[LookSe]

What about the hadith that says (paraphrased) "du'a is the only that can change qadr". I suppose tawajjuh is essentially a du'a..

So if someone was messing up, and through Grace of Allah found himself in the suhbah of a Shaykh, then the du'as of the Shaykh changed the direction of his life.

What's wrong with that? I think most people that have taken tasawwuf seriously will find enormous changes in their life after working hard under guidance of a Shaykh.

Yes I know you can say "Shaykh was only a means of him attaining what he was destined for" but in the end I think we should attribute any such perceived khayr Allah has given us to the effort and duas of one's Shaykh

[MaraReenece]

No he is very kind, he will only give, our uncle Chathe... he will not take
Any other reasons why someone might take away anothers nisbat?

nisbat is another name for "Ta,luq ma,Allah", it is obviously a very pleasant feeling,which attracts towards more ibda,and therefore more strength in nisbat. In other words we can say that constant Ibadat & zikr produce some effects on Nafs & rooh which leads to more thirst of association with Allah swt,resulting in more efforts and so on. salbe nisbat ,therefore will mean somehow,clouding the pleasure associated with nisbat,but not nisbat itself,as no one can break the nisbat of haq & khalq.if the effects of salbe nisbat remains limited to this and salik continues to perform his ibadat, no harm done,but in most cases in the absence of Inshirah associated with nisbat, ibadaat slows down and a negative cycle sets in place ( Nauoozo billahe min Zalik),
But why would one do it ? Generally for the betterment !
a young person came in presence of Hazrath Mujaddad sarhindi ra whose zikre qalbi was so loudly heard when he would be asleep that people would gather around him.Hazrat Mujaddad ra noted that this phenomena is producing vanity in him and is taking him further away from Allah swt,so he "salb" his Zikre Qalbi,that person first became angry,then started crying and after a few days became depressed and subdued,now Hazrat Mujaddad asked for him and granted him much more than just loud Zikre Qalbi by Twajjo.The purpose was never tp punish him but to treat his vanity.
"Imdad ul mushtaq" narrates a story that in Haram sharif a chishty would always compare salasil with each other proving Chishtiya to be the best and all others just fake.A Naqshbandi Shaikh in Haram would always tell him in a very cool way that your love for Chishtiya is appreciated but down grading other Akabir is not, but as the Chishti would not listen,one day the Naqshbandi shaikh salb his nisbat.This was for punishment. ( The Rawi of this incident is Hazrat Haji Imdad ullah ra)
so the occassions can be different, but it is never without a valid reason,as all shyookh are fully aware of their responsibility to Allah swt.
Having said that, i agree with shaikh fusoos,that instead of discussing this rather rare phenomena, we should be discussing how to create nisbat.
Tou barae wasl kardan amadi
Ne barae fasl kardan amadi

You are to connect people to Allah,rather than to break them away from Allah.

[EbrsaRynleot]

nisbat is another name for "Ta,luq ma,Allah", it is obviously a very pleasant feeling,which attracts towards more ibda,and therefore more strength in nisbat. In other words we can say that constant Ibadat & zikr produce some effects on Nafs & rooh which leads to more thirst of association with Allah swt,resulting in more efforts and so on. salbe nisbat ,therefore will mean somehow,clouding the pleasure associated with nisbat,but not nisbat itself,as no one can break the nisbat of haq & khalq.if the effects of salbe nisbat remains limited to this and salik continues to perform his ibadat, no harm done,but in most cases in the absence of Inshirah associated with nisbat, ibadaat slows down and a negative cycle sets in place ( Nauoozo billahe min Zalik),
But why would one do it ? Generally for the betterment !
a young person came in presence of Hazrath Mujaddad sarhindi ra whose zikre qalbi was so loudly heard when he would be asleep that people would gather around him.Hazrat Mujaddad ra noted that this phenomena is producing vanity in him and is taking him further away from Allah swt,so he "salb" his Zikre Qalbi,that person first became angry,then started crying and after a few days became depressed and subdued,now Hazrat Mujaddad asked for him and granted him much more than just loud Zikre Qalbi by Twajjo.The purpose was never tp punish him but to treat his vanity.
"Imdad ul mushtaq" narrates a story that in Haram sharif a chishty would always compare salasil with each other proving Chishtiya to be the best and all others just fake.A Naqshbandi Shaikh in Haram would always tell him in a very cool way that your love for Chishtiya is appreciated but down grading other Akabir is not, but as the Chishti would not listen,one day the Naqshbandi shaikh salb his nisbat.This was for punishment. ( The Rawi of this incident is Hazrat Haji Imdad ullah ra)
so the occassions can be different, but it is never without a valid reason,as all shyookh are fully aware of their responsibility to Allah swt.
Having said that, i agree with shaikh fusoos,that instead of discussing this rather rare phenomena, we should be discussing how to create nisbat.
Tou barae wasl kardan amadi
Ne barae fasl kardan amadi

You are to connect people to Allah,rather than to break them away from Allah.

Masha'Allah good examples. Now the matter is clear in sight to the public why this is sometimes used. Your son does well through high school so you get him a car. He starts college and now suddenly he's using the car to hang out with the boys, to take out girls on dates, to do all sorts of stuff rather than use it for going to college and study. So what do you do? You take back the gift, you take back the car. Then you drop him off at college and pick him up immediately after class, make sure he is doing what he is supposed to do and staying away from what hes not supposed to be doing. You already know, from his performance in high school, that hes a good student, he can excel if he would focus on his work. Eventually if he keeps a good habit of this for a year or two, until he gains awareness of his responsibility and situation, matures up, then you may give it back to him. If he never matures up, keeps at his bad habit, then you dont return his car and rather give it to someone else by means of a gift or sell it.

[Heopretg2006]

nisbat is another name for "Ta,luq ma,Allah", it is obviously a very pleasant feeling,which attracts towards more ibda,and therefore more strength in nisbat. In other words we can say that constant Ibadat & zikr produce some effects on Nafs & rooh which leads to more thirst of association with Allah swt,resulting in more efforts and so on. salbe nisbat ,therefore will mean somehow,clouding the pleasure associated with nisbat,but not nisbat itself,as no one can break the nisbat of haq & khalq.if the effects of salbe nisbat remains limited to this and salik continues to perform his ibadat, no harm done,but in most cases in the absence of Inshirah associated with nisbat, ibadaat slows down and a negative cycle sets in place ( Nauoozo billahe min Zalik),
But why would one do it ? Generally for the betterment !
a young person came in presence of Hazrath Mujaddad sarhindi ra whose zikre qalbi was so loudly heard when he would be asleep that people would gather around him.Hazrat Mujaddad ra noted that this phenomena is producing vanity in him and is taking him further away from Allah swt,so he "salb" his Zikre Qalbi,that person first became angry,then started crying and after a few days became depressed and subdued,now Hazrat Mujaddad asked for him and granted him much more than just loud Zikre Qalbi by Twajjo.The purpose was never tp punish him but to treat his vanity.
"Imdad ul mushtaq" narrates a story that in Haram sharif a chishty would always compare salasil with each other proving Chishtiya to be the best and all others just fake.A Naqshbandi Shaikh in Haram would always tell him in a very cool way that your love for Chishtiya is appreciated but down grading other Akabir is not, but as the Chishti would not listen,one day the Naqshbandi shaikh salb his nisbat.This was for punishment. ( The Rawi of this incident is Hazrat Haji Imdad ullah ra)
so the occassions can be different, but it is never without a valid reason,as all shyookh are fully aware of their responsibility to Allah swt.
Having said that, i agree with shaikh fusoos,that instead of discussing this rather rare phenomena, we should be discussing how to create nisbat.
Tou barae wasl kardan amadi
Ne barae fasl kardan amadi

You are to connect people to Allah,rather than to break them away from Allah.

, I was exactly going to ask why would anyone make salb of someone else's nisbat and this message replied to my question..

[soyclocky]

nisbat is another name for "Ta,luq ma,Allah", it is obviously a very pleasant feeling,which attracts towards more ibda,and therefore more strength in nisbat. In other words we can say that constant Ibadat & zikr produce some effects on Nafs & rooh which leads to more thirst of association with Allah swt,resulting in more efforts and so on. salbe nisbat ,therefore will mean somehow,clouding the pleasure associated with nisbat,but not nisbat itself,as no one can break the nisbat of haq & khalq.if the effects of salbe nisbat remains limited to this and salik continues to perform his ibadat, no harm done,but in most cases in the absence of Inshirah associated with nisbat, ibadaat slows down and a negative cycle sets in place ( Nauoozo billahe min Zalik),
But why would one do it ? Generally for the betterment !
a young person came in presence of Hazrath Mujaddad sarhindi ra whose zikre qalbi was so loudly heard when he would be asleep that people would gather around him.Hazrat Mujaddad ra noted that this phenomena is producing vanity in him and is taking him further away from Allah swt,so he "salb" his Zikre Qalbi,that person first became angry,then started crying and after a few days became depressed and subdued,now Hazrat Mujaddad asked for him and granted him much more than just loud Zikre Qalbi by Twajjo.The purpose was never tp punish him but to treat his vanity.
"Imdad ul mushtaq" narrates a story that in Haram sharif a chishty would always compare salasil with each other proving Chishtiya to be the best and all others just fake.A Naqshbandi Shaikh in Haram would always tell him in a very cool way that your love for Chishtiya is appreciated but down grading other Akabir is not, but as the Chishti would not listen,one day the Naqshbandi shaikh salb his nisbat.This was for punishment. ( The Rawi of this incident is Hazrat Haji Imdad ullah ra)
so the occassions can be different, but it is never without a valid reason,as all shyookh are fully aware of their responsibility to Allah swt.
Having said that, i agree with shaikh fusoos,that instead of discussing this rather rare phenomena, we should be discussing how to create nisbat.
Tou barae wasl kardan amadi
Ne barae fasl kardan amadi

You are to connect people to Allah,rather than to break them away from Allah.

amazing. thank you for the detailed reply
so there is wisdom behind all actions of the Shuyookh
Allah save us from all the shar and give taufiq

[herrdwq]

OK,i got it,it is a type of snatching away something,but how do they do it ? Do they read some wazifa for it ? or through jinnat or some thing similar?

[EbrsaRynleot]

OK,i got it,it is a type of snatching away something,but how do they do it ? Do they read some wazifa for it ? or through jinnat or some thing similar?

No through tasarruf/tawajjo. Not jinnat man.

[herrdwq]

No through tasarruf/tawajjo. Not jinnat man.

Tawajjo means concentration. You want to say they just think of it & it happens ? ajeeb !

[EbrsaRynleot]

Tawajjo means concentration. You want to say they just think of it & it happens ? ajeeb !

Dont you know, a qalandar first observes then speaks.

Yes, what do you think shuyookh carry around a laser beam or something they shoot at people and make salb? Power of thought is a great blessing from Allah swt man. Inside of man there are many powers Allah swt has hidden, just as He has hidden jewels and diamonds, gold, beneath dirt. You have to clear out the dirt to uncover the riches.

[herrdwq]

Dont you know, a qalandar first observes then speaks.

Yes, what do you think shuyookh carry around a laser beam or something they shoot at people and make salb? Power of thought is a great blessing from Allah swt man. Inside of man there are many powers Allah swt has hidden, just as He has hidden jewels and diamonds, gold, beneath dirt. You have to clear out the dirt to uncover the riches.

I am sorry Shaikh,It is not my fault that my name is qalandar. i am no qalandar, and i have no knowledge and very little understanding. I am extremely sorry if i offended you. I just did not know any such powers exist.But still, it is ajeeb, is it not ?

[EbrsaRynleot]

I am sorry Shaikh,It is not my fault that my name is qalandar. i am no qalandar, and i have no knowledge and very little understanding. I am extremely sorry if i offended you. I just did not know any such powers exist.But still, it is ajeeb, is it not ?

Arrey Qalandar bhai become easy and relax. I wasnt being serious, I was just joking with the laser beam thing. But its a saying, and its a fact, that a Qalandar first observes phenomenon and then speaks, thats why Qalandars words are usually dead on target.

Arrey Qalandar, the power of thought Allah swt has given is a tremendous power, you can incinerate veils with it, you can travel tremendous distances without any means, to take hearts is no problem. This power of thought is an amazing power. You can think of any possibility and make it happen. So why dont you think like this, "I want to be a real Qalandar." Insha'Allah in just moments you can become a real Qalandar.

[herrdwq]

Arrey Qalandar bhai become easy and relax. I wasnt being serious, I was just joking with the laser beam thing. But its a saying, and its a fact, that a Qalandar first observes phenomenon and then speaks, thats why Qalandars words are usually dead on target.

Arrey Qalandar, the power of thought Allah swt has given is a tremendous power, you can incinerate veils with it, you can travel tremendous distances without any means, to take hearts is no problem. This power of thought is an amazing power. You can think of any possibility and make it happen. So why dont you think like this, "I want to be a real Qalandar." Insha'Allah in just moments you can become a real Qalandar.

JazakAllah Shaikh, you are a very kind person,may Allah give you long life with afiat , health, prosperity and temendous success in dunya & akhera..Me & real qalandar ? You must be joking sir, some people are meant to be low grade, i am one of them.
Anyway,thanks for your kindness, i am obliged.
But shaikh, about jinnat, i was serious. Shaikhl Islam Ibne taymia ra has written a whole book on the subject, explaing most of the karamat of awlia on his theory of " Makhdoomiyyat", I am going to pray salat, then i may write some more details about it.

[evalayCap]

"Imdad ul mushtaq" narrates a story that in Haram sharif a chishty would always compare salasil with

Do you mean this book as shown in this link ?

http://www.islamicbookcenter.org/ind...roduct_id=1562

Is there any English translation of this book ?

[herrdwq]

Arrey Qalandar bhai become easy and relax. I wasnt being serious, I was just joking with the laser beam thing. But its a saying, and its a fact, that a Qalandar first observes phenomenon and then speaks, thats why Qalandars words are usually dead on target.

Arrey Qalandar, the power of thought Allah swt has given is a tremendous power, you can incinerate veils with it, you can travel tremendous distances without any means, to take hearts is no problem. This power of thought is an amazing power. You can think of any possibility and make it happen. So why dont you think like this, "I want to be a real Qalandar." Insha'Allah in just moments you can become a real Qalandar.

Moulana manazir Ahsan gilani writes in one of his books,with reference to "Al nabawat" by Hazrat shaikh ul Islam Ibne taymia. He says that Makhdoomiyyat in This context means to be a Master of jins.Hazrat Shaikh ul Islam writes Jins can take his masters flying in the air, take them into closed spaces, can take them in front of influential people ,like ministers,where otherwise he has no reach.
He uses this theory to explain the phenomena where a Shaikh is seen in Arafat during Hajj,while he is not gone for Hajj.And Jins take such persons to Arafat,in a way he himself is not aware of, and then take him back to his home town..........."standing in Arafat, with out Ehram,on the day of Hajj,without fullfilling other manasik of Hajj.........Similarly this jinni takes his master to Makkah ,flying over meeqat, with out Ehram (which is wajib according to some scholars)
It is common in some places that mureed in distress calls his shaikh for help,from a distance,and listens to his shaikh,s voice in response.In this case the jinni conveys this sound to Shaikh in the voice of mureed, and similarly the Shaikh,s response is transferred back to mureed,in the voice of shaikh.
Another Phenomena is described as this :Sometimes it happens that when some people are eating, jinni comes in the make up of Shaikh and start eating with them,Putting mureeds under impression that Shaikh has such a long hand that it extends from Egypt to Syria ( Shaikh being in egypt and mureeds eating meal in syria)
He Even explains the phenomena of Khizr on this theorySimilar are the stories that people meet Khizr,while actually it is a jinni they meet".

So Shaikh when i mentioned jinnat in cases of salb, there was a reason for it,NOW I STAND CORRECTED,
thanks to you.And sorry for derailing the thread,please continue with the topic of salb e nisbat.

[sjdflghd]

Moulana manazir Ahsan gilani writes in one of his books,with reference to "Al nabawat" by Hazrat shaikh ul Islam Ibne taymia. He says that Makhdoomiyyat in This context means to be a Master of jins.Hazrat Shaikh ul Islam writes Jins can take his masters flying in the air, take them into closed spaces, can take them in front of influential people ,like ministers,where otherwise he has no reach.
He uses this theory to explain the phenomena where a Shaikh is seen in Arafat during Hajj,while he is not gone for Hajj.And Jins take such persons to Arafat,in a way he himself is not aware of, and then take him back to his home town..........."standing in Arafat, with out Ehram,on the day of Hajj,without fullfilling other manasik of Hajj.........Similarly this jinni takes his master to Makkah ,flying over meeqat, with out Ehram (which is wajib according to some scholars)
It is common in some places that mureed in distress calls his shaikh for help,from a distance,and listens to his shaikh,s voice in response.In this case the jinni conveys this sound to Shaikh in the voice of mureed, and similarly the Shaikh,s response is transferred back to mureed,in the voice of shaikh.
Another Phenomena is described as this :Sometimes it happens that when some people are eating, jinni comes in the make up of Shaikh and start eating with them,Putting mureeds under impression that Shaikh has such a long hand that it extends from Egypt to Syria ( Shaikh being in egypt and mureeds eating meal in syria)
He Even explains the phenomena of Khizr on this theorySimilar are the stories that people meet Khizr,while actually it is a jinni they meet".

So Shaikh when i mentioned jinnat in cases of salb, there was a reason for it,NOW I STAND CORRECTED,
thanks to you.And sorry for derailing the thread,please continue with the topic of salb e nisbat.

hazrat the easiest way to become a makhdum is to become a khadim.. as told to me by a khalifa of Hazrat maulana Shah Wasiulah sb (rah) ..its true tht khidmat se khuda milta hai..

jinnat can transport ppl but to take the form of a shaikh e kamil.. they wouldnt dare do tht.. theyre way too scared of ahlulllah and r constantly in thier service..
masha Allah.. salb e nisbat is rightly explained by shaikh fusoos and shaikh my faith..

wa assalam..

[Heopretg2006]

Shaikhl Islam Ibne taymia ra has written a whole book on the subject, explaing most of the karamat of awlia on his theory of " Makhdoomiyyat", I am going to pray salat, then i may write some more details about it.

Uhm, so according to what you posted in the next post, wouldn't this mean that most/many of the karamat in reality aren't really such, or was this just to explain the means through which some of the karamat happen?

I mean, Hafiz Ibn Tayimiyyah wrote this in order to show the "deception" of those which we shall call "awliya' as-Shaytan" and debunk them showing that in reality it's just about Jinn, or rather wrote this to explain the way, the means, the asbab through wich some Karamat (which are really such, karamat of awliya') take place?

I don't understand it that's a critic/debunking or just an explaination..

Sorry for interrupting the talk of giants, I would just like to take advantage of your presence here and understand better.

[herrdwq]

Uhm, so according to what you posted in the next post, wouldn't this mean that most/many of the karamat in reality aren't really such, or was this just to explain the means through which some of the karamat happen?

I mean, Hafiz Ibn Tayimiyyah wrote this in order to show the "deception" of those which we shall call "awliya' as-Shaytan" and debunk them showing that in reality it's just about Jinn, or rather wrote this to explain the way, the means, the asbab through wich some Karamat (which are really such, karamat of awliya') take place?

I don't understand it that's a critic/debunking or just an explaination..

Sorry for interrupting the talk of giants, I would just like to take advantage of your presence here and understand better.

You are welcome umar,i was just explaining my position to shaikh Fusoos as my status being a qalandar was under threat So i thought i should take refuge behind Hazrat Shaikh ul Islam RA.
Yes, you are right,shaikh is mostly writing about those who are not real Awlia,but generally Hazrat Shaikh ul islam ra is not considered too sympathetic towards sufia either,so
his targets might be a bit wider than just fake sufi,s.wallaho alam.
One thing i know, Hazrat Shaikh ul Islam was respectful to shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani ra,and has even acknowledged his Karamat.It means he did not include The real awlia under this catagery
And Umar, Ahle sunnat have consensus that " Karamat of Awlia are Haq"The reason being Karamat is not from wali, it is from Allah swt to honour his wali.(as word karamat itself means:an honour),so we don,t need to find asbab behind it,because it is produced by musabbab ul asbab.
you are not coming between two giants, but a giant (shaikh fusoos) and a qalandar rabbit.
Rabbit welcomes you,save yourself from the giant.

[herrdwq]

hazrat the easiest way to become a makhdum is to become a khadim.. as told to me by a khalifa of Hazrat maulana Shah Wasiulah sb (rah) ..its true tht khidmat se khuda milta hai..

jinnat can transport ppl but to take the form of a shaikh e kamil.. they wouldnt dare do tht.. theyre way too scared of ahlulllah and r constantly in thier service..
masha Allah.. salb e nisbat is rightly explained by shaikh fusoos and shaikh my faith..

wa assalam..

Shaikh Fusoos is OK,but since when has "my faith" become a Shaikh ? It is a news for me.
Brother dr sb,what do you know about him ? Whisper in my ears !

[Heopretg2006]

Yes, you are right,shaikh is mostly writing about those who are not real Awlia,but generally Hazrat Shaikh ul islam ra is not considered too sympathetic towards sufia either,so
his targets might be a bit wider than just fake sufi,s.wallaho alam.
One thing i know, Hazrat Shaikh ul Islam was respectful to shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani ra,and has even acknowledged his Karamat.

I have heard from reliable sources that not only he was in the Qadiri Tariqah himself, but that he was even a Shaykh in the silsila, I think it was Shaykh Ibn Qayyim to give the silsila showing in it Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah as his own Shaykh.

And Umar, Ahle sunnat have consensus that " Karamat of Awlia are Haq"The reason being Karamat is not from wali, it is from Allah swt to honour his wali.(as word karamat itself means:an honour),so we don,t need to find asbab behind it,because it is produced by musabbab ul asbab.

Right, I had forgotten this point!

[uC4F0NVL]

You are welcome umar,i was just explaining my position to shaikh Fusoos as my status being a qalandar was under threat .

Duma dum mast Qalander!