[doogiehoussi]

Saw this fatwa, from a mufti of Taqi uthmani's darul 'uloom, on the issue of sifaat. Although it has a mixture of right and wrong, but it was surprising to see:

1) Ashraf 'ali thanvi said that Salaf took the haqiqi meaning of Sifaat.
2) A deobandi mufti (admiring and quoting ashraf ali's statement in (1)) and said that salaf did tafweed of modality.

[ulnanVti]

This is extensively discussed in the last book of Shaykh Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) Bawadirun-Nawadir and also see Arabic footnotes in the last print of his Tafseer [7:54]

[doogiehoussi]

Unfortunately i don't have any of his two works you mentioned. Could you please enlighten us ?

[johnuioyer]

Unfortunately i don't have any of his two works you mentioned. Could you please enlighten us ?

Do you live in America? The work can be bought from darululoom madania, eight or nine dollars.

[vipBrooriErok]

Unfortunately i don't have any of his two works you mentioned. Could you please enlighten us ?

InshAllah I will post the scan of Hadhrat's Risalah which will be sufficient to address the issue. I will also check the quoted ibarah, since it seems to be slightly off. But the similar ibarat comes in different places, so I will check it up. Moreover, even if the ibarah is as quoted, the second sentence is vital in understanding the first one. Perhaps I will talk about it afterwards.

I am also trying get confirmation of this fatwa, since the information is contrary to what the imdad ul fatawa has mentioned.

[doogiehoussi]

InshAllah I will post the scan of Hadhrat's Risalah which will be sufficient to address the issue. I will also check the quoted ibarah, since it seems to be slightly off. But the similar ibarat comes in different places, so I will check it up. Moreover, even if the ibarah is as quoted, the second sentence is vital in understanding the first one. Perhaps I will talk about it afterwards.

W'alaikum assalam wt wbt

JazakAllah.

I am also trying get confirmation of this fatwa, since the information is contrary to what the imdad ul fatawa has mentioned.

What specific information is contrary to imdadul fatawa ?

[vipBrooriErok]

W'alaikum assalam wt wbt

JazakAllah.


What specific information is contrary to imdadul fatawa ?

No.. quote seems okay. It is the part of the whole risalah. I will post the risalah when I have made pdf of it inshAllah.

It seems a pretty detailed tahqeeq and very interesting. JazakAllah for bringing it up..

[Ladbarbastirm]

No.. quote seems okay. It is the part of the whole risalah. I will post the risalah when I have made pdf of it inshAllah.

It seems a pretty detailed tahqeeq and very interesting. JazakAllah for bringing it up..

Either way, the words " کنہ کو مفوض للعلم الٰہی کرتے ہیں ،اور کوئی کیفیت متعین نہیں کرتے" actually destroys the anthropomorphous belief of present day pseudo-salafis, who actually take it as their own parts. Maulana Thanvi Rahimahullah has denounced the claim of the mushabbiha further down. So I don't know what the purpose of posting the fatwa was.

BTW, Masha'Allah I like the a'daab of brother Tawheed when he's addressing the Ulama. I wonder how long will it take for me to get banned from a pseudo-salafi forum if I write Nasir Albani or Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab Najdi.

[vipBrooriErok]

Either way, the words " کنہ کو مفوض للعلم الٰہی کرتے ہیں ،اور کوئی کیفیت متعین نہیں کرتے" actually destroys the anthropomorphous belief of present day pseudo-salafis, who actually take it as their own parts. Maulana Thanvi Rahimahullah has denounced the claim of the mushabbiha further down. So I don't know what the purpose of posting the fatwa was.

BTW, Masha'Allah I like the a'daab of brother Tawheed when he's addressing the Ulama. I wonder how long will it take for me to get banned from a pseudo-salafi forum if I write Nasir Albani or Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab Najdi.

Please do not let his lack of adab drag you down the same line

In anycase, the risalah is not as straight forward as you have mentioned. In fact I have so far read the first half of the risalah probably 3 times. I have to say its a brilliant piece thus far. In fact Maulana clearly shatters the incorrect assertion from both parties. Please read the part about salafiya and khalafiya (these are his attribution or rather groups attributing themselves wrongfully)...

The explanation of kunh which comes approx 3 or 4 pages later is marvellous.. I just wish someone could translate this piece.

[InvertPrete]

from a pseudo-salafi forum

depends which forum you are refering.

[doogiehoussi]

Either way, the words " کنہ کو مفوض للعلم الٰہی کرتے ہیں ،اور کوئی کیفیت متعین نہیں کرتے" actually destroys the anthropomorphous belief of present day pseudo-salafis, who actually take it as their own parts. Maulana Thanvi Rahimahullah has denounced the claim of the mushabbiha further down. So I don't know what the purpose of posting the fatwa was.

The purpose was to show the contradiction in the ranks of deos. Because thanvi said salaf took literal meaning of sifaat while other deos say that salaf didn't.

Please tell us which salafi/athari took/take sifaat as their own parts.

BTW, Masha'Allah I like the a'daab of brother Tawheed when he's addressing the Ulama. I wonder how long will it take for me to get banned from a pseudo-salafi forum if I write Nasir Albani or Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab Najdi.

That was a joke, right ? How could anyone ban you for writing Nasiruddin al albani or MbAW al najdi.

[vipBrooriErok]

The purpose was to show the contradiction in the ranks of deos. Because thanvi said salaf took literal meaning of sifaat while other deos say that salaf didn't.

Please tell us which salafi/athari took/take sifaat as their own parts.

er.. dont be impatient.. untill you get the pdf please translate the first three sentenecs of Maulana Thanvi r.a. The one which are about the salafs aqeedah.. this way i will know whether even giving the pdf will be helpful or not..

[doogiehoussi]

Wa'alaikum assalam wrt wbt

He objected/asked the purpose of this thread, so i responded to that.

I will also bring other statements from him and other deobandis and see your responses to know whether responding further to people here is helpful or not.

wassalam

[vipBrooriErok]

Wa'alaikum assalam wrt wbt

He objected/asked the purpose of this thread, so i responded to that.

I will also bring other statements from him and other deobandis and see your responses to know whether responding further to people here is helpful or not.

wassalam

That will be your next step akhi, for now just translate the first three lines..

[doogiehoussi]

One way is that of salaf (which is) to take this (sifaat) on its literal meaning, and to relegate the true nature of meaning to the knowledge of Ilahi (Allah), and do not decide any modality of it, and the second way is that of khalaf (which is) to do apropriate ta'weel in it (issues of sifaat), so that the misguided sects (like) mushabbiha and mujassemah do not give them wrong meaning.

(Imdadul fatawa, Vol-6, page 28)

[CFstantony]

He (Allah) then firmly established Himself over the Throne

By Hakim al-Ummah Mawlana Ashraf 'Ali Thanawi


http://deoband.org/2009/01/quran/qur...er-the-throne/

[FelicitaJ]

Brother Tawheed, what exactly do you mean by Literal let's assume we take the arabic words Wajh Yad Ayn in a Literal way these words have multiple meanings in the arabic language since we don't delve into their meanings we leave them to Allah but Salafi's by saying YES it's literal Allah has a Wajh Yad Ayn in a Literal way that's also a form of interpretation and delving into the meaning since both Literalism as well as Methaphorical deduction are both ways of INTERPRETATION

Brother Tawheed's picture is the cover of Bilal Philips book on Tawheed (inspired by Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab) so it's obvious that he's from the Salafi group.

[vipBrooriErok]

One way is that of salaf (which is) to take this (sifaat) on its literal meaning, and to relegate the true nature of meaning to the knowledge of Ilahi (Allah), and do not decide any modality of it, and the second way is that of khalaf (which is) to do apropriate ta'weel in it (issues of sifaat), so that the misguided sects (like) mushabbiha and mujassemah do not give them wrong meaning.

(Imdadul fatawa, Vol-6, page 28)

jazak Allah.. you are very close.. Whats the difference between "true nature" Vs "any modality"? If tafweedh is being made of both of these then what is there left of the "literal meaning"?

Although when you read the pdf you will understand that the term haqeeqi ma'na is not translated in it truest nature. but that is a slightly longer discussion which Ml. Thanvi r.a himself makes in the risalah..

He also discusses the explanation of "true nature" in the risalah, but you can atleast try to excercise a little bit of your brain before reading the whole risalah.

@Orthodox,

We all know from our previous confrontations with Tawheed that he is a Salafi.

[vipBrooriErok]

please read through the complete risalah : http://www.fileshost.com/download.php?id=C904770D1

[Sheelldaw]

Since Mufti Mehmood Ashraf Usmani signed the fatwa in the intial post as correct, I think it would be relevant to listen to his explanation of this issue first hand. In the initial part of the following lecture (around 4 minutes or so), he explains how to take such ayaat of the Quraan. The lecture is in Urdu.

http://nooresunnat.com/Download.php?BayanID=1427