[plalleste]

all,

you see, when people talk about something in general terms, and yet we "felt" that that that something "must be a criticism against us", then you know that you have something wrong somewhere.

I'll answer to this post directly;
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post829366

Forget about SHY for a moment. I want to answer to a few things highlighted by brother mh16388 from a locked thread above. The reason why I want to answer that is because some of the things he said actually touches a more fundamental attitude/thinking that some of the Muslims have. And it definitely has nothing to do with SHY.

"firstly:
- kuffar gaining technical prowess is not a sign of achievement or anything. making them hujjah is a grave mistake. this world is a deception never forget that. a better example would have been of the sahaba (ra)."

You see, when it comes to technology, we have two totally different attitudes. When we talk about current technology, we say that it never meant anything to our goal, that is to strive towards the hereafter.

But our attitude suddenly change we talk about the past achievement, that those were the examples of achievement that Muslims are always capable of, and that was something that we hold dear and proud of (pride, not in a sense as arrogance).

Forget about the attitude and two different standards when we apply them. There's a deeper issue here than "just technology". That deeper issue is, in the current state, we the Muslims can't agree on anything at all. If we have 10 agendas to be discussed, and even if we disagree on only 1 out of those 10 issues, we immediately cancel any cooperation between the two parties. Compare that with the attitude I mentioned before, let's agree to disagree on that particular 1 issue (and in the mean time try to find a solution to it), and let's work on the agreed 9 other points. Or just for a discussion sake, let's say the second scenario would be just 1 item is agreed upon, while 9 other agendas differed.

Of course the second scenario would move forward, even at an inch a time, while the first would stay stagnant. And having technology capability is, as permitted by Allah , as a by product of moving forward one inch at a time.

"- the Muslims have black gold and are weak. you know why they are weak? it is because they left important faraidh and now have secular governments or american puppets sitting over them. yet in SHY's definition of whats wrong with our society we dont hear about that. the entire society's have been secularized with media brainwashing them every day. they don't care about state of ummah or anything. we have no caliphate. yet we like to point out how we first have to be perfect Muslims so that we can then work for a real political solution. strange condition."

I guess the above is just your personal observation, nothing more than that. Others are working towards rebuilding the Caliphate. If you really strive for it too, then get your hands dirtied and join the crowd. And once you do, less talk and more work will be the norms.

"you do realize sh. hamza in his retraction has also called those who criticized him for the comments on lahori mirzais as sectarian fitna mongers? who poked the 'sleeping giant' awake? did we or did sh hamza yusuf with his lecture on lahori mirzais? is it not a fundamental issue when a kafir is not called a kafir? when those who deny khatme nabuwwat are not called kafir just because azhar liked a translation done by one of their kind?
its not just a retraction it also includes some paragraphs where problems of Muslims are solely placed on the shoulders who dont agree with this traditional maliki sect. i discussed that in detail in my posts below.
again you are adopting the old rhetoric of dont judge . when its not the same as pointing out a mistake. how hard is that to understand."

so you're capable of arguing and counter arguing with the said sheikh. Then you must be an alim of somewhat comparable knowledge with him then.

Btw, regardless of who's an alim that you discuss with, and if you're an alim yourself, then you should realize that all the sources that you quoted to back your arguments up, probably are the same sources used by another alim for an opinion different than yours. THAT is why, when two alims discuss, the perfect adab is to discuss it quietly and NOT in the public, as that can be the cause of misunderstanding to a layman.

Secondly, let's talk about the sources used to back up one's opinion. Both sides have access to those sources. Most probably both sides did study the same texts, albeit under different teachers. The understanding of the texts and the way the ideas formulated by the teachers are different, also the applicability of those ideas in the real world would be different (as shown by their respective teachers). But as long as the fundamentals are all glued together and the applications are within the same boundaries as taught to us by the Prophet , then it should be fine.

Hence that's why when two alims dicused some issues, they would do it in depth, and would take some time to reach a conclusion. Just a page reply won't do any justice for any in-depth issue discussed between two alims.

Let's learn from the past. See how two alims with different opinions would answer to each other by writing books. That's how in-depth the discussion was.

Just a page is not doing a justice, let alone to call someone as a deviant

[verybigf]

That thread did not have a very high level of self-reflection and it is unlikely that participants will switch ultra-fast to that.

Even then let us see.