[aliceingoogs]

What is the opinion of the Shafi` Madhab in regards to where the hands should be placed in Qiyam?

I've heard the following claims:

1. Above the navel but below the chest

2. On the chest

3. Either of the above two opinions, i.e. anything above the navel.

So, what is the truth? And could I be directed towards evidence?

[aliceingoogs]

What I found in `Umdat as-Salik was what I labeled as opinion 1.

Is this the Mu`tamid opinion?

[DaleJrGirl]

What I found in `Umdat as-Salik was what I labeled as opinion 1.

Is this the Mu`tamid opinion?

I don't know what is the mu'tamad position but from young age we were taught to do #1 and I first encountered #2 when we went to Makkah

[ropinirole]

Both options are correct as both ways are practiced in Islam in different countries. Mostly option 1 is practiced in Indo-Pak. these are minor things. Direct yourself to learn the wisdom of Salat that's the real essence.

[GeraldCortis]

as Salamu alaikum,

Imam al-Nawawi says in Minhaj al-Talibin along with Khatib's commentary, " and (al-Khatib: it is recommended) to place the hands below the chest (al-Khatib: and above the navel)." (Mughni al-Muhtaj)

Some of our Fuqaha mention that one should place one's hands just below the chest instead of directly above the navel.

[Eunatis]

I don't know if you've checked this book already, but this is an excerpt from "Salah of a Believer in Qur'an and Sunnah" by Shaykh Riyadhul Haq:

Imam Shafi'i says that they should be placed above the navel but below the chest.[274] Imam Nawwawi discusses this in his commentary of Muslim saying, 'This is the better known ruling of our madhab'. He also says in Sharh al-Muhaddhab, 'He should place them below his chest and above his navel. This is the correct and clear ruling (of our school).'

Imam Shafi'i also has two other narrations but they are not well known: below the navel and on the chest.

__________________________________________________ ________
[274] Muhaddith Yusuf Binnori writes in his Arabic commentary of Tirmidhi, Maa'rif al-Sunnan: 'In our knowledge there is no hadeeth, neither marfu'u nor mawquf that supports or suggests this detailed difference of above the navel but below the chest.'

[Numbiydq]

The Prophet PBUH said "Pray as you have seen me praying" (Sahih Bukhari Book 1 Vol 1, Hadith 604)
and you are saying "Both options are correct". Its the responsibilty of every muslim who classifies himself as the follower of Syedna Mohamad SAWS to know how his/her prophet prayed instead of listing to other people and presenting their views as a proof like "Maulana A says Prophet prayed like this" or say the most repeated pet sentence "Both options are correct".
The billions dollar question is " Why do the Hanafi ladies pray with their hands on their chests when the Prophet PBUH never differentiated in the salat of Man and women per Harkat wal sakanat of Nimaz?"
I think i need to highlight this " Harkat wal sakant" portion.

Some people are of the view that all the laws of salah are common to both men and women, and that there is no difference between them. They also claim that the hadeeth 'Pray as you have seen me praying' is general and, therefore, should be applied equally to both men and women. It should be realised, however, that our own interpretation and logical inference of this hadeeth cannot compare with the other ahadeeth of the Messenger of Allah ( صلى الله عايه وسالم ) and the verdicts and practice of the Sahabah and Tabi'un ( رضئ الله عنهم ).

You may find the following of benefit inshallah:

http://www.muftisays.com/blog/Seifed...and-women.html

http://www.muftisays.com/blog/abu+mo...the-women.html

[Htb48JBf]

Some people are of the view that all the laws of salah are common to both men and women, and that there is no difference between them. They also claim that the hadeeth 'Pray as you have seen me praying' is general and, therefore, should be applied equally to both men and women. It should be realised, however, that our own interpretation and logical inference of this hadeeth cannot compare with the other ahadeeth of the Messenger of Allah ( صلى الله عايه وسالم ) and the verdicts and practice of the Sahabah and Tabi'un ( رضئ الله عنهم ).

You may find the following of benefit inshallah:

http://www.muftisays.com/blog/Seifed...and-women.html

http://www.muftisays.com/blog/abu+mo...the-women.html

JazakAllah for the links but i could not find anything specific to the question in hand in those links. Here is the Hanafi take on WHY of the position of women's hands on chests.

"Ibn al-Humam states in his book Fath al-Qadir, �Due to the inconsistency and contradiction s found between the various narrations, it is best to resort to analogy and reasoning. Standing before the Lord demands a posture which expresses respect and reverence. Since positioning the hands beneath the navel is probably the most respectful way of standing, it will be considered most superior. On the other hand, the reason for women being instructed to position their hands on their chest, is so that greater concealment [and modesty] can be achieved by this."
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...&ID=518&CATE=2

Its only and only Qayas which is going against the Hadiths.

[Htb48JBf]

Above all , since the Hanafis accept all the 4 Imams, they should know
1.None of the 4 schools, sanction hands below the Navel in Qayam , except Hanafiya
2.None of the 4 schools have differentiated in the Salat of Male and female arkaan , except Hanafiya

[Numbiydq]

JazakAllah for the links but i could not find anything specific to the question in hand in those links. Here is the Hanafi take on WHY of the position of women's hands on chests.

"Ibn al-Humam states in his book Fath al-Qadir, �Due to the inconsistency and contradiction s found between the various narrations, it is best to resort to analogy and reasoning. Standing before the Lord demands a posture which expresses respect and reverence. Since positioning the hands beneath the navel is probably the most respectful way of standing, it will be considered most superior. On the other hand, the reason for women being instructed to position their hands on their chest, is so that greater concealment [and modesty] can be achieved by this."
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...&ID=518&CATE=2

Its only and only Qayas which is going against the Hadiths.

It all comes down to the preffered opinion (with regards to the prayer of a man). Personally, I place them below the navel. However, if someone else placed them on the chest I dont see a problem with this, although it does appear to be going against the majority:

The View Of The Four Schools Of Fiqh

Hanafi
The author of al Durr al Mukhtaar, explaining the Hanafi position says: 'For men the hands should be below the navel.'

Maliki
Imam Malik (ra) has three narrations: 1) Not fastening the hands at all but letting them hang at the sides. This is the most famous ruling of his madhab. 2) A choice of fastening or letting them hang at the sides. 3) Placing the hands above the navel but below the chest.

Shafi'ee
Imam Shafiee (ra) says that they should be placed above the navel but below the chest. Imam Nawawi (ra) discusses this in his commentary of Muslim saying, 'This is the better known ruling of our Madhab.' He also says in Sharh al Muhaddhab, 'He should place them below his chest and above his navel. This is the correct and clear ruling (of our school).'
Imam Shafiee (ra) also has two other narrations but they are not well known: below the navel and on the chest.

Hanbali
Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal's (ra) view is that that hands should be fastened below the navel. This is his most famous narration and is adopted by virtually all the hanbali ulama.

Ibn al Qayyim (ra) writes in his Badai' al Fawaid that Abu Talib said, 'I asked Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, 'Where should a man place his hands when praying?' He replied, 'Upon the navel or below it.'' [Badai' al Fawaid 3/73]

Tha Hanbali scholar of 18th century Arabia, Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab also says, 'He should then clasp his left wristbone with his right hand and place them below the navel. This signifies humbleness before his Lord, the Almighty.' [Kitab Adaab al Mashy ila al Salah, second section on fiqh, p6]

Sheikh ul Hadeeth Moulana Muhammad Zakariyya quotes the authors of Nail al Maarib, al Anwaar and al Rawdh al Murabb'a in his Awjaz al Masalik and then concludes, 'We learn from this that the preferred and secure narration amongst the Hanbali ulama is that of below the navel.' [Awjaz al Masalik 3/171]

The Hanbali scholar Alaa al Deen al Mardawi writes in his al Insaaf, 'He should place his hands below the navel. This is the Madhhab (of the Hanbali's), and upon this are the clear majority of the Hanbali ulama.' [al Insaaf 1/46]

Imam Ahmed (ra) also has two other narrations: 1) Above the navel but below the chest. 2)A choice of either of the two positions without preference for either.

The Opinion of all the Imams and Ulama can therefore be summarised into three positions

1) Above the navel but below the chest.
2) Below the navel.
3) Not fastening the hands at all, but letting them hang at the sides.

Thus, in reality, there are only two positions of fastening the hands: above the navel, and below it. No school of fiqh advocates the fastening of the hands on the chest.

Abu al tayyib al Madani writes in his commentary on Tirmidhi that none of the four Imams adopted the practise of placing the hands on the chest.

Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah also writes in his Badai' al Fawaid, 'It is makrooh (undesirable) to place the hands on the chest in view of the narration that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) forbade takfeer, which is to place the hands on the chest.' (Bada'i al Fawa'id, 3/73)

[Numbiydq]

Above all , since the Hanafis accept all the 4 Imams, they should know
1.None of the 4 schools, sanction hands below the Navel in Qayam , except Hanafiya

Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal's (ra) view is that that hands should be fastened below the navel. This is his most famous narration and is adopted by virtually all the hanbali ulama.

Ibn al Qayyim (ra) writes in his Badai' al Fawaid that Abu Talib said, 'I asked Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, 'Where should a man place his hands when praying?' He replied, 'Upon the navel or below it.'' [Badai' al Fawaid 3/73]

Tha Hanbali scholar of 18th century Arabia, Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab also says, 'He should then clasp his left wristbone with his right hand and place them below the navel. This signifies humbleness before his Lord, the Almighty.' [Kitab Adaab al Mashy ila al Salah, second section on fiqh, p6]

Sheikh ul Hadeeth Moulana Muhammad Zakariyya quotes the authors of Nail al Maarib, al Anwaar and al Rawdh al Murabb'a in his Awjaz al Masalik and then concludes, 'We learn from this that the preferred and secure narration amongst the Hanbali ulama is that of below the navel.' [Awjaz al Masalik 3/171]

The Hanbali scholar Alaa al Deen al Mardawi writes in his al Insaaf, 'He should place his hands below the navel. This is the Madhhab (of the Hanbali's), and upon this are the clear majority of the Hanbali ulama.' [al Insaaf 1/46]

Imaam Mar’iee ibn Yusuf Al Hanbali states in his “Daleel At-Taalib ‘Alaal Madh-hab Mubajal Al Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal”: “And one places their right upon their left below their navel and looks to place of prostration.”

Al Bahooti states, [Below his navel] It is mustahabb (recommended) due to the statement of ‘Ali (radiallahu anh) “It is from the sunnah to place the right upon the left below the navel.” Reported by Ahmad and Abu Daawood.

[FYvWldC0]

Salam,

I was told #1 and that's what I do.

[Htb48JBf]

Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal's (ra) view is that that hands should be fastened below the navel. This is his most famous narration and is adopted by virtually all the hanbali ulama.

Ibn al Qayyim (ra) writes in his Badai' al Fawaid that Abu Talib said, 'I asked Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, 'Where should a man place his hands when praying?' He replied, 'Upon the navel or below it.'' [Badai' al Fawaid 3/73]

Tha Hanbali scholar of 18th century Arabia, Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab also says, 'He should then clasp his left wristbone with his right hand and place them below the navel. This signifies humbleness before his Lord, the Almighty.' [Kitab Adaab al Mashy ila al Salah, second section on fiqh, p6]

Sheikh ul Hadeeth Moulana Muhammad Zakariyya quotes the authors of Nail al Maarib, al Anwaar and al Rawdh al Murabb'a in his Awjaz al Masalik and then concludes, 'We learn from this that the preferred and secure narration amongst the Hanbali ulama is that of below the navel.' [Awjaz al Masalik 3/171]

The Hanbali scholar Alaa al Deen al Mardawi writes in his al Insaaf, 'He should place his hands below the navel. This is the Madhhab (of the Hanbali's), and upon this are the clear majority of the Hanbali ulama.' [al Insaaf 1/46]

Imaam Mar’iee ibn Yusuf Al Hanbali states in his “Daleel At-Taalib ‘Alaal Madh-hab Mubajal Al Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal”: “And one places their right upon their left below their navel and looks to place of prostration.”

Al Bahooti states, [Below his navel] It is mustahabb (recommended) due to the statement of ‘Ali (radiallahu anh) “It is from the sunnah to place the right upon the left below the navel.” Reported by Ahmad and Abu Daawood.

I am talking about SCHOOLS , not isolated opinions with in the schools or narrations from the 4 Imams. The established positions are as i stated in the two points.

Above all , since the Hanafis accept all the 4 Imams, they should know
1.None of the 4 schools, sanction hands below the Navel in Qayam , except Hanafiya
2.None of the 4 schools have differentiated in the Salat of Male and female arkaan , except Hanafiya

Also . please provide a refutation to point number 2 as well, ie the difference in male and female Salah according to the 3 schools.

[Numbiydq]

The Hanbalis are clearly of the opinion that the hands are to be placed below the navel.

Of course, this will irritate some pseudo-Hanbalis, who are in fact pseudo-salafis!

[Htb48JBf]

The Hanbalis are clearly of the opinion that the hands are to be placed below the navel.

Of course, this will irritate some pseudo-Hanbalis, who are in fact pseudo-salafis!

The main symptom of the " running out of arguments" is the usage of the the term "pseudo-salafis". I hope brother abu zikrya will explain academically the copy/paste in post number 13.

[Imiweevierm]

The main symptom of the " running out of arguments" is the usage of the the term "pseudo-salafis". I hope brother abu zikrya will explain academically the copy/paste in post number 13.

Its actually not a shad opinion akhi, its the standard Hanbali opinion. I just consulted in Umdatul Fiqh and Mukhtasar al-Khiraqi to verify this. I believe its based on a hadith of Ali (ra), perhaps someone more familiar with Hanbali fiqh can elaborate on the actual hadith.

So far as arms in the Shafi`i madhhab: between the chest and naval is the vast majority of everything I have read on this issue. The only time I have read on the chest itself is in a translation of Bidayatul Hidayah but it was translated by a novice orientalist and, as such, I don't really trust it.

[ignonsoli]

Assalam 'Alaykum,

Why such dispute when this was such a simple question?

Assalaamun 'Alaykum.

[pouslytut]

The main symptom of the " running out of arguments" is the usage of the the term "pseudo-salafis". I hope brother abu zikrya will explain academically the copy/paste in post number 13.

[Yswxomvy]

Dr ati before answering your ridiculous claims, Firstly, please mention to me where you place your hands?.

[mnhloot]

Above all , since the Hanafis accept all the 4 Imams, they should know
1.None of the 4 schools, sanction hands below the Navel in Qayam , except Hanafiya
2.None of the 4 schools have differentiated in the Salat of Male and female arkaan , except Hanafiya

After having so many of your other assumptions and claims disproved in other threads, I would have thought you would have stopped making such wild claims. If you are curious, you should ask questions, but don't keep throwing around lies like they are facts.

All four madhhabs "sanction" or allow hands below the navel in qiyam. The salah in none of the madhhabs will be broken if the person prays with the hands below the navels. It is a question of preference. And with regards to preference, although you attempt to make the Hanafi madhhab stand alone, its position is the predominant in the four schools; as the Hanafis and Hanbalis say the preferred position is below the navel, with the other madhhabs differing. As an example see Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi's al-Mughni (vol. 1 p. 514) which transmits authentic Hanbali positions, where he says "he (the musalli) places them (his hands) below his navel." The evidence from the Prophet for this position has been transmitted from Ali and Abu Hurayrah. The evidence from the Prophet for placing the hands on the chest has been transmitted from Tawus (a tabi'i). The Hanafis prefer the latter for women, as it is more concealing for them and the rule for women in all postures is that which is most concealing for them. Hence, the Hanafis act on both sets of hadiths.

As for your second claim or lie, the Hanafi madhhab does not differentiate between the salah of a man and woman in arkan. All the integral parts (arkan) of the salah, like the takbir ihram, standing, bowing, prostrating, final sitting, recitation, are all the same for men and women. There are slight differences in the postures due to the requirement for women being extra concealment, but this is shared with the other madhhabs. For example, Imam al-Nawawi quotes al-Shafi'i in his al-Majmu' Sharh al-Muhadhdhab (vol. 3 p. 495) as saying, "There is no difference between men and women in the actions of salah, but it is preferred for a woman that different parts of her cling to each other and her stomach attaches to her thighs during prostration in the most concealing manner, and I prefer this [i.e. the most concealing position] for her in bowing and in the entire salah," and then al-Nawawi says, "Our [Shafi'i] companions say...the woman differs in that which al-Shafi'i mentioned." The basis for this in hadith is a sound mursal narration found in Abu Dawud's al-Marasil (no. 89, p. 191) in which the Prophet states about the prostration of a woman that she should make parts of her cling to the earth "for the woman is not like the man in this." Mursal narrations are a proof according to the majority of the fuqaha.