[dafodilkemmy]

please do not turn this into a jihad/tabligh slanging match.

i just want to understand why there is this type of culture amongst some tablighi sathis. where does this come from? do they have some sort of justification or some reason for this? are they wrong in this or are they right in this? do you think that i am wrong in thinking that they have this anti-jihad culture?

i am asking these questions so i can understand, clear up my own doubts, realise if i am in the wrong etc. so i respectfully ask brothers who are not involved in the effort of tabligh or who do not have any experience of it to withold their opinions for now. i also respectfully ask brothers who wish to argue against the points made by tablighi brothers to withold their opinions for now. ofcourse those who i have respectfully asked to exclude themselves from this thread may start another thread if they wish to debate some of the points made in this thread.

i joined a jamaat on friday morning and returned back home late after isha on sunday. alhamdolillah the jamaat was very good and i learnt a lot and it gave my iman a boost as i had expected especially since i choose the jamaat carefully to be with some brothers who i had spent time with before. for me the highlight of the jamaat was when a new brother called colin was introduced to the jamaat and spent a couple of hours with us. as he was leaving he was on the brink of tears and was very anxious for us to come and see him again. but the downside was when 2 senior members made anti-jihad comments which were not even solicited. with one of them i pointed out the jihadi stance of Mufti Rasheed Ahmed and Moulana Yusuf Ludhianvi Shaheed (ra) as he was only seconds before very fondly quoting from their kitaabs. with the other brother i decided to remain quiet as there were other people present and i could see that it would have created problems.

in the same way it would be difficult for me to remain quiet if an outsider was to criticise tabligh jamaat in an unjustified hostile manner, it is also difficult for me to remain quiet when the effort of jihad is attacked in this way too as i love both efforts very much. for this reason i am finding it difficult to wholeheartedly commit to tabligh jamaat and therefore looking for answers.

[Cuccuccaltefe]

According to my observations there exists an anti-jihad culture in the whole of the Ummah, and not only Tabligh Jama'ah. So, you'll find them in TJ just as anywhere else. I think many Muslims have a warped understanding of what Jihad means due to (1) propaganda of Kuffar and (2) mischief done in the name of Jihad. They think Jihad simply means "slaughtering Kuffar", "kidnapping innocents" and "showing no mercy", but if you allude them to the jihadi stories compiled by Shaykh al-Hadith Mawlana Zakariyya in Hikaayatus Sahabah or Hadhrat-ji Mawlana Yusuf's explicit use of the word "Jihad" in chapters for Hayatus Sahabah they'll claim that this is something totally different.

These are just my general observations as I don't know which comments they actually made and how they replied to your advice. But at the same time I've witnessed myself Tablighi (elders) going to great lengths in defending Mujahideen. But the usual bickering and quarreling between both camps makes the gap just larger.

[SiM7W2zi]

please do not turn this into a jihad/tabligh slanging match.

i just want to understand why there is this type of culture amongst some tablighi sathis. where does this come from? do they have some sort of justification or some reason for this? are they wrong in this or are they right in this? do you think that i am wrong in thinking that they have this anti-jihad culture?

i am asking these questions so i can understand, clear up my own doubts, realise if i am in the wrong etc. so i respectfully ask brothers who are not involved in the effort of tabligh or who do not have any experience of it to withold their opinions for now. i also respectfully ask brothers who wish to argue against the points made by tablighi brothers to withold their opinions for now. ofcourse those who i have respectfully asked to exclude themselves from this thread may start another thread if they wish to debate some of the points made in this thread.

i joined a jamaat on friday morning and returned back home late after isha on sunday. alhamdolillah the jamaat was very good and i learnt a lot and it gave my iman a boost as i had expected especially since i choose the jamaat carefully to be with some brothers who i had spent time with before. for me the highlight of the jamaat was when a new brother called colin was introduced to the jamaat and spent a couple of hours with us. as he was leaving he was on the brink of tears and was very anxious for us to come and see him again. but the downside was when 2 senior members made anti-jihad comments which were not even solicited. with one of them i pointed out the jihadi stance of Mufti Rasheed Ahmed and Moulana Yusuf Ludhianvi Shaheed (ra) as he was only seconds before very fondly quoting from their kitaabs. with the other brother i decided to remain quiet as there were other people present and i could see that it would have created problems.

in the same way it would be difficult for me to remain quiet if an outsider was to criticise tabligh jamaat in an unjustified hostile manner, it is also difficult for me to remain quiet when the effort of jihad is attacked in this way too as i love both efforts very much. for this reason i am finding it difficult to wholeheartedly commit to tabligh jamaat and therefore looking for answers.

1. An Average Tableeghi is discouraged from reading “other Islamic books”
2. Tableeghi Ulama discuss nothing but “Tableegh”
3. Average Tableeghees or their Ulama hardly ever organise Halaqahs of Fiqh or Tafseer. In fact some Ulama of Tableegh are praised to get "Tableegh" out of every single verse of the Qur'aan

So how are normal Tableeghees suppose to know anything better?

Many Sufees are exactly the same way. They can quote you the Karamaat of “Juanid Baghdadi (RA)” in vivid details but don’t much about the Fiqh or History of Sahabah (RA). In fact they know more about Karaamat of (Non-Sahabi) Auliya then they know about Karaamat of Sahabah (RA).

Shaykh (Maulana) Yusuf Kandhalwi (RA) wrote Hayatus-Sahabah because he felt that that the lives of “Non-Sahabi Auliya” was over-emphasised.

You have been in enough Majalis to know what gets mentioned and what gets discussed.

Compare the mention of Sahaba to every other story you have heard over the years and you will have your answer.

Similarly, some the Sufi Ulama are praised to get "Tassawuff" out of every single verse of the Qur'aan.

Years ago I asked a Tableeghi Maulana as to how you get "Tableegh" out of this verse and which Muffasir in the history of Islam turned this verse into "Tableegh"

[2:222] They ask you about menstruation. Say: .It is an impurity. So, keep away from women during menstruation; and do not have intimacy with them until they are cleansed. But when they are cleansed, then go to them from where Allah has commanded you. Surely Allah loves those who are most repenting, and loves those who keep themselves pure.

Still waiting for an answer...

Same goes for those who say that Tassawuff is in every single verse of the Qur'aan.

The fact of the matter is that Allah (SWT)'s Deen has many departments and compartments and all of them are necessary.

1. Tableegh
2. Tassawuff
3. Qitaal
4. Teaching/Learning
5. etc.

Are all necessary in equal mesaure and the priority will be determined by the need but generally they are all needed for a working Islamic society.

We are supposed to look at our capability and serve the Deen according to our capability and because we can't serve the Deen through another way is a testimony to our weakness and failure and doesn't mean that our department is the best.

[dafodilkemmy]

According to my observations there exists an anti-jihad culture in the whole of the Ummah, and not only Tabligh Jama'ah. So, you'll find them in TJ just as anywhere else. I think many Muslims have a warped understanding of what Jihad means due to (1) propaganda of Kuffar and (2) mischief done in the name of Jihad. They think Jihad simply means "slaughtering Kuffar", "kidnapping innocents" and "showing no mercy", but if you allude them to the jihadi stories compiled by Shaykh al-Hadith Mawlana Zakariyya in Hikaayatus Sahabah or Hadhrat-ji Mawlana Yusuf's explicit use of the word "Jihad" in chapters for Hayatus Sahabah they'll claim that this is something totally different.

These are just my general observations as I don't know which comments they actually made and how they replied to your advice. But at the same time I've witnessed myself Tablighi (elders) going to great lengths in defending Mujahideen. But the usual bickering and quarreling between both camps makes the gap just larger.

but what about the purana sathis who have spent many years and many 4 months learning the deen but then even after all this they still have an anti-jihad stance? surely they should know better after spending so much time and sacrifices in the service of the deen

also can you please please tell me who the tablighi elders are who defended the mujahideen and if possible the source for this .

i welcome comments from colonel hardstone, abu tamim, enigma and others.

[AmfitNom]

Common sense is not so common. Tabligh elders have much of commonsense

[dafodilkemmy]

Common sense is not so common. Tabligh elders have much of commonsense

sorry brother what do you mean by this? can you please expand.

[AmfitNom]

sorry brother what do you mean by this? can you please expand.

Before making a right decision making, the leader should use perception to make a productive decision.

Tablighi elders use perception in their effort. It's not an easy process for every tom, **** & harry to understand

[dafodilkemmy]

Before making a right decision making, the leader should use perception to make a productive decision.

Tablighi elders use perception in their effort. It's not an easy process for every tom, **** & harry to understand

how does this relate to my questions? i understand the hikmat behind being non-political and also not promoting jihad due to obstacles and injunctions being placed on tabligh jamaat by the kuffar.

i am not asking why tabligh jamaat is apolitical or why they only address one aspect of the deen. i am asking why there is an anti-jihad culture found within some people associated with tabligh jamaat, including in the purana sathis.

[Edqpdnuu]

Assalamu alaykum
Before making a right decision making, the leader should use perception to make a productive decision.

Tablighi elders use perception in their effort. It's not an easy process for every tom, **** & harry to understand true!!!

Let me add; to understand tableegh jamaat, one must posses the knowledge of the following:

The status of ummah globally, from villages of pakistan and India to cities of US and UK. And this is not through media or blogs.

An universal solution from washington to fiji, kazakhistan to melbourne, to this wide spectrum. You cannot have one for a village and another for a sophiscated city.

TJ in kashmir or chechanya is no different from Toronto.

Let me share my experience. We are a group of friends, I am alone from TJ. my friends use to argue the way it is done here in this forum and in this thread. My reply was silence. Later they formed a small organisation, they invited a scholar and had a small gathering. Many troubles started here. The list of troubles is a big one.

The statement made by them was "how do you manage TJ".

[dafodilkemmy]

1)don't know what was said and in what context so hard to really comment

it does not matter what was said. i am not addressing just that one incident. i talking about the anti-jihad culture found in some sathis in general.

2)what were the purana saathis even mentioning the topic?

sorry, are you asking why the purana sathis were mentioning the topic of jihad?

3)stay within the 6 points.

i completely agree but that is not an answer as sathis including purana sathis rarely stay within the 6 points. also i am not enquiring about the usools. i know the usools. i am enquiring why there is this anti-jihad mindset amongst some members.

4)do not say anything against any other effort of deen,whichever it may be.

yes but this isnt always the case.

5)spending lots of time in jamaat does not equate understanding of deen,understanding of the effort.

what does then?

5)the infradi reading of HAYATUS SAHABAH is now being told by Maulana Saad for the people engaged in the effort. It is a must. To sit everyday, and to read and ponder.

ok

On a positive note,glad you enjoyed your time.

alhamdolillah i did but i have to admit the anti-jihad comments did my head in! even now im thinking if i did the right thing or not by keeping quiet.

[dafodilkemmy]

Assalamu alaykum


true!!!

Let me add; to understand tableegh jamaat, one must posses the knowledge of the following:

The status of ummah globally, from villages of pakistan and India to cities of US and UK. And this is not through media or blogs.

An universal solution from washington to fiji, kazakhistan to melbourne, to this wide spectrum. You cannot have one for a village and another for a sophiscated city.

TJ in kashmir or chechanya is no different from Toronto.

Let me share experience. We are a group of friends, I am alone from TJ. They use to argue like here in this forum and in this thread. My reply was silence. After they formed a organisation, they invited a scholar and had a small gathering. This invited troubles to them. There is a big list.

The statement made by them was "how do you manage TJ".

how does this relate to my questions? i understand the hikmat behind being non-political and also not promoting jihad due to obstacles and injunctions being placed on tabligh jamaat by the kuffar.

i am not asking why tabligh jamaat is apolitical or why they only address one aspect of the deen. i am asking why there is an anti-jihad culture found within some people associated with tabligh jamaat, including in the purana sathis.

[AmfitNom]

how does this relate to my questions? i understand the hikmat behind being non-political and also not promoting jihad due to obstacles and injunctions being placed on tabligh jamaat by the kuffar.

i am not asking why tabligh jamaat is apolitical or why they only address one aspect of the deen. i am asking why there is an anti-jihad culture found within some people associated with tabligh jamaat, including in the purana sathis.

It's because there is no specific atmosphere of doing Jihad in most part of the worlds.

Jihad is used to safeguard the Muslims and spread the true word of Islam.

These are the steps of doing Jihad

1. Give dawah
2. If they don't accept it, then ask them to surrender and pay tax.
3. If they don't accept it, then fight them.

And even when fighting, the rules say that muslims shouldn't kill the children, women, elder people, priests and any other individual who is not related to fight.

So, now tell me. Where are muslims giving dawah ? Did pakistan give dawah to all Indians to become muslims

Even let's say they did Jihad with India and won, will the present pakistani govt able to rule India according to shariah rules (let's not forget it's corruption )

So where is the system where we can fight and establish the shariah ? Will you depend on Saudis or egypt, yemen or any other arab country ?

I don't say its the same rule all over, there are countries like Afghanistan where people are fighting for haq. (I don't understand why a country should be attacked for one guy because of personal enmity). In such places we can fight against kuffar, but what about other places ? who is going to rule them ? I don't think scholars like Mufti Taqi usmani and others can do it. If they were able to do it, they would have done it in pakistan by now.

It will happen only when all the muslims will come together and have complete faith on Allah and follow his commandments.

Just killing few people here and there illegally and calling it Jihad doesnt make it Jihad. Infact people who do such acts are to be killed according to islamic shariah as they kill the innocent women and children.

[dafodilkemmy]

sorry to be blunt, but perhaps you need to ask them. As you have kindly already pointed out, the TJ 'syllabus' ommits certain things out. this does not mean pro or against the things not mentioned.

here are my questions again (taken from my OP).......

1) why there is this type of culture (anti-jihadi) amongst some tablighi sathis?

2) where does this come from? (as this culture is not found in isolated cases).

3) do they have some sort of justification or some reason for this? (ie where does it stem from?)

4) are they wrong in this or are they right in this?

5) do you think that i am wrong in thinking that they have this anti-jihad culture?

[dafodilkemmy]

It's because there is no specific atmosphere of doing Jihad in most part of the worlds.

Jihad is used to safeguard the Muslims and spread the true word of Islam.

These are the steps of doing Jihad

1. Give dawah
2. If they don't accept it, then ask them to surrender and pay tax.
3. If they don't accept it, then fight them.

And even when fighting, the rules say that muslims shouldn't kill the children, women, elder people, priests and any other individual who is not related to fight.

So, now tell me. Where are muslims giving dawah ? Did pakistan give dawah to all Indians to become muslims

Even let's say they did Jihad with India and won, will the present pakistani govt able to rule India according to shariah rules (let's not forget it's corruption )

So where is the system where we can fight and establish the shariah ? Will you depend on Saudis or egypt, yemen or any other arab country ?

I don't say its the same rule all over, there are countries like Afghanistan where people are fighting for haq. (I don't understand why a country should be attacked for one guy because of personal enmity). In such places we can fight against kuffar, but what about other places ? who is going to rule them ? I don't think scholars like Mufti Taqi usmani and others can do it. If they were able to do it, they would have done it in pakistan by now.

It will happen only when all the muslims will come together and have complete faith on Allah and follow his commandments.

Just killing few people here and there illegally and calling it Jihad doesnt make it Jihad. Infact people who do such acts are to be killed according to islamic shariah as they kill the innocent women and children.

brother you have completely missed the whole point of this thread. maybe it is due to a language barrier or something.......

however if you want to discuss this post of yours then please start a new thread and we will discuss it.

[dafodilkemmy]

was the topic based on the companions or current affairs?

neither. it was just about jihad in general.

[Edqpdnuu]

here are my questions again (taken from my OP).......

1) why there is this type of culture (anti-jihadi) amongst some tablighi sathis?

2) where does this come from? (as this culture is not found in isolated cases).

3) do they have some sort of justification or some reason for this? (ie where does it stem from?)

4) are they wrong in this or are they right in this?

5) do you think that i am wrong in thinking that they have this anti-jihad culture? 1. The actual culture is don't discuss jihad in TJ.

2. When forced to speak on jihaad by some people who come with intention of provoking (my personal experience), yes we have to pro or anti stance. Then on a TJ forum from neutral instance it changes to anti-jihaadi.

3. reply no.2

4. as I said earlier to understand this read my earlier post.
to understand tableegh jamaat, one must posses the knowledge of the following:

The status of ummah globally, from villages of pakistan and India to cities of US and UK. And this is not through media or blogs.

An universal solution from washington to fiji, kazakhistan to melbourne, to this wide spectrum. You cannot have one for a village and another for a sophiscated city.

TJ in kashmir or chechanya is no different from Toronto.

Let me share my experience. We are a group of friends, I am alone from TJ. my friends use to argue the way it is done here in this forum and in this thread. My reply was silence. Later they formed a small organisation, they invited a scholar and had a small gathering. Many troubles started here. The list of troubles is a big one.

The statement made by them was "how do you manage TJ". 5. reply to 4.

[dafodilkemmy]

1. The actual culture is don't discuss jihad in TJ.

you are talking about the usool not the culture. i know what the usool is. the usool is not to talk about politics and other controversial issues. jihad is discussed in the correct context and also narrated from fazail amaal.

but that is not what i am discussing here. i thought i made it clear. i am discussing the apparent culture of anti-jihad found in some sathis.

2. When forced to speak on jihaad by some people who come with intention of provoking (my personal experience), yes we have to pro or anti stance. Then on a TJ forum from neutral instance it changes to anti-jihaadi.

im not really sure what you are trying to say here. are you trying to say that sathis have a anti-jihad stance because they are forced to by other people?

3. reply no.2

justification has to come from the quran and the sunnah as understood by our ulama. you cannot make up justification on your own on the matters of the deen.

4. as I said earlier to understand this read my earlier post.


5. reply to 4.

all i asked was are some sathis wrong or right to have an anti-jihadi stance and i asked if i am mistaken in thinking that some sathis have an anti-jihadi stance and you go on to explain it in the context of the whole effort of tabligh. i know the usools of tabligh and i understand why the have these usools. i am not talking about the usools. i am talking about a culture within tabligh where some sathis have a anti-jihad stance and argue against it.

[AmfitNom]

brother you have completely missed the whole point of this thread. maybe it is due to a language barrier or something.......

however if you want to discuss this post of yours then please start a new thread and we will discuss it.

I clearly understood what ur trying to say.

And my answer is clear on why there is anti-jihadi culture in tj. It's only because the jihad propagated today is not the true jihad. Hope you got it ?

[nuncEtedben]

Because the effort of TJ is apoltical and more to do with making people aware of their beleif at a personal level. The remit of TJ is to make average person inculcate love and sincerety. How a person act on this is their perogative. TJ should stay a political. This is their strength. The last thing we need a muslim version of chrsitian evengelical group with political agenda. People today find it difficult to live a normal muslim life. The effort of TJ is to make the life god centric as oppose to politique centric.

[dafodilkemmy]

I clearly understood what ur trying to say.

And my answer is clear on why there is anti-jihadi culture in tj. It's only because the jihad propagated today is not the true jihad. Hope you got it ?

yes i have understood what you are trying to say. you are saying that the tablighis are not against jihad but are against the jihad that is being carried out today as they believe that that is not true jihad. so now can you tell me who passed judgement to say that today's jihad is not true jihad? was there a fatwa by a mufti or did some people decide this for themselves? i can show you of many deobandi ulama who support the jihad in afghanistan.

from which ulama did sathis conclude that today's jihad is not true jihad?