[duexjepevef]

Not everyone who criticises Mufti Taqi Usmani is the enemy of Islam...they might be on the truth and the Mufti might be wrong. My understanding is that the Mufti allows Islamic Banking intending to make it a step towards true halal...for he admits that it is not really halal now. So his intentions are noble, however the criticisers are saying this is not a step towards halal rather it is a step towards subverting the halal and making the haram into acceptable or 'Islamic'.

Perhaps it is also the way the criticisors word their criticizm.

For example, Mufti Ebrahim Desai does not wholy agree as well. However, his answer is very respectful.

Here it is -> LINK

[oyymoss]

Maybe some of them do misrepresent him, but not everyone. I have seen quotes by the mufti where he admits some of the financial instruments used by 'Islamic banks' and certified as based on 'sunnah' are in fact trade patterns not financial instruments.

For instance in the time of the sahaba a type of selling included the seller informing the buyer the cost price of the product being sold, plus any transport and other costs incurred including the mark up or profit margin. The buyer could then decide to either buy or to refrain.

The above sunnah way has been converted today into the Islamic Bank practice of the borrower selecting a house to buy, the bank agreeing to buy it on their behalf, and then re-selling the house to the borrower at a much higher price. These are 2 contracts in 1, and such practices are not allowed. The bank buying it at a lower price and selling at a higher price on credit is not 1 contract it is 2, and this has very little resemblance to the practice by the sahaba. Is it halal, no, but Islamic bankers are selling it as 'halal'.

What should Muslims do? If they refuse to join in, they lose their wealth to bankers anyway. Maybe we should refuse to play by their rules and reject the whole fiat money banking system. We should get together and build our own halal economic way with real gold and silver currency. We should be able to do it if we get together and talk about it, spread the knowledge and do something about it.

Though I fail to get the hint as to how Mufti Taqi Usmani (DB) is in error here but I do appreciate that you have things to add on it. Economics and finance are not my cup of tea but I am very much concerned with them. Kindly contribute to this thread and also consider if you can start a blog about these matters. This is essentially and desperately needed.

[warrgazur]

Maybe some of them do misrepresent him, but not everyone. I have seen quotes by the mufti where he admits some of the financial instruments used by 'Islamic banks' and certified as based on 'sunnah' are in fact trade patterns not financial instruments.

For instance in the time of the sahaba a type of selling included the seller informing the buyer the cost price of the product being sold, plus any transport and other costs incurred including the mark up or profit margin. The buyer could then decide to either buy or to refrain.

The above sunnah way has been converted today into the Islamic Bank practice of the borrower selecting a house to buy, the bank agreeing to buy it on their behalf, and then re-selling the house to the borrower at a much higher price. These are 2 contracts in 1, and such practices are not allowed. The bank buying it at a lower price and selling at a higher price on credit is not 1 contract it is 2, and this has very little resemblance to the practice by the sahaba. Is it halal, no, but Islamic bankers are selling it as 'halal'.

What should Muslims do? If they refuse to join in, they lose their wealth to bankers anyway. Maybe we should refuse to play by their rules and reject the whole fiat money banking system. We should get together and build our own halal economic way with real gold and silver currency. We should be able to do it if we get together and talk about it, spread the knowledge and do something about it.

I am going to forward this to my husband who is familiar with Islamic Finance as that is what he is studying right now.

[Aztegjpl]

Which one did you buy - Urdu or English? I'd like to compare with my copies -please give the full title.
Wassalam

aoa,
english one. final chapter is chapter 51:The Frontier and Administrative Divisions of the state

[Aniplinipsync]

Maybe some of them do misrepresent him, but not everyone. I have seen quotes by the mufti where he admits some of the financial instruments used by 'Islamic banks' and certified as based on 'sunnah' are in fact trade patterns not financial instruments.

For instance in the time of the sahaba a type of selling included the seller informing the buyer the cost price of the product being sold, plus any transport and other costs incurred including the mark up or profit margin. The buyer could then decide to either buy or to refrain.

The above sunnah way has been converted today into the Islamic Bank practice of the borrower selecting a house to buy, the bank agreeing to buy it on their behalf, and then re-selling the house to the borrower at a much higher price. These are 2 contracts in 1, and such practices are not allowed. The bank buying it at a lower price and selling at a higher price on credit is not 1 contract it is 2, and this has very little resemblance to the practice by the sahaba. Is it halal, no, but Islamic bankers are selling it as 'halal'.

What should Muslims do? If they refuse to join in, they lose their wealth to bankers anyway. Maybe we should refuse to play by their rules and reject the whole fiat money banking system. We should get together and build our own halal economic way with real gold and silver currency. We should be able to do it if we get together and talk about it, spread the knowledge and do something about it.

aoa brother,

appreciate your feedback. however i dont see mufti taqi uthmani in error here. i am not well-versed in finance so we shall wait for sister sudoku's response.

edit: perhaps the lack of choice given by the banks is what is problematic. however reading the defence by sister sudoku's husband we must see that we do not understand what is legislated fully. in sha Allah a competent scholar (or perhaps mufti taqi himself) will address the issue for us to understand better.

[jakitula]

I am going to forward this to my husband who is familiar with Islamic Finance as that is what he is studying right now.

here is the reply,

***

Assalamu Alaikum,

The example given by the brother is incorrect. The transaction referred by the brother is Murabaha. This form of sale is essentially any normal sale. The only difference is that the seller discloses his cost price to the purchaser. The financing model using murabaha sale which is being used by the banks is called "Murabaha Financing". It is indeed an intricate financing model and lack of it complete understanding can lead to assertions such as presented by the brother.

For ease sake, the brother has argued that Murabaha financing which Mufti Taqi Saheb endorses has two transactions in one. This is very far from the reality. Moreover, the connotation of Safaqatayn fis Safaqa (two sales in one) is also not normally understood by laymen. So it is indeed possible for people to misunderstand the issue.

Safaqarayn fis Safaqa means that two transactions are made such that completion of one is interwoven or dependant on the other. Yes, it is true that some financial houses have made errors in the implementation of this model where two transactions get lumped up into one contract. But Mufti Taqi Saheb does not endorse such transactions. In our case the Safaqarayn fis Safaqa would be visible if I were to approach the bank and request them to buy a house and sell to me on deferred payments through Murabaha, and the bank agrees but in the following manner :

"We will buy the house XYZ at $800 if you agree to purchase the house XYZ at $1000 from us."

In this case we have a couple of problems.
a. The purchase of the house is dependant on you entering in the agreement to buy the house from the bank.
b. You enter into a murabaha deal with the bank while the bank does not even possess the item. This is against Shariah as well. (Bay' ma lam yaqbidh)

Mufti Taqi Saheb in fact cautions against such practice. Hereunder is the excerpt from his "Introduction to Islamic Finance"

"3. In some cases, sale of commodity to the client is effected before the commodity is acquired from the supplier. This mistake is invariably committed in transactions where all the documents of murabahah are signed at one time without taking into account various stages of the murabahah. Some institutions have only one murabahah agreement which is signed at the time of disbursement of money, or in some cases, at the time of approving the facility. This is totally against the basic principles of murabahah. It has already been explained in this article that the murabahah arrangement practiced by the banks is a package of different contracts which come into play one after another at their respective stages. These stages have been fully highlighted earlier while discussing the concept of murabahah financing. Without observing this basic feature of murabahah financing, the whole transaction turns into an interest-bearing loan. Merely changing the nomenclature does not make it lawful in the eyes of Shari‘ah. " An Introduction to Islamic Finance, Pg. 105

At the same time, Murabaha Financing is not even the basic financing tool in Islamic Finance. Mufti Taqi Saheb mentions this at the beginning of his chapter on Murabaha:

"It should never be overlooked that, originally, murabahah is not a mode of financing. It is only a device to escape from “interest” and not an ideal instrument for carrying out the real economic objectives of Islam. Therefore, this instrument should be used as a transitory step taken in the process of the Islamization of the economy, and its use should be restricted only to those cases where mudarabah or musharakah are not practicable." ibid. Pg. 72

He continues,

"The second important point is that the murabahah transaction does not come into existence by merely replacing the word of “interest” by the words of “profit” or “mark-up”. Actually, murabahah as a mode of finance, has been allowed by the Shari‘ah scholars with some conditions. Unless these conditions are fully observed, murabahah is not permissible. In fact, it is the observance of these conditions which can draw a clear line of distinction between an interest-bearing loan and a transaction of murabahah. If these conditions are neglected, the transaction becomes invalid
according to Shari‘ah. " ibid.

Finally, There are indeed issues in the model presented by Mufti Taqi Saheb where more academic discussion is needed. However these are not such that a person without a background in the field can engage in. Ulama constantly work and review these issues on a continuous basis. It is hoped that the Financial Houses in this booming economic sector will also engage with Ulama in earnest efforts to achieve full Shariah Compliancy in Financing.

[KernJetenue]

Thanks sister.

I searched for Murabaha and got 43 threads on it at SF. Thankfully all of them have very few posts - some having only one. And too many of them are closed. One conclusion can be drawn from this - we are talking about interesting things that are not completely sorted out by now. This is expected because we the miserable people who bear the burden of carrying forward the teachings of Islam have not been doing our duty. I hope competent people will turn their attention to these matters. I'll take this opportunity to thank young MH who has started getting involved in these matters. I also thank Allah(SWT) for giving us personalities like Hazrat Taqi Usmani Sahab(DB) and sister Sudoku's husband, and others who are already doing the needful. We can not thank Allah(SWT) enough for His favours.

[aLZ9zKsO]

I think it will please you to know that Mufti Desai has been holding a conference called "Shariah Compliant Business Campaign" for the last 10-11 years. Mostly it is all business men or those who in the financial field. Mufti saheb brings up different contemporary topics in business and economics field. This year's campaign is to be this May, .

Sorry for the off topic posts, br mh.

[katespepach]

ws,
yes.i would like some books/lectures outlining the human rights charter given by islam, rights of non-muslims in a muslim country, rights of zindeeq in a muslim country,a detailed study on the prohibition of interest and usury and the permissiveness of the Islamic banking in pakistan (only a few days ago i was made aware that mufti taqi uthmani's endorsement of islamic banking is basically halal riba. i had no solid answer) and some basics or advanced study of chain of transmittors (how the saheeh sitta and other islamic texts make their way through to us without error).
i hope you realize why i am asking.

The core of the conflict resides in our conceptualization of Islam as either a complete, distinct System (Way of Life, Deen, ideology) or a "religion" which can and/or must conform to other Systems (namely, manmade ideologies).

The Muslim Ummah MUST resolve this conflict within ourselves in order for us to gain Allah's favor.


(TMQ 13:11) " Lo! Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in themselves."
Many ulama are not trained in or are somehow unaware of this conflict so that they have adopted positions on issues which render Islam a "religion" which is to conform to the superior status of some other System.

As a result, Islam is pidgeonholed as a "religion" and fiqh is approached to conform to existing System to which Islam can or must conform.
In particular, this is evident in economic issues wherein fuqaha have adopted rulings so Islam conforms with capitalism, rather than Islam being a sustainable System with it's own economic system.

[InsManKV]

I think it will please you to know that Mufti Desai has been holding a conference called "Shariah Compliant Business Campaign" for the last 10-11 years. Mostly it is all business men or those who in the financial field. Mufti saheb brings up different contemporary topics in business and economics field. This year's campaign is to be this May, .

Sorry for the off topic posts, br mh.

I suppose it is not off-topic because Shariah Compliant Business is in fact an answer to the ills of secular, liberal and modern ribah based business.

And indeed this news is very pleasant to me. Business, economy and finance are not my fields of interests but we Muslims are under represented in these fields and thus I have a rather overwhelming desire that our brothers and sisters should be discussing such matters here with more vigor and larger participation. I shall thoroughly enjoy being an ignorant by stander. I personally am very glad and absolutely at peace to take my deen from the Ulama. Hence theological hair splitting and deep philosophical analysis, the main stay of many of the forums, looks unattractive to me. Issues raised by modern social, economic, financial, scientific and military environment are, on the other hand, the things that I shall like to be discussed more here. That is where we can make real contributions. This is where we got to take up some responsibility and this is where we should be little more courageous and assertive.

[karkinadze]

The core of the conflict resides in our conceptualization of Islam as either a complete, distinct System (Way of Life, Deen, ideology) or a "religion" which can and/or must conform to other Systems (namely, manmade ideologies).

The Muslim Ummah MUST resolve this conflict within ourselves in order for us to gain Allah's favor.


(TMQ 13:11) "


Many ulama are not trained in or are somehow unaware of this conflict so that they have adopted positions on issues which render Islam a "religion" which is to conform to the superior status of some other System.

As a result, Islam is pidgeonholed as a "religion" and fiqh is approached to conform to existing System to which Islam can or must conform.
In particular, this is evident in economic issues wherein fuqaha have adopted rulings so Islam conforms with capitalism, rather than Islam being a sustainable System with it's own economic system.

We posted nearly at the same time - I did not have the benefit of reading you post.

My favourite Tradition in this context is the Tradition of Dates. This is the one where the blessed modesty of beloved Prophet(PBUH) did not like the act of rubbing male flowers with the female flowers and hence he forbade honourable Companions (RA) to carry forward this act. When pollination did not take place there was no crop that year. After that beloved Prophet(PBUH) declared that you know your matters better than me. This Tradition has many significant lessons in modern times. Number one we the modern educated are supposed to submit completely to the demands of shariah even if our knowledge of micro-biology goes against the dicta of Shariah. This is what honourable Companions (RA) did. Secondly the Ulama should be so kind to give the due credit and delegate responsibility to the experts in modern branches of knowledge - of course after suitable testing as beloved Prophet(PBUH) did. Finally our scholars of modern discipline should understand that if they are given any freedom by the Ulama to deal with matters involving modern issues then they have to make all the effort to be Shariah compliant.

Wassalam

[hotelhyatt]

aoa,

Sorry for the off topic posts, br mh.

not at all. i asked the question actually in the first place. time to read Mufti Taqi Uthmani's 'An Introduction to Islamic finance'. jazak Allah khair to your husband for the well-worded answer. someone should also ask sh. abu hajira to cover it on Qafila. that man is eloquent ma sha Allah.
The core of the conflict resides in our conceptualization of Islam as either a complete, distinct System (Way of Life, Deen, ideology) or a "religion" which can and/or must conform to other Systems (namely, manmade ideologies).

The Muslim Ummah MUST resolve this conflict within ourselves in order for us to gain Allah's favor.


(TMQ 13:11) "
Lo! Allah changeth not the condition of a folk until they (first) change that which is in themselves."

Many ulama are not trained in or are somehow unaware of this conflict so that they have adopted positions on issues which render Islam a "religion" which is to conform to the superior status of some other System.

As a result, Islam is pidgeonholed as a "religion" and fiqh is approached to conform to existing System to which Islam can or must conform.
In particular, this is evident in economic issues wherein fuqaha have adopted rulings so Islam conforms with capitalism, rather than Islam being a sustainable System with it's own economic system. jazak Allah khair for these precise and effective words.

My favourite Tradition in this context is the Tradition of Dates. This is the one where the blessed modesty of beloved Prophet(PBUH) did not like the act of rubbing male flowers with the female flowers and hence he forbade honourable Companions (RA) to carry forward this act. When pollination did not take place there was no crop that year. After that beloved Prophet(PBUH) declared that you know your matters better than me. This Tradition has many significant lessons in modern times. Number one we the modern educated are supposed to submit completely to the demands of shariah even if our knowledge of micro-biology goes against the dicta of Shariah. This is what honourable Companions (RA) did. Secondly the Ulama should be so kind to give the due credit and delegate responsibility to the experts in modern branches of knowledge - of course after suitable testing as beloved Prophet(PBUH) did. Finally our scholars of modern discipline should understand that if they are given any freedom by the Ulama to deal with matters involving modern issues then they have to make all the effort to be Shariah compliant.

Wassalam that was a very insightful post. Jazak Allah khair

[Jambjanatan]

An 'educated' Princess' uneducated opinions

[Friend_Joe]

as much as we all feel obliged to refute a modernist who wanders here and tries to 'educate' us with his (flawed) understanding of Islam we must also seek to find places where they gather and speak about their frustrations with Islam and how it does not let them do things their nafs demands (all under the guise of 'mullahs have hijcaked Islam - real Islam isnt like this - etc)

These forums and websites I have linked below are examples of how the secular liberal extremist's mind works. Should help in picking apart their theories and educating them should one wish to do so.
It is also a good place if you wish to tell them what actual Islam is and why is it authenticated.

it is up to you how you defend Islam against secular extremism. but do something.

here are some websites which are frequented by them and some example articles that show there is need for work to be done there:

http://www.chowrangi.com/how-long-sh...is-family.html (misconceptions about Tableeghi jamaat and tableegh in general)
http://www.chowrangi.com/good-treatm...-of-islam.html (ditto)
http://www.chowrangi.com/the-importa...-in-islam.html (a misguided article belittling Islamic education)
http://www.chowrangi.com/wazeefas.html (people educated in tasawwuf would like to read this)
http://www.chowrangi.com/women-agent-of-devil.html (Scholars portrayed as misogynists)
http://www.chowrangi.com/should-fund...oking-oil.html (this should be answered)
http://www.chowrangi.com/fatwa-on-mu...f-website.html (music declared halal by this person because there is 'nothing in the Qur'an to prove otherwise'...get the hint people?)

Here is a secular forum where Islam is mocked openly:
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/all-views...g-behayaa.html

Here is anger and hatred for 'mullahs' spilling over on another forum:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=457364

and here are some good topics to engage these people (peacefully):
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=451

[Verriasana]

Lal Masjid Operation: A factual analysis of its background, the operation itself and the aftermath

[Bondjrno]

May Allah (SWT) grant you a reward according to His Glory.
You know this was constantly on my mind and even yesterday I made my intention once more to do it.
May Allah (SWT) bless you.

[MartZubok]

May Allah (SWT) grant you a reward according to His Glory.
You know this was constantly on my mind and even yesterday I made my intention once more to do it.
May Allah (SWT) bless you.

Ameen to all duas, esp the last.
spread the word. email it, share it.

[BipiewExifese]

Used here.

[harriettvanders]

Used here.

aoa,
some paragraphs are humbly requested. and a bit of space in between them too if you don't mind. its a very detailed article.

[estelle]

aoa,
some paragraphs are humbly requested. and a bit of space in between them too if you don't mind. its a very detailed article.

Indeed I got to do some formatting. Later, IA.