[teewHettive]

Dear all,

I would just like to reply to some Users on the other thread where given the sad circumstances we should not write any more. (Well, I won't).

I am sorry that things got a little out of hand and I was too extreme in my arguments this morning. It was just that everyone was throwing arguments at me and I tried to reply as quickly as possible, but it got too heated unfortunately.

Dear Sudoku, I am not looking for a fight. I refer again to many terrible things I have read. I am sorry if I sound provocative, I am in fact here to find answers. So you provided me with a good answer concerning stoning. I can assure you that people will say a lot of bad things in the forum of my newspaper (event the ones with a university education) because of this event, thanks to you and other users I can explain that extreme crimes are not tolerated by , how shall I call it?, mainstream interpretation and thus can help to promote understandin and tolerance.

[metropropuskruww]

^Sorry, can you tell us what your exact question regarding stoning is?

P.S. It seems you have more than one question. My advice would be don't ask them all at once. Go one at a time with different questions. It'll be easier for everyone.

[teewHettive]

Dear Marco, thank you for pointing ou that maybe I should believe in God before "judging" as you say it your religion, interesting point. You see, in secular societies like mine we are taught to question everything and that human values must be universal und untouchable. So we think that religion because of its dogmas may be dangerous to human rights if too extreme. Believe me I wouldn't want to be governed by fundamentalist Christians either (even if it is my religion)not even liberal ones. I believe in the separation of state and religion and the constitution. Again, I don't consider myself "better" because I am European, I just try to understand. I am sorry if I may have hurt your feelings while trying to argument my opinions.

Please feel free to point out any flaw of the West/Europe/US you like or that you would like to discuss , there is a 98% chance that I will agree with you.

[teewHettive]

^Sorry, can you tell us what your exact question regarding stoning is?

P.S. It seems you have more than one question. My advice would be don't ask them all at once. Go one at a time with different questions. It'll be easier for everyone.

Thank you Binte, I'll get back to you just after answering the older posts.

[metropropuskruww]

Thank you Binte, I'll get back to you just after answering the older posts.

You're welcome. I'll check back then .

[teewHettive]

Dear Ahmad, than you for your post. I am not saying that US wouldn't lie about the pornographic material. International diplomacy is a dirty thing and propaganda an even dirtier tool. So I said "Let's just assume it happened". See, sadly, in the post about the stoning I was told minimum 5 times that it was Western propaganda and now I hear that it is true...
But I am sorry if I hurt your religious feelings with the issue. As I already said I find polygamy a bit more upsetting than pornographic material (why wouldn't a rich woman be allowed to do it, if it is for caring about the poor f.e.?), but this is a different issue. Sorry again.
If you think that he is innocent, I think he said himself that he did and many others (your Muslim brothers) accused him of it. But if you believe he is innocent of course he is a good person for you.

[teewHettive]

Dear Ahmed, thank you for your second post explaining what is not allowed. You say retaliation is not allowed. What about this woman who was thrown acid in her face and is now allowed to blind the man who did it? Sorry you say that Islamic states can not come to live because of people like me? Are you joking????????????????????????????????? Do I go around blaming Muslims that are tens of thousands km away and have nothing to do with me for the things that go wrong in my country? Take responsibility for your own life.

You can do whatever you want in your countries.

Is Saudi-Arabia or Iran not an Islamic state by the way?

And if you fell the need to call me "ignorant" because I cite what I read and I did not like it, that's your issue. Glad to know that you seem to know everything. You came up to me and said "Annalina I heard this and that about France and I don't like it" I would not call you ignorant I would present arguments...

[KuRoregioNka]

Dear Marco, thank you for pointing ou that maybe I should believe in God before "judging" as you say it your religion, interesting point. You see, in secular societies like mine we are taught to question everything and that human values must be universal und untouchable. So we think that religion because of its dogmas may be dangerous to human rights if too extreme. Believe me I wouldn't want to be governed by fundamentalist Christians either (even if it is my religion)not even liberal ones. I believe in the separation of state and religion and the constitution. Again, I don't consider myself "better" because I am European, I just try to understand. I am sorry if I may have hurt your feelings while trying to argument my opinions.

Please feel free to point out any flaw of the West/Europe/US you like or that you would like to discuss , there is a 98% chance that I will agree with you.

in secular societies you are not taught to question anything. you might think so but you're not. the media, schooling everything is geared towards feeding you what the state wants you to believe. it's the rule of a few who decide what is good for the mass populace not the other way round.

did you have any say in how a country should be run? how is a politician any better than you or me to decide how the country should be run? they're better qualified? in what way is a politician better qualified than the average joe? what life experience has he/she got? because they decided to stand for an election that defacto makes them more qualified? if this wasn't the case, why is it that the general masses are fed up of lying incompetent politicians? worth pondering on.

anyway you look at it, it's the law of the jungle.

there are thousands of varying viewpoints on every aspect of social construct. so who decides who is right?.

this comes back to first asking who is the ultimate authority on morality and lawmaking, and that can ONLY be THE highest authority; God.

so then we can argue does God exist and who is He?

start from A and work your way slowly to B. otherwise you'll never get anywhere other than making yourself out to be "God" because you're superior to others in your mind.

[metropropuskruww]

You can do whatever you want in your countries.

Is Saudi-Arabia or Iran not an Islamic state by the way?

Just thought I'd clarify. No, they are not entirely Islamic states - for that you have to entirely employ the shariah, which neither does. In fact, no Islamic state currently exists in the world.

[KuRoregioNka]

Annalina you've continuously made remarks about what you've heard and supposedly seen in the media about the actions of certain sections of a muslim community and made sweeping generalisations on a religion based on that. i'll put that down to ignorance and a lack of authentic information from ISLAMIC scriptures on said scenarios.

however, you've never asked muslims on this forum to present to you from authentic Islamic scriptures to absolve Islam of any wrongdoing. Instead, you've moved onto another topic, then another, then another.

I'm more than happy to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but if you don't LISTEN how will you LEARN if this is indeed your purpose of visiting this forum?

In the end, you'll be taken as a mischief maker and we've had plenty of them I tell you.

[teewHettive]

Dear Ahmed,

Regarding the burka, stoning for adultery and young marriages, please tell me what your actual problem with these things are so that they can be discussed?

Ahmed, please read my posts in the stoning forum again then you will see my arguments.


You say I provide no basis for the claim of girls in France. Well, to answer, there are some, and I say SOME girls that are forced to wear the veil at school. This makes them different, an outsider. Parents will not let them take part in sports, school excursions or going out with friends in the evening. She will be left out of so many experiences and adventures in the name of religion. I know you approve of it. I don't sadly.


She may be pressurised into marrying a guy she does not want to marry. I know personally of a Turkish girl that killed herself because of that and a Tunisian girl (very pious by the way) who was pressured intomarriage
because of her grandmothers wishes and later divorced. Of the sexual intercourse with the husband ,she called it "rape". This is a Muslim girl speaking here, not me.


Again, you are right, I use my "subjective morals" to aprove or criticise. This is what I think is right.

[teewHettive]

I don't just think that there are serious problems in the Islamic world, I KNOW there are. However, this is due to the lack of Islam, so what's your point? You are again judging the religion on the basis of the actions of some people, whereas you should judge the religion on the teachings of the religion itself. Your logic again makes no sense


Dear Ahmed, please remeber I am a beginner. If you think more Islam would be good I cannot answer it is too complicated for me. I am just saying that many things I read about I don't approve of and I don't know if it is your religious law or an interpretation of a fundamentalist, you see?

[slimfifa]

I'll repost this here:

You see, take the question of child marriage. Arif tells me it is a matter of
tradition.

It's not a matter of tradition. It's a practice that is not forbidden by Islam, it's not necessarily encouraged, but it's not forbidden, which is the point. It's not something someone has to do, and you're ignoring the fact that both parties in a marriage have to give their consent. If one party or the other is forced into a marriage that they don't want to be in, this is not allowed in Islam and the people who forced the marriage would be punished under the Shariah (ideally. not saying this happens, unfortunately) and by Allah on Qiyamah.

And if you're truly an Atheist, you can't draw moral absolutes because you can't logically have an objective moral view. You can't prove something is "wrong" or "right" from an Atheist point of view because there is no higher authority (in an Atheist's opinion) to make such a determination. So what you do is make judgements based on what you "feel" rather than what is "logical". From an honest Atheist's perspective morality does not exist because it's entirely subjective. You can't logically define "wrong" or "right" or "moral" or "immoral" all you can do is attempt to force your cultural norms on to other people or accept the fact that people have different beliefs and there is no objective basis (ignoring Islam, again) on which to state a belief is correct or not and you certainly cannot refer to a practice as "wrong" or "right" because these are complete abstractions in the absence of real religion.

I'm not saying people should be cold, calculating robots if they're not Muslim, but you can't call yourself an Atheist and claim to be logical if you don't act logically within your belief system (And Islam is the only logical conclusion to life, but that's not the point I'm trying to make at the moment).

No one agrees on what constitutes a child mentally or emotionally—all anyone agrees on is that physically childhood ends sometime around the onset of puberty. Even in Europe the age of consent varies wildly from 13-18 and in the US it's from 16-18, and it varies even more all across the world.

But Western secularists can't even agree on this age. If you cross state lines in the US, the age of consent won't even be the same. That's because it's an arbitrary number that was pretty much randomly decided.

Ok, then my next question would be if tradition can not be
changed because time and society change. No, absolutely not. Islam does not change. The only changes to Islam are superficial ones (for the most part) that have nothing to do with fundamental belief. For example: broadcasting the Athan from speakers instead of having a man announce it from the top of a tower or being able to read the Qur'an on a computer.

In Islam, innovations and inventions into the religion are called bid'ah, and they are specifically and harshly forbidden in most cases.

And our beliefs are not "traditions" the Qur'an and the Ahadith are the basis of the Divine Law called the Shariah. We follow the law of Allah and the Prophet , not some traditions.

In my opinion a loving God would understand that we shouldn't live like
thousands of years ago any more, society is evolving and it's a good thing
to adapt things that suddenly seem outdated, in my opinion at least. Islam is the standard for Islam. Islam doesn't change. Why should we change Islam based on the feelings and baseless opinions of non-Muslims that change every decade? What if 50 years from now "child marriage" is okay in America and France? What if in 50 years all the Western people start thinking Muslims are wussies because we only chop the hand off of a thief and they have started to skin thieves alive?

Why should Divine Revelation from the Creator of the Universe himself be held to the standards of men who are fallible? Allah is infallible. Can't you see how arrogant that sounds to any religious person? You're saying that society knows better than Allah, which is absolutely ridiculous to us.

Also, I thought it was Verdana who told me that in his country
there is zero GFM. Great, I think, but then I ask myself why
he won't mention his country. Is he afraid of something? He gave you a link, apparently you didn't click it. His country is Turkey.

Concerning my posts in the modesty thread you are right -
it's a mess. I mix up asking questions and seeking spiritual
guidance. If you want to really learn about Islam, you should get a translation of the Qur'an in the language you are most comfortable in, and a Sira (biography of the prophet), and start looking at some websites and books written by scholars of Islam. It will be difficult for you to get an accurate idea of Islam by asking laymen.

It is not my personal life that makes me question
my faith, no, I was responsible for my actions and was
never forced, thank God. It is rather the terrible
state of the world, when I open a newspaper I feel like
killing myself, there is so much bad going on,
you see what I mean? How does that logically disprove the existence of God, though? I understand your sentiments to a degree as I was an Atheist before I converted to Islam, but I was a huge misanthrope rather than being depressed when I wasn't Muslim.

Also, faith won't come, so I admire the Islamic faith I guess.
You have such a strength in your faith, I am impressed by it. Masha'Allah, that's awesome. If you're serious though you should look to more scholarly outlets for answers to your more sensitive questions. This is a great place for learning, but it's always better to refer matters to reliable informed people, rather than take chances, especially with topics that are more misunderstood/controversial.

They mean that life is life and afterwards there is nothing,
but that that's ok with them. I find that easier to believe
than in a real God, even though I would prefer it the other way round. You should watch this video (the whole series) when you can find the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCCqyli5h7k I think that it might help you a lot, Allah willing.
In fact, I'd recommend watching as many of Khalid Yasin's lectures as you can, he's not a Scholar per say but he's very good at dawah (which is basically calling people to Islam). He has a gift for presenting the basics of Islam very clearly and persuasively and he's widely recognized for this.

Anyway, thany you very much and also thank you for pointing out
that religion is not the people, I tend to forget that a lot
I guess. There is a saying that goes Aany group of people
will be judged by the actions of the idiots in it", this is not an insult against
Islam, please! It goes for any group, but I guess that's why I read so much
negative things about Islam, some are doing bad things. Of course, and as long as you keep this in mind, I think it will be easier for you to learn the truth, .


One more thing I wanted to address was when you complained of people here insulting others by calling them "dogs", etc.

This is not a part of Islam. Our beloved Prophet never insulted anyone. The "meanest" thing he ever said to anyone who did something offensive was "may dust be thrown in your face". We're not really supposed to insult anyone, and this is not a practice encouraged or condoned by Islam.

I'll try to find some more links from reputable websites and Scholars to help you get a clearer picture of Islam, and I hope other brothers and sisters will do the same. I'll try to get those for you soon, .

[ronaldasten]

Dear Ahmed,

Regarding the burka, stoning for adultery and young marriages, please tell me what your actual problem with these things are so that they can be discussed?

Ahmed, please read my posts in the stoning forum again then you will see my arguments.


You say I provide no basis for the claim of girls in France. Well, to answer, there are some, and I say SOME girls that are forced to wear the veil at school. This makes them different, an outsider. Parents will not let them take part in sports, school excursions or going out with friends in the evening. She will be left out of so many experiences and adventures in the name of religion. I know you approve of it. I don't sadly.

Thank you for claryifing. In answer, I say this: the commandment to wear the hijab is from God so you have no right to criticize it nor to reject it despite your adversion to it. Now, the only answer you could have to this is whether God commands women to veil or not, which can be easily proved to you...

She may be pressurised into marrying a guy she does not want to marry. I know personally of a Turkish girl that killed herself because of that and a Tunisian girl (very pious by the way) who was pressured intomarriage
because of her grandmothers wishes and later divorced. Of the sexual intercourse with the husband ,she called it "rape". This is a Muslim girl speaking here, not me.

That's unislamic. So your judging Islam on unislamic practices...again

Again, you are right, I use my "subjective morals" to aprove or criticise. This is what I think is right.

LOL thats awful logic. Just because you think something is right does not neccessarily make it so. Again, my claim is that right or wrong comes from God so should not the logical step forward for you have been to ask for our proof that God exists, and He is as we believe He is, and He commands what we say he commands?

P.S I apologise if I come off rude but I come across this stuff too many times... It is not my intention to be rude or to offend you

[teewHettive]

Dear ahmed,

Just because YOU don't read about such things done to people of other faiths doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it just means YOU don't read about it. This could be because it was unreported, or you don't read as much or as widely as perhaps you should, amongst other possible reasons


Well, it may not be perfect in other countries, you are right but I am talking about an institutionalized way of fundamentalism (Afghanistan, Saudi-Arabia) that enslaves women (in my opinion). This semms to have the acceptance of many people in these countries. This is unique in the world, there is no non-Muslim country that would do this to women as a part of their religious interpretation. And the more you say that it's not true the more negative the stereotypes of people in their head will become.


Another point to make clear is that such acts (genital mutilation, disfigurement, etc) are pre Islamic acts which have just survived despite the efforts of Muslims to eradicate them. They occur in Jewish, Christian, Hindu, etc societies and are not limited or exclusive to the Muslim societies


Really? Well, if it is true then I didn't know it and never read it. That's why I am in this forum by the way...


Even if the 'someone' was a known liar? Or a madman? Or just misinformed? You wouldn't bother checking? Strange... and very prejudiced, I must add

Are you calling all Wester media journalists newsreporters liars? There are lies, of course, but generally the system is working. We are not after you, you know. We have high unemployment, economic crisies, Euro debt crises, believe me we have better things to do then make up untrue stories about Islam.

[ronaldasten]

Dear Ahmad, than you for your post. I am not saying that US wouldn't lie about the pornographic material. International diplomacy is a dirty thing and propaganda an even dirtier tool. So I said "Let's just assume it happened". See, sadly, in the post about the stoning I was told minimum 5 times that it was Western propaganda and now I hear that it is true...

First, most posts pointed out the POSSIBILITY of being propoganda, and didn't neccessarily say that it was. Second, just because you HEARD it's true from an unnamed source of possibly dubious trustworthiness, doesn't mean it's true. See, I also HEARD from my teachers in school when I was a kid that Santa Claus existed and even my parents told me he did; but guess what? Santa Claus isn't real

But I am sorry if I hurt your religious feelings with the issue. As I already said I find polygamy a bit more upsetting than pornographic material (why wouldn't a rich woman be allowed to do it, if it is for caring about the poor f.e.?), but this is a different issue. Sorry again.

The reason why polygamy is allowed is because God Himself allows it. The wisdom behind the rulings may differ; of course it helps poor women, widows, divorcees etc but these aren't the only reasons that God, in His infinite wisdom, permits a man to have upto four wives

If you think that he is innocent, I think he said himself that he did and many others (your Muslim brothers) accused him of it. But if you believe he is innocent of course he is a good person for you.

No, he said he didn't do it and as no evidence has been presented to the contrary, I will follow the legal maxim 'innocent until proven guilty'. But yeah, not really the point of the thread

[teewHettive]

In Islam, rapists etc are criminals too. Yet you again try to judge Islam just by looking at 'islamic' societies' (you call them that, I don't) rather than the teachings of the religion. Oh, and your wrong about this 3 witnesses thing

Dear Ahmed,

I am a beginner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is an "Islamic" society not the teaching of the religion? Then what else?

The 3 witnesses thing - I read about it about an Australian woman who was working in one of the Gulf states and was raped and thrown in prison because of the witnesses thing. By the way, the rapists were not Muslims I think, but Hindi.. I have to look it up again on google, can't remember all the details now..

[teewHettive]

I do understand the reasons why you would believe this story, although they are terrible. Amongst the reasons is your ready acceptance of everything the media throws at you and your lack of Islamic knowledge


Dear Ahmed, the story is sadly true.

Would you not like to apologize to me?

I am not a hater of your religion, you know???

[teewHettive]

In a recent Islamophobia conference held in Europe, I can't remember the name at the moment. This majestic guy went on to explain how it was rude and cruel everything regarding to Niqab and Burqa... in the middle of his speech a Muslim lady in complete hijab stood up and said, have you asked us Muslims women if you want our hijab and if we are happy with it or not? The guy got shot silent and couldn't utter a word.

Dear Nomadic, of course you are right here in my view. Nice story. That's why I am against the burqua ban in France. Problem is that there are some chances that the women is forced to wear it, no?

[metropropuskruww]

I do understand the reasons why you would believe this story, although they are terrible. Amongst the reasons is your ready acceptance of everything the media throws at you and your lack of Islamic knowledge


Dear Ahmed, the story is sadly true.

Would you not like to apologize to me?

I am not a hater of your religion, you know???

Can you tell us where you got this info from? You can't believe any piece of journalism out there without investigating it first. If it is true, then indeed its sad, but you also have to understand that Islam doesn't condone such a punishment (stoning) in the case that was mentioned.