[QysnZWB4]

Throughout the ages, a divergence tends to develop between the original rulings of the Madhab, and the views of the ulama of a particular era. The role of the Mujaddid and the Muhaqqiq is to revive the original teachings. There is compelling evidence that such a revival in scholarship and tahqeeq took place last century at the the school of Deoband. A group of ulama emerged who produced innumerable scholarly works which resembled, as attested to by scholars globally, the works of the early classical scholars. Since their focus was the Hanafi Madhab, a revival of the original teachings of the Hanafi Madhab took place.

These Muhaqqiqs did not accept the rulings of the latter day fuqaha, without first deriving and verifying the actual ruling from the Usuls of the madhab, and according to usool ul-Fiqh of the Hanafi madhab. If the ruling differed, they adopted and revived the original ruling. Any view attributed to the Hanafi Madhab had to be based on reliable quotes from the founders of the madhab and verified by the early Fuqaha.

For a glimpse of the extent to which this divergence has developed between the ruling of the contemporary ulama and the Madhab, one only needs to observe how the following erroneous rulings, which are completely contrary to the ruling of the Madhab, are propagated widely by Hanafi scholars both in the sub-continent and the Arabian peninsula:

1) Building over the graves is permissible, and even recommended.

2) Trimming the beard below a fist-length is permissible. Some Hanafi ulama go as far as claiming that shaving is permissible.

3) Letting the trousers hang below the ankle is permissible if done without pride.

4) Attributing exclusive qualities of Allah to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace). For example, many ulama today attribute Ilmul ghayb (such as knowledge of the last hour) to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) despite the fact that the classical fuqaha have condemned such a belief very harshly. It is stated in the authoritative Hanafi texts, that anybody that attributes the ghayb to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) has committed Kufr!

There is nothing to indicate that the state of the other three Madhabs would not have deteriorated in the same manner.

Due to the clear disparity between the categorical commands of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) as understood by the Salaf, and the rulings of ulama who claim to be faithful representatives of the Madhabs, many sincere Muslims develop an inevitable distrust for the ulama, and fall for Salafism. One only needs to look at the following thread to see how certain groups of ulama have been pulling the wool over the eyes for so many years:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ing-on-graves)

In this thread I wish to discuss certain rulings attributed to a Madhab, which appear (at least on the surface) quite clearly contrary to the rulings issued by the early fuqaha.

[scemHeish]

Throughout the ages, a divergence tends to develop between the original rulings of the Madhab, and the views of the ulama of a particular era. The role of the Mujaddid and the Muhaqqiq is to revive the original teachings. There is compelling evidence that such a revival in scholarship and tahqeeq took place last century at the the school of Deoband. A group of ulama emerged who produced innumerable scholarly works which resembled, as attested to by scholars globally, the works of the early classical scholars. Since their focus was the Hanafi Madhab, a revival of the original teachings of the Hanafi Madhab took place.

These Muhaqqiqs did not accept the rulings of the latter day fuqaha, without first deriving and verifying the actual ruling from the Usuls of the madhab, and according to usul al-Fiqh of the Hanafi madhab. If the ruling differed, they adopted and revived the original ruling. Any view attributed to the Hanafi Madhab had to be based on reliable quotes from the founders of the madhab and verified by the early Fuqaha.

For a glimpse of the extent to which this divergence has developed between the ruling of the contemporary ulama and the Madhab, one only needs to observe how widespread the following erroneous rulings, which are completely contrary to the ruling of the Madhab, are propagated by Hanafi scholars both in the sub-continent and the Arabian peninsula:

1) Building over the graves is permissible, and even recommended.

2) Trimming the beard below a fist-length is permissible. Some Hanafi ulama go as far as claiming that shaving is permissible.

3) Letting the trousers hang below the ankle is permissible if done without pride.

4) Attributing exclusive qualities of Allah to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace). For example, many ulama today attribute Ilm al-ghayb (such as knowledge of the last hour) to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) despite the fact that the classical fuqaha have condemned very harshly. It is stated in the authoritative Hanafi texts, that anybody that attributes the ghayb to the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) has committed Kufr!

There is nothing to assume that the state of the other three Madhabs have not deteriorated in the same manner.

Due to the clear disparity between the categorical commands of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) as understood by the Salaf, and the rulings of ulama who claim to be faithful representatives of the Madhabs, many sincere Muslims develop an inevitable distrust for the ulama, and fall for Salafism. One only needs to look at the following thread to see how certain groups of ulama have been pulling the wool over the eyes for so many years:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ing-on-graves)

In this thread I wish to discuss certain rulings attributed to a Madhab, which appear (at least on the surface) quite clearly contrary to the rulings issued by the early fuqaha.

And what is your qualification by the way? I mean we need to know whether you are a man of credibility before we consume everything you give us like blind sheep? I'm sure you agree akhi, because I know you're sincere and you would want us to research more about this issue but the truth is that some of us (although a minority) are not really as sincere and we will actually accept everything you give us without a thought.
Hope that didn't offend you beloved akhi.

[QysnZWB4]

And what is your qualification by the way? I mean we need to know whether you are a man of credibility before we consume everything you give us like blind sheep? I'm sure you agree akhi, because I know you're sincere and you would want us to research more about this issue but the truth is that some of us (although a minority) are not really as sincere and we will actually accept everything you give us without a thought.
Hope that didn't offend you beloved akhi.

I only wish to discuss some of the rulings that are usually discussed on this forum anyway - for example the issue of trimming the beard which you asked regarding as well.

I wish to ask questions of knowledgable brothers on this forum regarding certain rulings being propagated by scholars today, which appear to contradict the rulings of the early fuqaha of the Madhab. I have contacted certain prominent scholars myself regarding some of the issues, and the answers were shockingly deficient to say the least.

[scemHeish]

I only wish to discuss some of the rulings that are usually discussed on this forum anyway - for example the issue of trimming the beard which you asked regarding as well.

I wish to ask questions of knowledgable brothers on this forum regarding certain rulings being propagated by scholars today, which appear to contradict the rulings of the early fuqaha of the Madhab. I have contacted certain prominent scholars myself regarding some of the issues, and the answers were shockingly deficient to say the least.

You are going to ask knowledgable brothers to teach you about whether the teaching of scholars is true or not? LOL. It's like asking a student whether what his teacher is teaching him is wrong or right.

[Hbkj89D2]

You are going to ask knowledgable brothers to teach you about whether the teaching of scholars is true or not? LOL. It's like asking a student whether what his teacher is teaching him is wrong or right.

it has been my experience that scholars can be silent.... Even when they know....

I found students to be more forthcoming with proofs and evidences..... and are willing to discuss, while scholars may not be willing to....

[scemHeish]

it has been my experience that scholars can be silent.... Even when they know....

I found students to be more forthcoming with proofs and evidences..... and are willing to discuss, while scholars may not be willing to....

It what sense do you mean they were silent? You mean you sent them an old email and they haven't responded? Maybe they never got to reach it due to the large amount of emails they get. Or did you question them in public? Maybe them saying that thing will be harmful towards them and so they didn't say it. BUT if you went to them in private and you told them and they remained silent and they didn't give you a reason, then okay, you have an excuse, but that doesn't discredit their nobility.

[Hbkj89D2]

It what sense do you mean they were silent? You mean you sent them an old email and they haven't responded? Maybe they never got to reach it due to the large amount of emails they get. Or did you question them in public? Maybe them saying that thing will be harmful towards them and so they didn't say it. BUT if you went to them in private and you told them and they remained silent and they didn't give you a reason, then okay, you have an excuse, but that doesn't discredit their nobility.

I simply said they were silent... All the above... Some times you have to ask several scholars just to get an answer... I think the reason they don't answer is they want you to submit to them... Obey them without question..... Scholars don't like difficult questions, they like question like, how many times a day do you have to pray??? If I break my wudu in the middle of the prayer, should I stop praying and make wudu and pray again???? They like questions that everybody already knows the answers to....

[scemHeish]

I simply said they were silent... All the above... Some times you have to ask several scholars just to get an answer... I think the reason they don't answer is they want you to submit to them... Obey them without question..... Scholars don't like difficult questions, they like question like, how many times a day do you have to pray??? If I break my wudu in the middle of the prayer, should I stop praying and make wudu and pray again???? They like questions that everybody already knows the answers to....

Becareful what you imply towards the beloved scholars for they are the messengers of the messenger. They are among those who fear Allah the most according to an interpretation of an ayat and they are those who allow us to still live islam in times of corruption. Maybe you haven't met real scholars, because they are the most open and gentle people I've ever met.

[QysnZWB4]

I would like to ask the scholars and knowledgable brothers here whether the following four statements are correct regarding the Shafi'i Madhab on the issue of trimming/shaving the beard:

1) Other than solitary opinions, the ruling for shaving is the same as that for trimming.

It seems there is no distinction between shaving and trimming in the Shafi'i madhab. According to the Shafi'i fuqaha, hadiths such as the one regarding Ibn Umar (radhiyallahu anhu) trimming to a fistful, are inadmissible as evidence to override the command to lengthen the beard. These Hadiths were deemed too weak to be used as a concession to the command to grow unrestrictedly. Imam Ghazali's use of such Hadith was refuted by the major Shafi'i fuqaha.

2) The ruling by the majority of fuqaha before and after Imam Nawawi was that the command to lengthen the beard is of the wujoob category, in agreement with the other three Madhabs.

From: http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?...14618&CATE=414

"The majority of scholars have understood the above-mentioned hadiths—all of which command Muslims to grow full beards—in their immediately obvious sense, coming to the conclusion that it is unlawful to completely shave the beard. This position has been transmitted from the imam of our school, Imam Shafi`i (may Allah be pleased with him and have mercy on him), and a number of Shafi`i scholars—both early and late—have adopted it as their preferred position. Among the early Shafi`is who held this position are the two great imams, Qaffal al-Shashi and Abu `Abdullah al-Halimi. Among the late Shafi`is who held this position are the two imams, Ibn al-Rif`ah and Shihab al-Adhra`i."

3) There were scholars after Imam Nawawi who adopted taqleed of Imam Shafi'i and the early fuqaha rather than Imam Nawawi on this issue.

"...Among the late Shafi`is who held this position are the two imams, Ibn al-Rif`ah and Shihab al-Adhra`i."

4) Imam Nawawi's ruling regarding shaving is Makruh, but his ruling regarding plucking a few grey hairs is Haram.

http://www.sunnipath.com/library/Hadith/H0004P0297.aspx

[QysnZWB4]

My primary aim in starting this thread is this:

Certain rulings, at least on the surface, appear to contradict the rulings issued by the early fuqaha. Someone here might know the answer why. I have contacted scholars directly but the answers were very unsatisfactory to say the least.

Any clarification by the scholars here would be very useful for me

[scemHeish]

My primary aim in starting this thread is this:

Certain rulings, at least on the surface, appear to contradict the rulings issued by the early fuqaha. Someone here might know the answer why. I have contacted scholars directly but the answers were very unsatisfactory to say the least.

Any clarification by the scholars here would be very useful for me

I'm pretty confident that there are no scholars here. They are waaay too busy to hang around in forums. You might possibly get pseudo-scholars in disguise and you accepting their opinion will be in your hands. Thought I'd let you know akhi. Be careful okay?

[QysnZWB4]

I'm pretty confident that there are no scholars here. They are waaay too busy to hang around in forums. You might possibly get pseudo-scholars in disguise and you accepting their opinion will be in your hands. Thought I'd let you know akhi. Be careful okay?

for you advice. I'll be on the lookout

[QysnZWB4]

I would like to ask the scholars and knowledgable brothers here whether the following four statements are correct regarding the Shafi'i Madhab on the issue of trimming/shaving the beard:

1) Other than solitary opinions, the ruling for shaving is the same as that for trimming.

It seems there is no distinction between shaving and trimming in the Shafi'i madhab. According to the Shafi'i fuqaha, hadiths such as the one regarding Ibn Umar (radhiyallahu anhu) trimming to a fistful, are inadmissible as evidence to override the command to lengthen the beard. These Hadiths were deemed too weak to be used as a concession to the command to grow unrestrictedly. Imam Ghazali's use of such Hadith was refuted by the major Shafi'i fuqaha.

2) The ruling by the majority of fuqaha before and after Imam Nawawi was that the command to lengthen the beard is of the wujoob category, in agreement with the other three Madhabs.

From: http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?...14618&CATE=414

"The majority of scholars have understood the above-mentioned hadiths—all of which command Muslims to grow full beards—in their immediately obvious sense, coming to the conclusion that it is unlawful to completely shave the beard. This position has been transmitted from the imam of our school, Imam Shafi`i (may Allah be pleased with him and have mercy on him), and a number of Shafi`i scholars—both early and late—have adopted it as their preferred position. Among the early Shafi`is who held this position are the two great imams, Qaffal al-Shashi and Abu `Abdullah al-Halimi. Among the late Shafi`is who held this position are the two imams, Ibn al-Rif`ah and Shihab al-Adhra`i."

3) There were scholars after Imam Nawawi who adopted taqleed of Imam Shafi'i and the early fuqaha rather than Imam Nawawi on this issue.

"...Among the late Shafi`is who held this position are the two imams, Ibn al-Rif`ah and Shihab al-Adhra`i."

4) Imam Nawawi's ruling regarding shaving is Makruh, but his ruling regarding plucking a few grey hairs is Haram.

http://www.sunnipath.com/library/Hadith/H0004P0297.aspx

Continuing from the above, I have had a number of questions regarding the judgement that the command to lengthen the beard is "merely recommended":

http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?...14618&CATE=414
"...the two great verifying scholars of the Shafi`i school, Imam Abul Qasim al-Rafi`i and Imam Abu Zakariyya al-Nawawi—in accordance with the position of Imam Ghazali—have ruled that to keep a full beard is merely recommended"

If Imam Nawawi and Imam Abul Qasim al-Rafi'i gave tarjeeh to a particular Ijtihad, which Mujtahids prior to them, other than Imam Ghazali, made such an Ijtihad?

If it is their own Ijtihad, what Daleel did they produce to override the Ijtihad of Imam Shafi'i, a Mujtahid Mutlaq, and the fuqaha of the Shafi'i Madhab, the majority of whom seem to have agreed that the command to lengthen the beard is Wajib?

In the five centuries prior to Imam Ghazali what was the Mu'tamad ruling of the Madhab?

[ViaplyVuple]

Sidi SeekerOfGuidance,

1) Yes, the mu´tamad is that the hukm for trimming is the same as for shaving. It is disliked to take anything from the beard except for Hajj and Umrah, where there is no dislike to trim, and it is better that it not be done shorter than one fist length. So Shafi´i Fuqaha have made a concession, even if not purely based on the narration of Ibn ´Umar (ra). There is also a (very) weak Hadith in regards to the Prophet (sallallahu ´alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) trimming his mubarak beard.

2) What gave you the impression that the majority disagreed with Imam Nawawi?
You provided a quote where a few ´ulama are mentioned, for the sake of showing that some disagreed with the Imam. That does not mean that there are not more who agreed with Nawawi.

3) Yes, there were those who disagreed, which is natural. However, most settled on the relied-upon (mu´tamad) opinion being that which was brought forth by Nawawi as such. I want to add a point, which is that the mu´tamad is not necessarily always the same as Imam Nawawi's personal preferences or opinions (ikhtiyarat), which sometimes differ from the mu´tamad. It is a common misunderstanding that the "opinion" of Nawawi is the mu´tamad; this is not correct. He sometimes disagrees with the mu´tamad based on other evidences etc. Rather his Minhaj is based on the book of Imam Rafi´i, who based his book on Imam Ghazali's.


Edit: I had not read your last post. Again, the tarjih of Nawawi in terms of what is the madhhab is not necessarily in regards to strength of evidence, but what represents the reliable madhhab. It is therefore argued that Shafi´i did not rule it to be haram, rather makruh.

And Allah knows best.

[Hbkj89D2]

Becareful what you imply towards the beloved scholars for they are the messengers of the messenger. They are among those who fear Allah the most according to an interpretation of an ayat and they are those who allow us to still live islam in times of corruption. Maybe you haven't met real scholars, because they are the most open and gentle people I've ever met.

Well after pondering what you said, I haven't implied anything, I merely stated what I experienced... And I have met a wide variety of scholars, sufi, salafi, deobandi etc.... And I have experienced the same with all.... And not all of them are open and gentle.... And that is a fact....

[verybigf]

Well after pondering what you said, I haven't implied anything, I merely stated what I experienced... And I have met a wide variety of scholars, sufi, salafi, deobandi etc.... And I have experienced the same with all.... And not all of them are open and gentle.... And that is a fact....

Balaghal ulaabi kamaalihi
Kashafaddujabi jamaalihi
Hasunat jami'oo khisaalihi
Sallu alayihi wa aalihi

He reached the heights because of his perfection
He removed the darkness because of his shining
All of his attributes are so beautiful
May peace by upon him and his progeny

If you remember the event from the days of Half-ul-Fazool.
Beloved Prophet(PBUH) was in his prayers in the courtyard of Holy Ka'aba.
A stranger came to the people of Makkah for justice because one of the members of H-u-F had wronged him.
Some one thought of pulling a fast one on beloved Prophet (PBUH) - he too was part of H-u-F.
He said that go to that man (pointing to beloved Prophet(PBUH)) - he'll get you justice.
This was a deliberate joke because the wrong doer was a tough person and beloved Prophet(PBUH) was known to be genteel.
The man nevertheless approached beloved Prophet(PBUH) and narrated his grievance.
Beloved Prophet(PBUH) went to the accused, accompanying the accuser, and said that as a partner to H-u-F you can not do what you have done. Give justice to this man.
And the accused did the needful.

Unfortunately I do not remember the nature of wrong doing.

Lesson?
Only Rasoolullah (PBUH) rises to the heights that you are expecting from all - even if you are talking about Scholars.

Please have some Husn-ad-dhunn for the Scholars. There have been cases where scholars have sacrificed their lives just for the purpose of stating the truth. It is not fair to expect all of them to rise to the same level.

And Allah(SWT) knows better.

[QysnZWB4]

Sidi SeekerOfGuidance,

2) What gave you the impression that the majority disagreed with Imam Nawawi?
You provided a quote where a few ´ulama are mentioned, for the sake of showing that some disagreed with the Imam. That does not mean that there are not more who agreed with Nawawi.

for your answers Brother Rifai. Shaykh Amjad Rasheed stated that the majority took the command to lengthen the beard as obligatory:

From: http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?...14618&CATE=414

"The majority of scholars have understood the above-mentioned hadiths—all of which command Muslims to grow full beards—in their immediately obvious sense, coming to the conclusion that it is unlawful to completely shave the beard. This position has been transmitted from the imam of our school, Imam Shafi`i (may Allah be pleased with him and have mercy on him), and a number of Shafi`i scholars—both early and late—have adopted it as their preferred position. Among the early Shafi`is who held this position are the two great imams, Qaffal al-Shashi and Abu `Abdullah al-Halimi. Among the late Shafi`is who held this position are the two imams, Ibn al-Rif`ah and Shihab al-Adhra`i."

[ViaplyVuple]

for your answers Brother Rifai. Shaykh Amjad Rasheed stated that the majority took the command to lengthen the beard as obligatory:

From: http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?...14618&CATE=414

"The majority of scholars have understood the above-mentioned hadiths—all of which command Muslims to grow full beards—in their immediately obvious sense, coming to the conclusion that it is unlawful to completely shave the beard. This position has been transmitted from the imam of our school, Imam Shafi`i (may Allah be pleased with him and have mercy on him), and a number of Shafi`i scholars—both early and late—have adopted it as their preferred position. Among the early Shafi`is who held this position are the two great imams, Qaffal al-Shashi and Abu `Abdullah al-Halimi. Among the late Shafi`is who held this position are the two imams, Ibn al-Rif`ah and Shihab al-Adhra`i."

I am not sure if by majority he (and may Allah preserve him) means of the Shafi´is or in general. Even if it is the majority of the Shafi´is, as you know it is not on top of the list for determining the mu´tamad of the school, as it is naturally not about numbers. It would be interesting to look into whether they made a distinction between trimming and shaving. But there is doubt whether Imam ash-Shafi´i (rah) considered it makruh or haram, as some of the ´ulama of the school mentioned.

wa'Allahu a´lam.

[QysnZWB4]

Sidi SeekerOfGuidance,

1) Yes, the mu´tamad is that the hukm for trimming is the same as for shaving.

Was this hukm derived from the following 'usul' expounded here by Shaykh al-Akiti:

http://www.livingislam.org/maa/mmsb_e.html

"Given that the Shafi’i school has the most lenient fiqhi position regarding the beard (in that it is not Haram to shave it off, even completely (but like leaving the khuff, above, it becomes Haram when one does this, intending to go against the Prophetic Example or thinking that the sunna of the non-Muslims is superior to ours), unlike the Hanafis, for instance, that to trim the beard when it is less than the minimum is Haram), our Imams stress the ‘unconditional’ nature of the dislikedness in trimming the beard; and because of the absolute Makruh, our school does not strictly set a minimum limit for the beard. This explains why scholars like al-Nawawi and Ibn Hajar, consider the opinions of those setting a minimum limit for the beard (such as al-Ghazali and later on, the Mufti of Zabid, al-Ashkhar (d. 903 H/1497), who followed one of Imam al-Adhra’i's conflicting opinions, set the minimum limit of the beard to be the throat or the ‘handful’, which basically means that what grows beyond the ‘handful’ or the ‘minimum limit’, so to speak, is no longer considered Makruh to cut off [Ba 'Alawi, Bughya al-Mustarshidin, 20]) to be even more lenient than what is already a lenient position vis-a-vis the four schools of fiqh. That is why the position of the school remains that it is unconditionally Makruh to trim or shave the beard in any way. "

If I haven't misunderstood, the Shafi'i fuqaha compensated for their initial leniency by ruling that any trimming whatsoever is Makruh?

And how does one reconcile the following without interpreting the Makruh to be Tahreem:

4) Imam Nawawi's ruling regarding shaving is Makruh, but his ruling regarding plucking a few grey hairs is Haram.
[/B]
http://www.sunnipath.com/library/Hadith/H0004P0297.aspx

for your clarifications.

[ViaplyVuple]

Sidi Seeker of Guidance,

It is important to understand the terminology used by the different fuqaha in order to ascertain what they mean. In the Shafi´i school, something may either be Haram or Makruh (Tanzihan). That which the Hanafi call Makruh Tahrimi falls within the Haram category. Hence if it was Makruh Tahrimi that was intended, it would have been called Haram in the Shafi´i school, but it was not.

I do not think that it is correct to say that the Fuqaha compensated for their leniency by not setting a limit. The fact is that the Prophet (salla'Allahu ´alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) commanded us to let our beards grow, and did not set a limit for it. Hence any sort of trimming is against the command of letting it grow. However, it was ruled to be one of recommendation and not of obligation. And there are a variety of possible reasons for this, such as the wording of the Hadith etc. The narration mentioning the Prophet (salla'Allahu ´alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) as trimming the beard is (very) weak, and therefore it cannot be used as a proof. While they may give us guidelines and insight into the application of ahadith, the actions of the Sahaba (radiya'Allahu ´anhum) are not Hujjah in themselves. While utilizing the narration of Sayyidina ´Abdallah Ibn ´Umar (radiya'Allahu ´anhu) I have seen the Hadith of the Prophet (salla'Allahu ´alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) trimming being mentioned; as if the narration of the Prophet (salla'Allahu ´alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) and the Sahaba (radiya'Allahu ´anhum) support each other.

As for Imam an-Nawawi (rahmatu'Allahi ´alayh) and the plucking of grey hairs, then I am afraid that I have not done sufficient research into this and therefore cannot give you his reasoning. But I would assume it would be relating to one of the following two scenarios:

1) The wording of the related ahadith are different; i.e. including words of recommendation and the other of obligation and so forth.
2) That they are unrelated and one having a different ´illa than the other; such as the prohibition of plucking being related to one trying to remove signs of old age, similar to the case of dying the beard black etc. Wa'Allahu a´lam.

wassalam