silent in such an important matter??

[lalpphilalk]

sorry, but that doesn't make sense......why were the majority silent in such an important matter??

Who said they were silent? What gave you that idea? The ruler only targeted certain people, most people were not targeted. Just because many people were not beaten, it doesn't mean that they must have agreed with the ruler.

If Imam Ahmad was the only one left who had the proper aqidah, then why aren't we all mu'tazilis now?? If he was one of only a handful, then still the Mu'tazilaa would be the overwhelming majority nowadays. But that is not the case. In truth the Mu'tazilaa were never a majority, but during a certain period of history, they had influence, and they influenced the caliph. But the absolute number of their followers was never a majority.

[sesWaipunsaws]

Thank you very much for all your posts dear brothers and sisters, I'm still not very sure which school of theology I belong to...Will someone help me out?

May Allah subhanawata'ala forgive me, but in my belief and the way I was taught, Allah is not in a particular direction, nor does He literally have face or hands (because that would be likening Him to His creations), them being metaphorical as symbols of His Power, His Strength, His Beauty and His Knowledge that encompasses everything in existence. This was what I was taught as a child whenever I got confused as to where Allah subhana wa ta'ala the Creator was and what He looked like (may Allah forgive me, I was a curious child). I was also taught that in Jannah we will be able to see Allah Almighty in a spiritual sense, and see Him through our spiritual eyes and not with our mortal/physical eyes. Where does this fall under, Ashari or Maturidi?

[lalpphilalk]

Thank you very much for all your posts dear brothers and sisters, I'm still not very sure which school of theology I belong too...Will someone help me out?

May Allah subhanawata'ala forgive me, but in my belief and the way I was taught, Allah is not in a particular direction, nor does He literally have face or hands (because that would be likening Him to His creations), them being metaphorical as symbols of His Power, His Strength, His Beauty and His Knowledge that encompasses everything in existence. This was what I was taught as a child whenever I got confused as to where Allah subhana wa ta'ala the Creator was and what He looked like (may Allah forgive me, I was a curious child). I was also taught that in Jannah we will be able to see Allah Almighty in a spiritual sense, and see Him through our spiritual eyes and not with our mortal/physical eyes. Where does this fall under, Ashari or Maturidi?

These sorts of things are agreed upon by both schools.

[sesWaipunsaws]

These sorts of things are agreed upon by both schools.

I understand that the majority of Muslims belong in these two schools, but there is another school which takes things more literally...is this the Athari school of thought followed by the Salafis? Are all Hanbalis and Salafis followers of the Athari school of theology? I understand that a few very strict Salafis consider the the Maturidi and Ashari theologies out of the fold of Ahl Sunnah, I have also encountered scholars following the Maturidi/Ashari theologies who consider the strict followers of the Salafi theology out of the fold of Ahl Sunnah. It gets quite confusing

[lalpphilalk]

I understand that the majority of Muslims belong in these two schools, but there is another school which takes things more literally...is this the Athari school of thought followed by the Salafis? Are all Hanbalis and Salafis followers of the Athari school of theology? I understand that a few very strict Salafis consider the the Maturidi and Ashari theologies out of the fold of Ahl Sunnah, I have also encountered scholars following the Maturidi/Ashari theologies who consider the strict followers of the Salafi theology out of the fold of Ahl Sunnah. It gets quite confusing

Don't worry about all of that stuff. Just know that the Ash'aris and Maturidis are both correct. And seek out a qualified teacher from either of these schools to teach you Aqidah. Your teacher can then answer your other questions.

Traditionally, most Malikis have been Ash'ari. If you live in Jeddah, there should be some Habaa'ib there who can teach you.

[duncanalisstmp]

Question
Q1: Would you be so kind as to list the differences between the Asharis and the Maturidis. I have heard that there are 13 differences between the two schools, but only 6 of these are "real" differences. Could you list those six?
Q2: Is it allowed for a person to follow the Ashari school in most of the issues and the Maturidi school in some of the issues, or vice-versa?

Answer

Shaikhul Islam Ibn Kamaal Baasha, has enumerated 12 differences between the Asharis and Maaturidis. We hereunder list 9 of them"A" refers to Asharis, "M" to Maaturidis)

1.
A- Takween is a Sifat fi'liyyah, is not azali and is haadith.
M- takween is from the Sifaat Azaliyyah
2.
A- Speech (Kalaam) of Allah can be heard
M- Kalaam of Allah cannot be heard; what is heard is that which points to it.
3.
A- Hikmah meaning "perfection" is not a quality of Allah
M- It is a sifah of Allah
4.
A- Both the Ridha(Pleasure) and Irada (intention) of Allah is connected to everything.
M- The Irada of Allah is connected to everything, not the Ridha
5.
A- "Takleef ma laa yutaaq"(Burdening more than is bearable) is Jaiz
M- Not Jaiz
6.
A-Laws connected to "Takleef" can only be received directly from Nass
M- Some such laws can be grasped by intellect
7.
A-Forgiving Kufr is Jaiz Aqlan not Sam'an
M- Not Jaiz
8.
A- Possible for a mu'min to remain in Jahannum forever and for a kaafir to remin in Jannah forever
M- Not possible
9.
A- Being a male is not a condition for being a Nabi
M- Being a male is a condition B.

If one happens to be a well-grounded alim,who is well-versed in Aqeedah, then it could be acceptable for him to follow another school in some issues.

Many famous scholars eg. Razi, Ghazali, Ibn Humaam etc had differences with the school they followed.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Ml. Husain Kadodia STUDENT:
Darul Ifta
CHECKED & APPROVED:
Mufti Ebrahim Desai

al-salam `alaikum.

A more complete translation is available at:

The Disagreements between the Ash`aris & Maturidis