[Rffkwfct]

Thread is taking an interesting turn, I assume you're not a Muslim.
Western imperialism or also known as western Jihad, is the source of all the problems in the world.
But let's put that aside.

Why is it important that Muslims accept evolution?

It's not necessarily important that Muslims accept it. It's just that if Human evolution is not compatible with Islam then one of the two must be false. So, basically science and religion are pitted against each other, which is dangerous.

[dhrishiasv]

Why is it important that Muslims accept evolution?

It isn't although it would help reverse the retardation of science we currently see in the Muslim world and thus help advance the world. And you're correct I'm not a Muslim and do you accept human evolution?

Anyway Socrates, if you don't want to debate the proofs for Islam and you don't want to debate the validity of the theory of evolution, what exactly are you trying to ask? Just whether the Muslim should accept the theory or whether he should accept what Islam says? Becasue the answer to that is very simple; he should accept what Islam says because that is what Muslims do, and to believe in human evolution is to disbelieve in Islam itself

My main question was regarding the rationality of Allahs reasoning but given how devout you guys are on here, I doubt you'd be willing to partake in kalam.

[ffflyer]

So you friend the biologist isn't important anymore?? You came here to troll.Don't try and hide your nonsense

[MasTaBlau]

My main question was regarding the rationality of Allahs reasoning but given how devout you guys are on here, I doubt you'd be willing to partake in kalam.

So basically you are trying to subject the Creator to your limited rationale?

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, as long as you prove Allah exists, then it doesn't matter why or why not He Wills something to be or why He does or does not Command a particular thing because heaven and hell does not depend upon it, neither do I think the human mind has sufficient capacity to understand the Will of the Creator.

[Usesdiums]

It isn't although it would help reverse the retardation of science we currently see in the Muslim world and thus help advance the world. And you're correct I'm not a Muslim and do you accept human evolution?

So you want Science to advance, why do you find that important?
What is the goal or purpose?

(Given sufficient and unrefutable evidence, I will.
Otherwise I would accuse God of systematically deceiving me, there's is no bigger blashempy)

[dhrishiasv]

So basically you are trying to subject the Creator to your limited rationale?

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, as long as you prove Allah exists, then it doesn't matter why or why not He Wills something to be or why He does or does not Command a particular thing because heaven and hell does not depend upon it, neither do I think the human mind has sufficient capacity to understand the Will of the Creator.

Nope. If you can't explain, I won't take it to mean that there's no explanation. Just seeing if anyone can explain.

So you want Science to advance, why do you find that important?
What is the goal or purpose?

(Given sufficient and unrefutable evidence, I will.
Otherwise I would accuse God of systematically deceiving me, there's is no bigger blashempy)

What goal or purpose? I don't really believe there's any given purpose, after all all our accomplishments will be destroyed and not remembered. I guess I want science to advance because it makes life more enjoyable for me.

So, you don't accept evolution? Thought you said you did? And it really depends on your imam, if you have a very strong imam you probably won't accept it and try and create loopholes. As Bertrand Russell said:

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."

So you friend the biologist isn't important anymore?? You came here to troll.Don't try and hide your nonsense

I really can't understand what your problem is. You don't have to click on this thread if it's irritating you. If you read the thread, you'd realize he wasn't important to begin with.

[MasTaBlau]

If you want to see whether anyone can explain it, fine but I just wanted to point out that a lack of explanation does not lead to the conclusion that God does not exist at all (as some atheists say, with their faulty logic)

[dhrishiasv]

If you want to see whether anyone can explain it, fine but I just wanted to point out that a lack of explanation does not lead to the conclusion that God does not exist at all (as some atheists say, with their faulty logic)

I understand, atheist generally see the problem of evil as a valid argument against God when humans have limited knowledge and thus can't even comprehend the nature of Gods plan.

[ffflyer]

you're a troll.What reason have you come on this forum for.You've come up on this forum banging on about evolution and done nothing but tried to put down muslims.Why don't you take up the brothers invitation to debate the literary challenge of the Quran?

[dhrishiasv]

you're a troll.What reason have you come on this forum for.You've come up on this forum banging on about evolution and done nothing but tried to put down muslims.Why don't you take up the brothers invitation to debate the literary challenge of the Quran?

Lol, seriously dude what's your problem? How have I put Muslims down? I don't want to debate the literary challenge of the Quran because it would be a boring debate and I don't like to debate things I find boring.

[ffflyer]

I don't really care if you find it boring.you made a claim when you started this thread that the literary miracle was subjective.the brother challenged you.back your claim up.what are you on this forum for anyway?

[Usesdiums]

What goal or purpose? I don't really believe there's any given purpose, after all all our accomplishments will be destroyed and not remembered. I guess I want science to advance because it makes life more enjoyable for me.

So, you don't accept evolution? Thought you said you did? And it really depends on your imam, if you have a very strong imam you probably won't accept it and try and create loopholes. As Bertrand Russell said:

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."

In what way does science make your life more enjoyable?
Is it the knowledge or the technology? This of course does not count for everyone, do you understand?

I think you gave the answer what the general purpose of life is for most people.
It's happiness, we find that in different sources.

You've highlighted an interesting quote of Bertrand Russel, however it has nothing to do with this
topic. I've not rejected nor accepted evolution, it's merely a theory which is quite acceptable
in the world of science, a lot of other phenomenon are explained.
Notice also that science changes fast.
50 years ago, a great majority of physicists thought that the universe was eternal.

If I ever decide to study it and I find irrefutable evidence, I'll accept it.
This has nothing to do with my imaan.
I however understand that you are more interested in this.
In response to your quote of Bertrand Russel.


Qur'an - [52:35-36] - Did they come into being without any creator? Or were they their own creators? Or is it they who created the heavens and the earth? No; the truth is that they lack sure faith.


As for the problem of evil, it's not really an argument against God's existence.
surprisingly, it's an argument for God's existence, if you just look deeper into this concept.

Do you want God to exist Socrates?

[scewDeasp]

Disclaimer: this isn't a thread to discuss the validity of evolution.

(1) Lie. Later on, in this post itself you make arguments to validate evolution.
(2) You also betray your intention. You want to thrust evolution down our throats.
(3) You are responsible for your actions. We do not thrust Islam on any body. We'll not allow any body to inflict kufr on us.
(4) Muslims might not be the leaders of science in modern times but there are enough Muslim scientists to take on Socrates/Platos/Aristotles like you. Let us join the battlefield.


It's a scientific theory that's supported by over 95% of biologist.

Those 95 % were/are the products or successors of humanity reeling under inquisition and rack. They threw the baby (religion) with bath water.

Articles by Abdul Fattah, Nuh Ha Mim Keller or Harun Yahaha won't change the validity of it and most have been refuted.

Inconvenient truth should be brushed aside. Right? Get connected with reality.Man has been created in the best of the molds by Allah but if you want to fall then you are allowed by Him (Exalted is He) to reach the shoddiest depths. Start worrying about yourself. You are in extremely grave danger. Do not get carried away by the leave given to you by Lord Most High. He is merely giving you a long rope, very long one.

(thanks to Bilal Philips, don't think we're going to see him being used any more)

Have you seen how jinxed he looks? No signs of happiness on his face. Astaghfirullah. Worry about yourself, stay away from his mutterings.

Moving on.

Wish you had moved away. We do not enjoy sly attacks on our faith. Nor we take them very kindly.

There's a Muslim, his educated in science and his knowledge of the deen is average.

That is the problem. Before going to the information blasted by the people who have sinned against their souls by shamelessly adopting disbelief one should have solid grounding in Deen.

He studies biology and realizes that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming ...
It is not. It is just presentation.
... and doesn't find most refutations satisfactory and finds them weak.
Telling a lie again here. No refutation of evolution is taught. The so called scientific objectivity is no where observed in this matter.

What should he do?
Nonsensical question. In the examination they are not asking is opinion. They are asking for their opinion which he should have no problem in reproducing. In real life he should get connected with reality. As should you.

A) Take the opinion of scholars who aren't knowledge of science (or weren't around at the time of Darwin's revelation) but very knowledgeable of the deen.
As said above. There are enough scientists among Muslims by now. There are many Christian scientists, now and earlier, who did not buzz at all. The American society, the citadel of Darwinism, is slowly demolishing this air castle.

or
Will you stop beating your wife OR continue with it?

B) Try and merge the two like many modernist have done today.
Merging science and Deen? This does not serve your purpose.
If A,
Why are you so smug that we are gone with you? You, sooner or later, will start ignoring my arguments. So do not assume that I am serving you. I seek forgiveness of My Lord if I have given any such impression to you. I am just serving my brothers and sisters whom you have been subjecting to atrocities. And if you benefit from my arguments then I shall take it as a Grace from Lord Almighty. He is Most Merciful, Most Benevolent.
does that mean a non-Muslim (who are aware of Islam) won't necessarily go to hell for disbelieving?
I hope you know the conventional answer to this insinuation. The people in your company are pleased with their own arguments. This is called ujb (vanity). It is a serious ailment of soul. If you ever come to realize your mistake then this is what you should try to mend first.


It seems to me that science and Islam conflict
You are confused. Please do not try to spread it here. Islam is the way of life, the Deen, preferred ny Allah (SWT) for us. Science is the study of the things created by Him. Two can not be in conflict. You are trying to impose a lie on Allah (SWT). You are committing the biggest mistake and atrocity.

and science plays a large role in the lives of non-Muslims,
And they have got carried away and you are confused as to follow them or not. If you have decided to destroy yourself then think again. You are the most foolish person. In any case try not to take down others with you. They have all the right to protect themselves.
I can't understand why Allah would then still expect non-Muslims to come to Islam?
The word still has been made redundant. Answer to the rest of the question is that because He loves His creation.
Science is the study of the universe. Allah is supposed to leave signs yet science comes to conclusions such as evolution based on numerous evidence.
Indeed you are confused. The whole purpose of the theory of evolution is to conclude that there is no creator-may Allah forgive such utterances. Why would He leave such signs that will point out to revolution? Unless, of course, you are bent upon drawing the wrong conclusion.
Would you join a religion which conflicts with science?
We are already Muslims, and it does not conflict science.
Probably not, you dismiss that religion as false. Surely Allah then can sympathise with non-Muslims?

PS, don't tell me about the science in the Qu'ran or literary miracle of the Qu'ran because the former is ambiguous and a case of people twisting words to fit a agenda and the latter is subjective.
Did I do that?
Please just answer the question above and nothing else.
Where do you think you are, in Mumma's kitchen? Reply only if you want to repent before your Lord Most High.

[dhrishiasv]

In what way does science make your life more enjoyable?
Is it the knowledge or the technology? This of course does not count for everyone, do you understand?

Yes, I realize that. And yes it's the knowledge and technology.

50 years ago, a great majority of physicists thought that the universe was eternal. I doubt that. Also, you do realize that the universe could still be eternal?


Qur'an - [52:35-36] - Did they come into being without any creator? Or were they their own creators? Or is it they who created the heavens and the earth? No; the truth is that they lack sure faith. The funny thing is, science has determined that it's entirely possible for the universe to exist without a creator.

As for the problem of evil, it's not really an argument against God's existence.
surprisingly, it's an argument for God's existence, if you just look deeper into this concept. What you mean because for the whole concept of objective morality to exist there needs to be God?

Do you want God to exist Socrates? I think I do.

@Maripat science and Islam do conflict.

P1: Evolution is apart of science. It's a scientific theory.
P2: Islam disagrees with evolution and doesn't believe humans evolved.
C: Therefore, Islam and science conflict.

[iodillalm]

@Maripat science and Islam do conflict.

P1: Evolution is apart of science. It's a scientific theory.
P2: Islam disagrees with evolution and doesn't believe humans evolved.
C: Therefore, Islam and science conflict.

Dear sir,

you are a disgrace to the person whose name you utilize in the forum.

Your thoughts are based on fallacious empiricism and the lunacy of modernism. You are not an independent thinker.

The contention that 'science has proven the universe can exist without a creator' is based entirely on the assertions of one Stephen Hawking, who is said to have 'proven' this via the latest in-vogue theory, which is called M-Theory. M-Theory is an extension of String Theory, which is a so-dubbed 'theory of everything' proposed by a physicist.

It is untestable and unverifiable. Stephen Hawking is logically equivalent to an Aztec priest, only instead of sacrificing people to the sun like a mushrik he sacrifices sensibility to a theory that is unverifiable based on a second theory that is unverifiable! You are actually saying "There is no god" based on something you read which was based on an unverifiable theory that was itself based on an unverifiable theory! This is the worst kind of absurd blind-following.

[Usesdiums]

Yes, I realize that. And yes it's the knowledge and technology.

So if it makes you happy, why should it make other people also happy?
We all find our happiness in different sources.
More over, what is the end goal of science? Is it human immortality?

Do you see that there is no purpose according to you?
Then we should rather focus our thoughts at attaining happiness, I think you'd agree.
If that's the only purpose that a secular society has, it has failed immensely.
While science has advanced quite particulary here in the west, people do not seem to be very happy.
Here in the Netherlands, over 1 million people take Prozac, according to a recent research, more
people actually are in need of it.

Is it money that makes people happy? I'd suggest not, nor does knowledge.
I believe true happiness comes from a different source, it's religion.

Man is a born believer, which antropology agrees on.
Also called al-fitrah within Islam, the innate belief in a Creator.
Why should we change that which is natural to man?

I doubt that. Also, you do realize that the universe could still be eternal?

I was refering to the Big Bang theory, that the universe we know had a beginning.

The funny thing is, science has determined that it's entirely possible for the universe to exist without a creator.

Can you explain?

What you mean because for the whole concept of objective morality to exist there needs to be God?

No it's simply the problem of evil. I can give an elaborate reply of this, if you wish.
Only if you are sincere in your search. (Problem of evil makes more sense with God, then without God)

I think I do.

Then stay here, at the very least we can make you doubt.

[scewDeasp]

@Maripat science and Islam do conflict.

P1: Evolution is apart of science. It's a scientific theory.
P2: Islam disagrees with evolution and doesn't believe humans evolved.
C: Therefore, Islam and science conflict.

(1) We disagree with proposition P1.
(2) What are you doing here?

[dhrishiasv]

(1) We disagree with proposition P1.

Then, you make Muslims look very ridiculous, in my opinion. Look up the definition of scientific theory and look up evolution because evolution is a scientific theory. Here is a good site:

talkorigins .org /faqs/comdesc/sciproof .html

connect the words.

(2) What are you doing here? I am here because I want to be here. This is a public forum. I haven't violated any rules.

[dhrishiasv]

Dear sir,

you are a disgrace to the person whose name you utilize in the forum.

Your thoughts are based on fallacious empiricism and the lunacy of modernism. You are not an independent thinker.

The contention that 'science has proven the universe can exist without a creator' is based entirely on the assertions of one Stephen Hawking, who is said to have 'proven' this via the latest in-vogue theory, which is called M-Theory. M-Theory is an extension of String Theory, which is a so-dubbed 'theory of everything' proposed by a physicist.

It is untestable and unverifiable. Stephen Hawking is logically equivalent to an Aztec priest, only instead of sacrificing people to the sun like a mushrik he sacrifices sensibility to a theory that is unverifiable based on a second theory that is unverifiable! You are actually saying "There is no god" based on something you read which was based on an unverifiable theory that was itself based on an unverifiable theory! This is the worst kind of absurd blind-following.

No, it isn't. I wasn't even referring to Hawking's theory. Also, I think you would find that the string theory is falsifiable and thus fulfils popper's criteria of a scientific theory same with evolution (popper changed his mind regarding evolution and it's falsifiability). And how does this have anything to do with the part you quoted?

[irrascaft]

As far as I understand, evolution is the genetic change in a species through time. The only way to prove genetic change is through DNA, however, we do not possess DNA since the inception of life began on Earth. What evidence has been used to establish the validity of this position?

Maybe socrates can answer. As per the Argument from Definition, historical evolution has no basis so how can you say that it is a fact and contradicts the Qu'ran?