[ligeplodore]

The bad thing is that when these parents decide not to vaccinate their kids they endanger many other children. Not all people are receptive to vaccinations, and instead must rely on "herd immunity." This basically means that since no one around them has it, they are protected by the immunity of others. Lots of pseudoscience floating around that says vaccination is bad, autism, etc.... and its all just absurd and has been debunked.

Its unfortunate when children must pay for the stupidity of their parents, or even worse the stupidity of other parents.

[Kamendoriks]

:Repost:

POLIO:

Lets discuss about a single communicable disease for simplicity sake. Polio.


In pre-vaccination era, polio was found in all countries of the world. The extensive use of polio vaccines since 1954 eliminated the disease in developed countries. . Implementation of eradication strategies has reduced the number of polio endemic countries from more than 125 in 1988 to 4 in Nov, 2006. These countries are India, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria. Ten other countries have reported cases of imported virus.
[Pg No.166, Park's Textbook of Social and Preventive Medicine 19th Edition]
Well 125 countries with polio reduced to 4 countries with the introduction of Polio vaccine. Well if we are talking about numbers that was saved by a Polio vaccination, it will be Billions.


Edit:
I wanted to add a point about the 'numbers' that have side effects from polio vaccination. OPV (oral polio vaccination) is the vaccination recommending by WHO. Lets see what is the 'numbers' that have complications.

OPV is remarkably free from complications.
The WHO has estimated the risk of vaccine-associated paralysis to be about 1 case per million vaccinees, and the risk of a close contact of a vaccinee devoloping paralytic polio, about 1 case per 5 million doses of vaccine.
[Pg No.170, Park's Textbook of Social and Preventive Medicine 19th Edition]

Bottomline:
There is a 1 in a million chances of a side effect from vaccination. But not being vaccinated has multiple times the risk of getting the disease. Eradication polio from All the countries in the world except 4 is itself proof of its benefit.

The Prophet has adviced us : "Make use of medical treatment, for Allah has not made a disease without appointing a remedy for it, with the exception of one disease, namely old age." Sunan Abu-Dawud. 3846 . But its your personal choice to vaccinate or not.

May Allah save us all from disease. Ameen.

[Adwetyren]

i am asking simple questions not to debate or argue but because i genuinely would like to know the facts.

can we start off by exploring the following questions please.

i would rather discuss facts and not conjecture.

from those who have not been vaccinated, how many catch illnesses that could have been prevented by vaccinations?

from those who have been vaccinated, how many fall ill as a consequence of the vaccination?

if there are any links to any websites that you may know of then please post them.

[Kamendoriks]

i am asking simple questions not to debate or argue but because i genuinely would like to know the facts.

can we start off by exploring the following questions please.

I am not here to argue either bro. Just wanted to present the facts. Sorry if i was a bit direct. Its your choice to vaccinate or not.

I ve mentioned both Advantages and Disadvantages of vaccinations with facts in the previous post.

[ligeplodore]

Yes, its mainly because of the ingredients in the vaccine:
http://westwoodchiropractor.com/images/vaccine.jpg

I think some Ulama in South Africa came out with some literature on it

Completely not true. The main protagonist behind all this **** recently admitted making falsifying his research, but all the crazy internet moms don't need professional medical advice... they just need a few crazy websites that tell them what they want to hear. Do yourself a favor and find a doctor you trust and then take his advice. Unless you feel like going to medical school, you simply do not understand the subject matter enough to make these life or death decisions.

I say that in the nicest way possible, it would be like me looking online at a few hadith and considering myself better able to formulate opinions than a scholar with 8 years worth of education. It doesn't make sense.

[lalpphilalk]

The problem is I just don't trust what is in the vaccinations; it just feels wrong that as soon as something so pure comes into this world, we are immediately pumping it full of chemicals. Also the way these vaccinations are pushed on children alarms me; it almost makes you feel that you have no choice. Terms like, 'you are doing a great injustice to your child, how could you be so selfish?' 'you are denying your child a healthy life'...this does not help!

For the record the only one I accepted for my little one was TB but rejected all the rest; and even that was because I am of Indian ethnicity and always have family coming and going. I also hope that I will take the little one to India soon insha Allah.

I was vaccinated and alhamdulilah my health has been good and I have travelled extensively. My in-laws are all white and between the siblings there's six of them, none of them have ever had a vaccination and masha Allah very healthy and no problems. They have only been abroad to the middle east once or twice.

I'm not against vaccinations and I don't necessarily advise others against it, it's just that for some reason it really doesn't sit right with me. Maybe a more balanced approach needs to be taken I don't know, Allahu alam.

I know this hasn't really helped and isolated examples don't really prove anything but I thought I would give my two pence.

[Pa33anger]

I've heard of being back ward but this is something else. Why would you want your kid 2 suffer whilst growing up by jot vaccinating when due. It's a joke. Some people on here are worse than luddites

[Kamendoriks]

I will answer your queries with the available survey data of WHO.

from those who have not been vaccinated, how many catch illnesses that could have been prevented by vaccinations?

From the already mentioned information, I will answer this question.
The number of people were too large that it was easier to count the number of Countries that were endemic with Polio. in 1988 this number was 125 Countries. With the introduction of Polio vaccination the number has been decreased to 4 Countries by 2006


from those who have been vaccinated, how many fall ill as a consequence of the vaccination?

As per WHO survey, 1 in 1,000,000 children who received vaccination has suffered from side-effects.

[Kamendoriks]

The problem is I just don't trust what is in the vaccinations; it just feels wrong that as soon as something so pure comes into this world, we are immediately pumping it full of chemicals.

brother,

The Prophet has adviced us : "Make use of medical treatment, for Allah has not made a disease without appointing a remedy for it, with the exception of one disease, namely old age." Sunan Abu-Dawud. 3846 .

I hope that will change your mind and make you use medical treatment.

[Adwetyren]

never looked into the history of polio before but it is becoming some what of an eye opener.

Major polio epidemics were unknown before the 20th century; localized paralytic polio epidemics began to appear in Europe and the United States around 1900.
Trevelyan B, Smallman-Raynor M, Cliff A (2005). "The Spatial Dynamics of Poliomyelitis in the United States: From Epidemic Emergence to Vaccine-Induced Retreat, 1910-1971".

before this it seems that polio was not that much of a problem.


Poliomyelitis, often called polio or infantile paralysis, is an acute viral infectious disease spread from person to person, primarily via the fecal-oral route.
Cohen JI (2004). "Chapter 175: Enteroviruses and Reoviruses".

personal hygiene has got better post 19th century so shouldnt polio have been more problematic before the 19th century? but it seems that the exact opposite is the truth. why do you think that would be?

[Kamendoriks]

personal hygiene has got better post 19th century so shouldnt polio have been more problematic before the 19th century? but it seems that the exact opposite is the truth. why do you think that would be?

Thats a good point you noticed. I think Allah is testing mankind with newer diseases. Just think of AIDS, even if modern science is at its peak, no definitive medicine to cure it have been found. The AIDS virus Rna mutates in a way that the current available medicines will be effective only for a few months. Even if they find a cure for this, Only Allah knows what all new disease that will start. Allahu alam.

[lalpphilalk]

brother,

The Prophet has adviced us : "Make use of medical treatment, for Allah has not made a disease without appointing a remedy for it, with the exception of one disease, namely old age." Sunan Abu-Dawud. 3846 .

I hope that will change your mind and make you use medical treatment.

for reminding me off this hadith my brother, however in order to act on this doesn't mean I accept every medication which comes along. If I morally am not comfortable with a medication then I will exercise caution just as I do with food.

In the example of Polio the brother cited and the statistics quoted from the WHO; I agree that during that time when the disease was so prevalent it would make sense to take the vaccination. The alternative would be to stand a good and very real chance of catching Polio.
However, in my opinion (which really doesn't matter) the need for taking this vaccination now is not as great due to it almost being eradicated from society.

I am no expert in the field of medicine and I am at the mercy of those that know better, or who say they know better. Therefore anything myself or my family take has to be balanced and the actions need to be proportionate. In the case of vaccination's this is often a perceived risk and so sometimes I cannot justify taking it.
It may be worth noting that there have been grave concerns in the past associated with the MMR vaccine.

One of the best ways to safeguarding our young against heart disease, cancers, diabetes, allergies and many many other illnesses is to breast feed them,
Yet in England we have the lowest rates of breast feeding mothers than in anywhere else in Europe.

Disclaimer; In case I am misunderstood, I am not suggesting we reject vaccinations and just breast feed our young.

[ligeplodore]

Breast feeding reduces cancer, heart disease, and diabetes?

How? It just passes along passive immunity doesn't it?

[Kamendoriks]

Definitely modern medicines have side-effects. But they are smaller compared to the good they bring about. But unwanted prescribing of medicines is also not good. Basically one has to follow the middle path. Find a Doctor you can trust and follow his advice.

[lalpphilalk]

Breast feeding reduces cancer, heart disease, and diabetes?

How? It just passes along passive immunity doesn't it?

There's stacks and stacks of studies and ressearch in it and some excellent books if you are interested about the physiology side. There are even cancer patients who now have started consuming breast milk as a medication since they were deprived of it in their infanthood....crazy I know!

edit; some of the benefits I mentioned apply not only to the infant but also to the mother as well.

[Kamendoriks]

Breast feeding reduces cancer, heart disease, and diabetes?

How? It just passes along passive immunity doesn't it?

Some Medical journals do mention studies which found out that who were breast fed longer had lesser incedents of cancer, diabetes etc. But its not a completely confirmed fact.

[BalaGire]

My grandparents were never vaccinated. Alhamdolillah they did not have any side effects. In fact they all lived to a very old age and were mashallah very healthy in their middle age and beyond. I still have a grandmother in india who is very old but more healthier then a lot of people younger than her.

;salam:

The reasons why your grandparents (and mine) have done well without vaccinations could be many; they could have lived healthier loifetsyles (in terms of food and exercise), they may perhaps never have come into contact with the illnesses/diseases that vaccines are meant to fight away, etc. On this basis, you could never come to a conclusion that people without vaccines would live a healthier lifestyle because there is more than one factor to take into consideration. The best thing is to test in controlled conditions

[ycMC0PLg]

Not all people are receptive to vaccinations, and instead must rely on "herd immunity."

This is true, but I don't know what the prevalence is in the general population. I think most people don't even realize this at all. Someone could get a vaccine and not be vaccinated at all.

[Nabeqiv]

I have gone through the various literature regarding child vaccination and decided not to vaccinate any of my children. Alhamdulillah, they are healthier than children who have got vaccination. Does anyone have any literature on this subject?

I would suggest that you do not read "various literature" regarding anything that involves the health and future of your children. Apply the same principles in acquiring this knowledge, as you would with anything precious. You wouldn't read "various literature" when it comes time to invest your life savings. You wouldn't read "various literature" when it comes time to learn about your deen. You wouldn't read "various literature" when it comes time to defend yourself in court when facing a serious charge. Similarly, don't read "various literature" in this matter either. If you are a medical expert, then evaluate the studies yourself. If you are not, then listen to what the consensus of medical experts have to say in this regard. As long as it is not contradictory with Islam, we are encouraged to adopt expert opinion. Those who refuse to immunize their children, are not only putting them at risk, but increase the risk to the entire society of getting the disease. While there is no way to predict if your child will or will not contract that specific disease, it is established that by immunizing every child the overall occurrence of the disease decreases immensely. Thus getting immunized is not only a personal protection, but (even more importantly!) aids in protecting the entire society.

i also did not vaccinate my children. alhamdlillah they are also more healthy than most other children.

That is not proof of anything. Perhaps you also know of some very old uncles who smoked hookah their entire lives, and are in much better health that does who never touched tobacco. Does that mean anything? When it comes to the health issues (... and nearly anything really), it is statistics which lead one to solid conclusions.

The funny thing about statistics is that humans are generally pretty bad at thinking of things in a statistical manner. Our minds latch on to individual observations, stories, and outcomes which coincide with our 'gut'. For example (no googling allowed!): Assume we have a room full of randomly selected people. At minimum, how many people should be in the room for there to be a 99% chance of two people having the same birthday? Another one: 1 in 100,000 people have a disease, and we have an awesome test which is 99.9% accurate in detecting whether someone has the disease. How likely is it that you have the disease if you test positive?

my doctor also tried his best to make me vaccinate my kids.

Perhaps he was just looking out for the health and well being of his own kids, his neighbors kids, and the kids in his kid's school - when (Allaah forbid!) your kids possibly get sick in the future and an infection exponentially spreads. He deserves some slack, don't blame him dude

vaccination messes with a persons immune system right? if thats teh case then why would you want to do that when a childs immune system is still developing. let it develope naturally like Allah created it to.

Here's an interesting observation: You're not even sure about what a vaccine does, and you're willing to reject expert consensus on the matter? ... And then go on to use the "why mess with Allaah's creation" argument. You do know the outlandish extents to which that one can be used, right?






Answers: 53, 1%

[Nabeqiv]

;salam:
The best thing is to test in controlled conditions

No! Brother! Controlled tests!?!?!?! Why manipulate a single variable at a time when you can manipulate five at a time, more is better!?!?! Double blinded trials!?!?!? Large sample sizes which exclude outliers and show to the true statistical trend!?!?!? Data!?!?! Measurable, testable, and falsifiable hypothesis!?!?!? Nooooo!?!?! A person could become an atheist if he or she makes judgement calls based on evidence, data, and unbiased procedures. It's much more pleasing to the gut to listen to what XYZ person with a PhD in natural-homely-whole-body-soul-massaging-cure-the-earth-and-solution-to-world-peace-medical-remedies-sciences said.