[logpogingg]

I don't think Shaykh Abd al-Fattah Abu Ghuddah belonged to any tariqah either.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Aminkaoo]

sometimes people and shuyukh don't make it habit of revealing which tariqa they are in. and why should they?

[womberte]

whats the argument behind saying the turuq are not valid for these times?

[casinoboneerer]

whats the argument behind saying the turuq are not valid for these times?

That is the point the real question to ask and it is what is contentious about public speaker such as Hamza Yusuf.

There are very strong outward differences btwn a tariqa follower/adherent like Shiekh Nuh and a public speak such as Hamza Yusuf.


Pls do not remove this thread to the In-depth section.

[Yartonbler]

There are very strong outward differences btwn a tariqa follower/adherent like Shiekh Nuh and a public speak such as Hamza Yusuf.

What does that mean?

[teridbruse]

What does that mean?

I'm wondering the same thing as well as if there is any reference for the claim that Shaykh Hamza or the Mauritanian Shuyuk have said that "Tariqa is not valid for our times". If there is, then I would appreciate some explanation of the statement.

[XqrkN4a0]

I remember hearing that statement, "the Turuq are not valid for our times", and I think it had to do with the breakdown of the community.

[enencephoth]

I remember hearing that statement, "the Turuq are not valid for our times", and I think it had to do with the breakdown of the community.

Someone who listens to Shaykh Hamza Yusuf explained it to me as follows.

Shaykh Hamza believes that the Sufi tariqas have in the past been sources of disunity among the Ummah. He also thinks that what the Ummah needs right now more than ever is unity. Hence, he discourages people from joining a tariqa.

I see the reasoning, but on the other side is the fact that for many people, taking baya in a tariqa is an extremely powerful means to self-recitifcation. I don't think people should be discouraged from availing themselves of this spiritual medicine.

[Gorlummm]

Salam alaikoum ;

Someone who listens to Shaykh Hamza Yusuf explained it to me as follows.

Shaykh Hamza believes that the Sufi tariqas have in the past been sources of disunity among the Ummah. He also thinks that what the Ummah needs right now more than ever is unity. Hence, he discourages people from joining a tariqa.

I see the reasoning, but on the other side is the fact that for many people, taking baya in a tariqa is an extremely powerful means to self-recitifcation. I don't think people should be discouraged from availing themselves of this spiritual medicine.

I agree with you ; if sufi tariqas have been sources of disunity than isn't it the same for the right schools ?

Salam alaikoum

Habib

[Ygxejxox]

Salam alaikoum ;

I agree with you ; if sufi tariqas have been sources of disunity than isn't it the same for the right schools ?

Salam alaikoum

Habib

I think the four Sunni schools of fiqh have been very harmonious from Imam Ghazali's time up till the present. There have been intense scholarly debates among them, but no religious persecution or wars.

[truck]

Someone who listens to Shaykh Hamza Yusuf explained it to me as follows.

Shaykh Hamza believes that the Sufi tariqas have in the past been sources of disunity among the Ummah. He also thinks that what the Ummah needs right now more than ever is unity. Hence, he discourages people from joining a tariqa.

I see the reasoning, but on the other side is the fact that for many people, taking baya in a tariqa is an extremely powerful means to self-recitifcation. I don't think people should be discouraged from availing themselves of this spiritual medicine.

:salam;

I agree with you, but i would agree with the statement that tariqas have been a source of disunity...

:ws;

[M1iFiNmC]

If this is true,

than the message that is being propagated is erroneous.

For what is being rejected is Tradition and continuity of naql/transmission. What is being rejected is Taqlid and this can open a flood gate for Bidda's.

Who or what is stop people from making bayat to one sheikh one month and another sheikh-the following month.

Who or what is to say that a particular Alim re-interprets certain islamic practices and deems them unfit for today's age. i.e. the law of inheritance, hudood ordinaces etc.

Rejection of tradition and tariqa is just what modernity wants. A world wherein individualism is promoted and adab, spiritual hierarchy and tradition are negated.

[GVsdJZ2H]

If this is true,

than the message that is being propagated is erroneous.

Rejection of tradition and tariqa is just what modernity wants. A world wherein individualism is promoted and adab, spiritual hierarchy and tradition are negated.

Asalaam Aalikum

This is exactly bidah brother. All this modernity and individualism is what western corrupting is doing to brothers insights. As Abdul Hakim Murad said in a nutshell you will either have 4 madhabs or 1.6billion madhabs. At least tariqahs unite groups, aside from the odd greivance or debate.

Also our tradition is our link to our past. The kuffar are working overtime to destroy our tradion and our past. Remove tradition and you remove Islam. Simple.

Walaikum Asalaam

[deermealec]

If this is true,

than the message that is being propagated is erroneous.

For what is being rejected is Tradition and continuity of naql/transmission. What is being rejected is Taqlid and this can open a flood gate for Bidda's.

Who or what is stop people from making bayat to one sheikh one month and another sheikh-the following month.

Who or what is to say that a particular Alim re-interprets certain islamic practices and deems them unfit for today's age. i.e. the law of inheritance, hudood ordinaces etc.

Rejection of tradition and tariqa is just what modernity wants. A world wherein individualism is promoted and adab, spiritual hierarchy and tradition are negated.

Remember that I only related what I heard from one person, who I met over seven years ago: take it with a pinch of salt.

I agree with the above, but it seems to me that there is some Divine Wisdom in the influence Hamza Yusuf is having.

For even if Shaykh Hamza is not in favour of people joining tariqas now, he does not consider them bid'a or kufr or shirk, as some sectors of our community do. He does think tasawwuf is a fundamental Islamic science, and he promotes the work of its great masters, including those who were members of tariqas. Moreoever, his own lack of association with a tariqa makes it easy for Salafis to relate to him (they often freak out when they hear of the very idea of a tariqa).

So I think that Shaykh Hamza's views are helping him act as a bridge between different sectors of the community. And many people who are in tariqas got there because of him.

At the end of the day, we can disagree with Shaykh Hamza, but we should not take a big stand against him. Shaykh Hamza is NOT launching a war against the tariqas, nor is he making his views about them a central stand of his teaching. He is not in any way hostile to the tariqas, he just has an opinion about their usefulness in our time. It's an odd opinion, but that is about it.

The tariqas seem to be benefitting from Shaykh Hamza's work.

[cargo_brad]

Before I took Sheikh Nuh's hand, I asked Sheikh Hamza personally in the last RIS conference if I should join a tariq or not.
His reply, non-verbatim, 'you have to decide'.

[XzBZB2UV]

Shaykh Hamza was asked about this the last time he was in NJ.
His answer, and I'm paraphrasing, was that what most people need is a plan of spiritual development and this does not necessarily have to be through a tariqa, though some people might be more in need of or better suited for it than others.

And before you go on about how this is mistaken, etc, consider this:

Shaykh Hamza lives here in the West and knows his community better than Shuyukh who live backhome and only meet the most dedicated young Muslims from the UK and America.

Also:

Taking a tariq is a very serious commitment and if neglected, can be disastrous for the murid.
Many of our brothers and sisters who want "be down" with tasawwuf don't even know their basic fiqh and many do not even pray consistently. What good is it for a person who is in such a state to take on further responsibilities and then fail to meet them?
As for more advanced students who are better prepared to benefit from having a tariqa, that is different from the generality of Western Muslims and is therefore the exception rather than the rule.

in fact, even Shaykh Nuh does not accept murids unless they are serious about doing the work of the tariq. And how many Muslims are?

[pipojambo]

in fact, even Shaykh Nuh does not accept murids unless they are serious about doing the work of the tariq. And how many Muslims are?

Maybe I am mistaken or my eyes deceived but I have seen Sheikh Nuk Keller take bayat and accept mureeds in masses. It is not possible to know all these new initiates/mureeds and there level of committment in the deen. They are literally too many souls to know and the sheikh more than likely knows that. Thats why probably his bona fide mureeds are in Jordan.


The real question is not whether Tariqas are valid or not but whether Tariqa centered Values are compatable with Modern man?

-Individualism v. Authority

-Freedom of thought v. Taqleed

-Indivual Paths i.e. I make my own destiny, thoughts etc. v. Having a Spiritual Guide (Shiekh) "He who has no Shiekh, there Shaytan becomes their Sheikh"

-Demorcacy v. Spiritual Hierarchy

-Rationalism v. Intelligence (to discriminate btwn right and wrong is Intelligence and Revelation through Initiation via Tariqa nurtures Intelligence)

-Empricism v. Revelation and Continuity of Tradition

-Evolution (Progress) v. Devolution of Man (Man as a Fallen Being, made for Heaven but Temporarly on Earth longing for Heaven)

[T1ivuQGS]

Asalaam Aalikum

This is exactly bidah brother. All this modernity and individualism is what western corrupting is doing to brothers insights. As Abdul Hakim Murad said in a nutshell you will either have 4 madhabs or 1.6billion madhabs. At least tariqahs unite groups, aside from the odd greivance or debate.

Also our tradition is our link to our past. The kuffar are working overtime to destroy our tradion and our past. Remove tradition and you remove Islam. Simple.

Walaikum Asalaam

No disrespect to Sheikh Hamza's opinion.

But i believe that Tariqas unite the Muslims, such as the Sufis who led the Jihad in the Caucasas and in Africa etc... even in Iraq now, they are being led by the Naqshbandis and Qadiris and other Sufis and its because of the tariqas that many people fought for Islam against the kufr.

So i would say that Allhumdulilah tariqas unite the Muslims, and thats what we need, not the other way round.

[no02rSx2]

Thats why probably his bona fide mureeds are in Jordan.

This statement is wrong akhi. The overwhelming majority of his "bona fide" mureeds are not in Jordan. Sheikh Nuh has said that living in close proximity to himself often is a veil to the mureed that prevents him from fully benefitting from the Sheikh because you start to take him for granted and lose the esteem that one should have for the Sheikh. There are plenty of mureeds that would drop all that they are doing and move to Amman if Sheikh Nuh said to do. But for some it is better to live away from the Sheikh for one reason or another. And these are some of the most advanced Murids in the entire tariqa.

[Erexecike]

This statement of shaykh hamza needs some sharh from him.
It's a bit unclear.