[Nubtoubrem]

I'm not sure. It has to come from him. This pledge must not be very famous. Virtually no one has signed it.

[Illirmpipse]

Actually it's, ALL i can say is....
If you wish to further discuss this issue, i don't mind at all. (By the way, you have yet to show any reference to back your claim of the existing ijmaa').

Wassalamu 'alaikum.

It was not me who said that there is ijma' akhi. check your sources

wa salam

[Hoglaunccoolf]

i know, but my point is, they showed eachother mutual respect. for those people/sheikhs/imams/etc that are telling people to avoid zakir naik lectures, they should rather speak to zakir naik directly or better yet, do a joint lecture to discuss their different points of view.

that would allow us to maintain unity.

The matter - as i'm sure you've noticed on this forum alone (and muslimvillage) - is not as dandy as we might think it to be. Had intentions, understandings, loyalty etc been so malleable we possibly would never have sunni-shia-salafi-etc differences at all!
Zakir naik is not a little child who has suddenly come up with a little idea, that a sheikh can just walk up to him and say "No no, that is against the understanding of the ummah". He is a lerned, intellectual adult, not only does he have his own cognitive processes and understanding, but also loyalties and to an extent, im sure, pride (as we all do). Being Indian, i'm sure he knows ALL about madhabs.

If only the solution to all the Ummah's schisms were a scholarly debate. Its not.

The reason people warn to avoid Zakir Naik is because he DOES keep dispensing fiqhi rulings! I'm certainly aware of a few, he once told a group of people who most likely were hanafi that the "CORRECT way to pray witr is 2+1 rakahs". Further his false belief (and propogation) that madhabs are sects and shouldn't be specifically followed is bound to confuse the common muslims and send them further from the truth, may Allah protect us.

Not everyone is equipped to be able to differentiate detailed rights from wrongs - I know i'm not, and that is the reason i stick to trustworthy Ulema of the Haqq that constitutes the majority of the Ummah's scholarship, Alhumdulillah.

[ArrereGarhync]

I like Dr. Zakir Naik (Hafidhuallah), despite his shortcomings and faults. He has done a lot of good, and he merely needs to be advised and cautioned. I think that people should not hate on him completely as if he is the devil incarnate. He is sincere, and that counts for something.

I think a lot of people insult him by saying "you are not a scholar, not even a student of knowledge", etc. But in reality, the fact is that EVEN WITHOUT being any of those things, he has done a lot more good than many scholars and students of knowledge. The other day I was thinking about how Univ of Medinah accepts 1,000 or so students every year...and that's just one of the many Islamic universities and madressas in the world...now my question is: where the heck are all those people after they graduate? I've noticed that only a few of them truly shine and excel, whereas most just fade into obscurity. I think there is some problem with the selection criteria at these institutions that they accept so many mediocre people.

On the other hand, there are some people who just excel. For example, Sh. Hamza Yousuf excels. I of course disagree with many of his views and that is obvious. But I will be the first to admit that he excels. Look at the following he created...he mobilized so many people simply with his charisma. The same can be said of Sh. Yassir Qadhi...and some others, but it seems like you can count them on your fingers...

I know I'm rambling here, but I just think that Dr. Zakir Naik is one of those people that excels, who has a certain quality to him...I think he should just study a few years at a madressa, and then he'd be golden.

Dr. Zakir Naik has done a lot of good ,and I think it is wrong to attack him completely.

[Arexytece]

I do not think you should pick on Dr Zakir Naik like this. When he calls madhab a sect and you say he is out of ahlu sunnah than you may as well question the saudi government because one of the forms you have to fill in has sect written in english and madhab in arabic.

leave him alone. all you home made scholars like picking on people like dr zakir and shaykh hamza, just keep quiet let the real scholars deal with this.

[Hoglaunccoolf]

The Saudi government is certainly no standard to judge by, it has always been 'questionable', ever since its initiation ...

PS: Just to reiterate, the ULEMA have warned against Dr Zakir Naik (askimam etc), we're just conveying the same fatwa (:

[maxuilg]

AbuQuteiba As-Salafee

As-Salaamu Alaikum,

First thing is that you need to learn some adaab, something that you ruined people always seem to lack!

I never said that following a Madhab alone is what makes you a Sunni.
But like i believe i said, not being a Shi'i doesn't mean you are a Sunni. No matter the label, he doesn't follow the Jama'ah as is quite evident.

I know where the burden of proof lies. You see, that a person says that there is 'ijma wouldn't mean there actually is. Hence i sincerely ask you to show me a couple of 'ulama form the past who disagreed and said that one does not need to follow a Madhab.

Even the "Salafi" scholars such as Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Baz have said that the laymen must do Taqleed of one of the four Madhahhib, and even scholars until they reach a level where they can look at the proofs and say which one is stronger than the other. But this is the same view as held within the Madhahhib, you reach different levels where you are able to do more and more on your own. The only thing is that Bin Baz pretty much concidered himself a independent mujtahid and hence he felt he didn't need to follow a Madhab. He seems to have been a Hanbali in the Usul but then went his own way.

You say that there is no correct 'ijma that goes against the Qur'an and Sunnah. Yes but you have to ask yourself the question why the Inheritors of the Prophet all deviated and you are your Albanian Shaikh are the only ones who are right on the matter. Because that's indeed a vital question.

If you wish, i will keep silent because of my ignorance, and you can let the wisdom flow out your fingertips unto the keyboard O Talafi!

[payowlirriply]

How about his method of Dawat?

brothers what is the final decision?

[Nubtoubrem]

It was not me who said that there is ijma' akhi. check your sources

wa salam

Wa'alaykum asalaam wa rahmatullah. You claim it exists. Perhaps you can point out a couple of sources.

[viagraman]

As-salaamu 'alaikum

Dear Br. Isa

Calling somebody "ruined"is hardly a shinning example of having the good manners that you request of others. "Talafi", did Allaah (subahaanahu wa ta'aala) not forbid us from insulting one another with nicknames?

Was-salaamu 'alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

[Nubtoubrem]

AbuQuteiba As-Salafee

As-Salaamu Alaikum,

First thing is that you need to learn some adaab, something that you ruined people always seem to lack!

I never said that following a Madhab alone is what makes you a Sunni.
But like i believe i said, not being a Shi'i doesn't mean you are a Sunni. No matter the label, he doesn't follow the Jama'ah as is quite evident.

I know where the burden of proof lies. You see, that a person says that there is 'ijma wouldn't mean there actually is. Hence i sincerely ask you to show me a couple of 'ulama form the past who disagreed and said that one does not need to follow a Madhab.

Even the "Salafi" scholars such as Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Baz have said that the laymen must do Taqleed of one of the four Madhahhib, and even scholars until they reach a level where they can look at the proofs and say which one is stronger than the other. But this is the same view as held within the Madhahhib, you reach different levels where you are able to do more and more on your own. The only thing is that Bin Baz pretty much concidered himself a independent mujtahid and hence he felt he didn't need to follow a Madhab. He seems to have been a Hanbali in the Usul but then went his own way.

You say that there is no correct 'ijma that goes against the Qur'an and Sunnah. Yes but you have to ask yourself the question why the Inheritors of the Prophet all deviated and you are your Albanian Shaikh are the only ones who are right on the matter. Because that's indeed a vital question.

If you wish, i will keep silent because of my ignorance, and you can let the wisdom flow out your fingertips unto the keyboard O Talafi!

Wa'alaykum asalaaam wa rahmatullah.

Subhan Allah. This post just lights up with adab, doesn't it? ((Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (to practise it) yourselves.)) [2.44] You claim false ijmaa's, without daleel, and i lack adab? Subhaan Allah. You lack adab with Allaah 'azza wa jal.

What jamaa'ah exactly? Your jamaa'ah?

I'm aware, because there isn't. I will do so gladly, once you admit that there is no such existing ijmaaa'.

Have we started making things up again? Sheikh IbnBaaz and sheikh Ibn 'Uthaymeen have refuted both of those claims many times. They have both mentioned that it is not obligatory for anyone to follow any math-hab. Although they do advise the student of knowledge to start off with a single math-hab, and work his way up. But that's only a method.

Indeed. Who are the inheritors you speak of? Perhaps you could prove that the four Imaams were part of these inheritors. Since we are using their sayings to refute your claims. Another question. To what math-hab did the four Imaams adhere to?

Wassalamu 'alaikum.

[Illirmpipse]

Wa'alaykum asalaam wa rahmatullah. You claim it exists. Perhaps you can point out a couple of sources.

Ask the brother who pointed it out to give you the proof I'm not getting involved in this one. I did not make such a claim so don't try to drag me in this!!

[Signabeademia]

To what math-hab did the four Imaams adhere to?

This question can be advanced further:

To what madhab did the salafs adhere to?
To what madhab did the companions adhere to?
To what madhab did the Prophet adhere to?

[maxuilg]

AbuQuteiba As-Salafee
As-Salaamu Alaikum,

I sincerely appologise for my improper words. I do not claim a false 'ijma, and if you could quote a few scholars who were not Mujtahid Imams but didn't follow a Madhab, or at least said that you do not have to follow one, then i will withdraw my claim and do tawba.

I have not made things up, i said that Ibn Baz and Ibn Uthaymeen said that one should follow a Madhab, which is true. Now they might not have said that it's Wajib, but they did encourage one to do so. So please do not claim that i make things up.

You do not refute my claims with help of the sayings of the Four Imams, radiyAllahu Ta'aala anhum. I'm not gonna argue the sincerity of your interpretation of their sayings. But scholars have interpret it differently throughout history. And you must also understand that great people often say things out of humbleness.

Then you ask which Madhab the Four Imams adhered to. This means that you don't listen to what we are saying. We say, one who is not a independent mujtahid have to follow a Madhab. Now these four were independent mujtahids. But the fact is that Imam ash Shafi'iy, radiyAllahu anhu, was a staunch Maliki and propogated the Maliki Madhab when he was in Iraq. It was not until later that he went to form his own school.

[Illirmpipse]

:d

[maxuilg]

This question can be advanced further:

To what madhab did the salafs adhere to?
To what madhab did the companions adhere to?
To what madhab did the Prophet adhere to?

Sayyiduna Muhammad, SallAllahu Ta'aala wa aalihi wassalaam, did not follow a Madhab since he was the Prophet. The Sahaba, radiyAllahu anhum, took Fatawa from the Sahaba who were known for their knowledge on Hadith and Ijtihad. These include Abu Bakr, 'Umar, Uthman, 'Ali, Ibn Mas'ud, Ibn 'Abbas, Ibn 'Umar, Jabir Ibn Abdullah, and A'isha, radiyAllahu Ta'aala anhum ajma'een.

The Tabi'een were those who studied under them, and hence they took their knowledge from them and other Sahaba who had studied under the more knowledgable Sahaba. Tabi'een also took from the more knowledgable Tabi'een.

The thing is that laymen took from the scholars then just as they do now. The difference is that there were Mujtahid Imams back then, while there ain't none now. Hence we follow the Mujtahid Imams and the schools that they established. There were more Imams of such a high caliber, but their schools were not recorded as good and have not come down to us authentic.

But there were schools as the Thawri Madhab, named after Imam Sufyan at-Thawri, Jariri Madhab after Imam Ibn Jarir at-Tabari and others.

Wassalaam

[vipBrooriErok]

For the issue of Madhab or Taqleed of one Madhab please read the list of material provided in the sticky thread at

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27244

Any further comment on that topic will be penalized since that is NOT the topic here.

As for Dr. Zakir Saheb, he is a medical doctor by profession, and a comparative religion speaker. He is what he is, i.e a speaker. We should never confuse between the two. His style is majorly if not all, taken from his Mentor Sheikh Deedat r.a whose approach to Islamic Studies was much more balanced than Dr. Saheb. Sheikh Deedat kept it his perorogative not to indulge into Fiqhi and Aqida issues, however Dr. Sahib being under heavy influence of self study went in many areas where he as a layman should have abstained.

For muslims, all that is advised it to learn his comparative religion arguments while seeking advice from Ulama, and not to keep him as a role model in Islamic Fields.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatoh

Zakir Naik is known for discussions on comparative religions. He is not a qualified Aalim of deen. His comments on fiqh have not merit. If it is true that he condemned the fiqh of the Imams, then that in itself is a clear indication of his lack of fiqh and understanding of Shairah. We have come across a fatwa from Darul Ifta Jamia Binnoria, regarding Zakir Naik not being a certified Aalim of Deen. He should consult with Ulama in his endeavor of propagating deen.

And Allah knows best

Wassalam

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah

[nmnrIjGB]

Salam Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh,

Subhanallah, one of my all time favourite muslim icons. He is a human computer. He memorized the Bible the Holy Qu'ran, and I think the Talmud as well.

One of the best muslim debaters. Check him out at Peace Tv.

Allah knows best,

Salam.

[Ivanaishere]

Salaam.

The guys a good debater and inspires a lot of Muslims...So thats good.

[Nubtoubrem]

AbuQuteiba As-Salafee
As-Salaamu Alaikum,

I sincerely appologise for my improper words. I do not claim a false 'ijma, and if you could quote a few scholars who were not Mujtahid Imams but didn't follow a Madhab, or at least said that you do not have to follow one, then i will withdraw my claim and do tawba.

I have not made things up, i said that Ibn Baz and Ibn Uthaymeen said that one should follow a Madhab, which is true. Now they might not have said that it's Wajib, but they did encourage one to do so. So please do not claim that i make things up.

You do not refute my claims with help of the sayings of the Four Imams, radiyAllahu Ta'aala anhum. I'm not gonna argue the sincerity of your interpretation of their sayings. But scholars have interpret it differently throughout history. And you must also understand that great people often say things out of humbleness.

Then you ask which Madhab the Four Imams adhered to. This means that you don't listen to what we are saying. We say, one who is not a independent mujtahid have to follow a Madhab. Now these four were independent mujtahids. But the fact is that Imam ash Shafi'iy, radiyAllahu anhu, was a staunch Maliki and propogated the Maliki Madhab when he was in Iraq. It was not until later that he went to form his own school.

I would like to reply, but we have been warned not to by the MOD. if you'd like, we can take this to the link in the MOD'S post.