[zlZ95pjt]

Not a single line of Hazrath desai sahab's article looks like "that he have any self respect attitude". From the article, I'm thinking hazrath's taqwa is so vast and he doesn't have any hesitation in explaining the haq to Ummah.

The words which you have quoted carries no weight in any way. Don't use these words from next time.

We are we( that includes all tableeghies, khanaqas and madaris of haq).

One must read the full thread then comment.
Brother xs11ax;

We have missed here. There are two issues here, one is the booklet by those authors, second is article by mufti desai sahib quoted by these authors. And brother xs11ax replied

i apologise if i misunderstood. forgive me.

[weightpillsnow]

One thing i have found on this forum and generally in our day to day lives that everyone has got advise for the tablighees!! everyone else is either not in need of advise/islah or admonition or they mashallah have perfected their deen because they are bayat to a shaykh or study some uloom of deen so in default they are on haqq and are not in need of either of the above!

But atleast us tabligees can be proud of one thing which is doing amaal on this hadith

"The Messenger Muhammad (saw) said: ‘Ad deenu naseeha, ad deenu naseeha, ad deenu naseeha’ (Sahih Muslim) – The Deen is advice, the deen is advice, the deen is advice.

Assalamu alaykum

True!!!

We hear advices every where. Tons and Tons of them. But on a public forum we must reply.

[iouiyyut]

One must read the full thread then comment.


And brother xs11ax replied

I apologise if i misunderstood. forgive me.
What I understood from the article as well as from posts that the whole article was written by Moulana Ahmed desai Sahab

Question 1 . Who are the authors of the complete booklet then?
Question 2. It says
Mujlisul Ulama of South Africa? Is not Mufti Ahmed Desai sahab also the member of this ulema majlis?
Respected ulemas(author) of these booklet might have taken the permission of Hazrath Ahmed Desai Sahab to publish his advices before publishing?

[ffdfriendforurr]

Assalamu alaykum

From the booklet what I judge is that these group is like rebellion group.

I quote from that booklet:

It serves no purpose to cite Mufti Mahmood (rahmatullah alayh). We do not agree with his views on this issue. Furthermore, while we respect and honour Hadhrat Mufti Mahmood (rahmatullah alayh), we do not follow him.

[h98hhYxM]

Respected Ahmed Shareef Sahab,

The ikhtelaaf among the haqs is not new, its all about the matter of their own taqwa among themselves that's why they differ among themselves is some issues
You can see, what they write
Furthermore, while we respect and honour Hadhrat Mufti Mahmood (rahmatullah alayh), we do not follow him. Our views are based on Shar'i dalaa-il, not personal opinion which seeks to overshadow the Shariah. We do not cite our Shaikh, Hadhrat Maulana Masihullah (rahmatullah alayh) as our daleel. The Shariah is explicit and emphatic in its prohibition of female's khurooj. Those who are encouraging this women's mass movement are extremely short-sighted. They too are telling that they do not cite their own shaikh in matter of Shariah ruling.

Ikhtilaaf is not new among our haq ulemas.

I would further put one example what Mufti ebrahim desai sahab hold views regarding mufti taqi usman sahab regarding the issue of Videography
We have studied the document in reference and, to an extent, agree with its contents. Prior to probing into the academic issues, it is of paramount importance to understand that the view of Mufti Taqi Uthmani Sahib (Madda Zilluhu) expressed in this document, are those driven by Taqwa and academic honesty. Though we may concur on some issues and differ on others, these are only our academic differences. We hold Hazrat Mufti Sahib in the highest esteem and in fact continue to implore Allah Ta’ala to keep his presence over us for a long time, Aameen.

[invest7manager]

Assalamu alaykum

The tone in that booklet is not ikhtilaaf, it is mukhaalifath. I have doubt about how many among those writers have spent time in jamaat.

Secondly Moulana Mahamoodul hasan RA is not an ordinary personality. They are demanding sharaee daleel from him. Moulana has seen the TJ work closely.
Let me recall a saying from Moulana Ali Mian Nadvi "the ijtihaad in a particle part of deen is best done (rather it is their right) by the people who are really INTO the work".
I cannot go into a madrasah or a khanqah and start commenting "this should be like this, that should not be like that". People with sabr and hilm may tolerate it but they have the right to call me a fool.

[sitescools]

Assalamu alaykum

The tone in that booklet is not ikhtilaaf, it is mukhaalifath. I have doubt about how many among those writers have spent time in jamaat.

Secondly Moulana Mahamoodul hasan RA is not an ordinary personality. They are demanding sharaee daleel from him. Moulana has seen the TJ work closely.
Let me recall a saying from Moulana Ali Mian Nadvi "the ijtihaad in a particle part of deen is best done (rather it is their right) by the people who are really INTO the work".
I cannot go into a madrasah or a khanqah and start commenting "this should be like this, that should not be like that". People with sabr and hilm may tolerate it but they have the right to call me a fool.

1) We cannot further comment on the article till the time when we actually get those questions which was asked by some xyz so that this article has been published.
2) From which part of the article it is reflecting that they are asking Hazrath Mufti Mehmood Hasan sahab to show sharaee daleel ?

[newpiknicker]

Assalamu alaykum

Just carefully read this.
Our views are based on Shar'i dalaa-il, not personal opinion which seeks to overshadow the Shariah. We do not cite our Shaikh, Hadhrat Maulana Masihullah (rahmatullah alayh) as our daleel. "Our shaykh, your shaykh"? is it ikhtilaaf or mukhaalifath.

[Mappaindy]

Wow! Everybody has some advice or the other to give to the tablighi jama't. Hilarious!

[syncFisee]

the advice really seemed to have touched some raw nerves.

Some of the attitudes apparent in this thread provides a glimpse into how brothers, from whichever deeni effort, tend to react when receiving advice from ulama. This includes the typical allergic reaction to sincere advice, through deflection onto others: “So and so is much more needy of advice than myself so please leave me alone and focus on others.”

Or the paranoid, “How come everybody keeps giving advice to me only” whilst oblivious to same ulamas efforts against corruption in other deeni efforts.

Or the self-sufficient, “Hey, I’ve already received such advice so thanks but no thanks” and “Me getting advice! How hilarious!”

But it gets much worse with the unsubstantiated allegations/slanders, judgements on alleged lifestyle, insinuations of holier than thou attitude, and other ad-hominem attacks on a Mufti who has been involved in every effort you can think of whether it be Tabligh, Madaris, Jihad, Tasawwuf, and who is as well-placed as anyone else to deliver such Naseeha.

I’ve made many more posts regarding fake and corrupt sufis, and extremist Jihadis, but I’ve yet to receive a reply such as “Hey! how come people only make posts regarding corrupt sufis or jihadis, but not people who are doing tabligh jamaat.”

All these reactions only serve to prove the real existence of such maladies whose rectification was the purpose of the advice.

The Mufti was correct in saying: “It is a fatal blunder to misinterpret the advice and admonition of sincere of friends.”

Absolutely fatal.

Before brothers comfortably resume their sideways insidious attacks and insinuations, here is more information on the one who has been the subject of such flesh-eating present in this thread, which apart from a couple of brothers, didn’t seem to make anyone who had time to post here bat an eyelid, or at least object:

From sister mmb786:

Ml desai is a senior khalifah of moulana maseehullah khan sahib (R.A). After completing his studies he was set to go to America and become a lawyer, he went to india for some reason and visted ML maseehullah R.A, who made a great impression on his life. Ml maseehullah (R.A) took an immense liking to him and asked him to stay on and do his aalim course… and ml stayed, completed his aalim course and got
khillafat.

Ml is very strict on the shariah (who doesn’ know that!) and he is an extremely busy man, he does ALOT of deen work, runs thousands of maktabs and madaaris throughout the world, writes and translates loads of literature, has to reply to dozens of correspondence’s etc. Every day… and yet he finds time to personally cook a pot of food for the poor every morning and make it into sandwiches, the beggers of the
town know ml’s home and come to fetch their sandwiches when they are hungry. Forget the beggers, ml feeds the wild birds who visit his yard everyday and he has soo much of taqwa and concern for the creation that when he goes to Durban and Johannesburg (which he does regularly) he gives the responsibility of feeding the birds every morning to his neighbor so that when those birds who are accustomed to finding their food come, they do not leave his yard disappointed! :Subh: remember we not talking about a guy who has time to sit on his porch and count the stars, this is a man drowning in work!!!

Ml only sleeps 2 hours per night and spends the rest of the night in ibaadah, my friend told me that she saw the musallah which ml uses to perform nafl salaah on, and that musallah has been used soo much that there are literally HOLES by the feet, hands and forehead places on that musallah! Also ml fasts every day except twice a week for years, unless he is travelling or seriously unwell etc.

He lives extremely simple and is very humble, wears and patches his clothes until he can’t use them anymore. ML's entire house is bare of all unnecessary furniture (including couches and kitchen units!) every
single room in his house (except his bedroom) resembles a library, almost the entire house, including the passage, has shelves from ceiling to floor and is lined with kitaabs upon kitaabs. He generally walks to the masjid for salaah. Eid nights he remains awake the entire night in ibaadah and deeni work. Also ml is constantly conscience of death, an example is: someone asked him why do you travel by car when going to Durban and Johannesburg (a 10 – 12 hour journey by car) instead of taking a flight? He replied that he won’t do so becoz he wouldn’t like maut to find him whilst in the plane amongst the kuffaaar and their liquor and nudity etc. he rather take the long journey and be safe! And from brother Mathbooh:

Moulana is a 72 year old,South African(3rd generation iirc) aalim who is a senior khalifah of Ml.Maseehullah Khan Sherwani(r.a.).Moulana gained his initial prominance due to Ml.Maseehullah(r.a.) fondness of him. Moulana was one of the most hard working students in the madressah, completed his studies and was given Ijazah in a very short period of time. Moulana has been involved in various branches of deen. Moulana is a sheikh of tasawwuf,was/is involved in the ta'leem of children,maktab and other levels iirc, also through his awake magazine and al-haq,al-majlis and other publications. Moulana has compiled plenty of books on different speres of deen, including fatawa, tasawwuf, ibadat, responses to baatil, fiqh, aqeedah and many more.

Moulana was also involved in jihad, running jihad camps in the mountains of the Eastern Cape province of South Africa,and he had links to several of the afghan mujahideen. I am not sure if he spent time in afghanistan just as an observer or if he was active in the actual jihad against the soviets. Moulana is a vocifirous votary of the caucus mujahideen. Moulana also runs a humanitarian organisation known as SOSH/servants of suffering humanity. Moulana also runs an extensive project which is known as the maktab project. It is run in many countries, primarily in bangladesh and impoverished muslim communities that have little deen and where christian missioneries are active. In 1999, there were 600 maktab madrasahs run by moulana. I don't know about the present situation.

It was during one of moulanas visits to the madrasahs in bangladesh that Moulana was arrested and imprisoned in Bangladesh by the CID of Bangladesh and the CIA. Moulana was improsened for 6 months without being formally charged and he was stuck in Bangladesh for another 6 months as his passport was confiscated. During Moulanas detention, he was continously interrogated for 29 days by CID,during which sleep depravation e.t.c. were employed. He was thereafter interrogated by the CIA.During the CIA interrogations he was taken to an elite suburb of Dakha. Amongst the things he was accused of were: Financing al-qaida and Usama Bin Laden; Owning diamond mines with Usama; funding jihad throughn his 'diamond mines'; conspiring to overthrow the bangali government, assasinating intellectuals, secularists, senior millitary officials e.t.c.; Being part of Usama's command structure; establishing 421 jihad training units in Bangladesh e.t.c..During Ml. improsenment, he had the full support of the S.A. govt. and the embassy in Delhi. Embassy officials were sent to report on his well-being and to liase with his legal team and inspect his madrasahs.

Moulana gained a lot of stick during the late 90's from other deobandis. Moulana was involved in a controversy.He was part of a fact finding mission(of his organisation) to afghanistan. His report on the taliban was critical.He was critical of their 'wastage of food', misappropriation of funds, tolerance of bid'ah, acceptance of bay'ah of the shiahs, allowing televisions to be transported through afghanistan,'forsaking the salafi mujahideen on the pretext of them being salafi' e.t.c. However, in 2000/2001 iirc, when the taliban 'corrected' some of these issues he praised them. Moulana has travel restrictions placed on him.

Moulana is very strict in his fatawa and very harsh in his language. It is not appropriate for laymen to desrespect ulama/certain ulama on the basis of his writings.

May Allah unite the ulama on haq.

was salam

[unlomarma]

i wont ask you the muftis name as i doubt you would want to give it. i will send an email to mufti desai asking him about the accusations.

Did you contact the respected Mufti?

[Ervntewc]

Assalamu alaykum

Just carefully read this.


"Our shaykh, your shaykh"? is it ikhtilaaf or mukhaalifath.

Hazrath

You have misunderstood what the respected mufti (original author) said about the words which you quoted.

I was just thinking what the questioner had wrote to the majlis of ulema of South Africa so that they wrote these words.
Hmmm..
Mufti Mehmood hassan Sahab also agreed upon the views of Ladies jamaat.... Like this ..No
Mufti Mehmood Hasan Sahab , one of the ulema of deoband, too have good views regarding ladies jamaat.....

Now they wrote these words
"Our views are based on Shar'i dalaa-il, not personal opinion which seeks to overshadow the Shariah. We do not cite our Shaikh, Hadhrat Maulana Masihullah (rahmatullah alayh) as our daleel."

Its not a matter of their shiekh and our sheikh. The Majlis of Ulema of SA are giving them answer that, we don't use our shiakh words as reference, we use quran and hadees. So why you are quoting Mufti Mehmood Hasan sahab personal views? They meant that hazrath...

[Shark&Nike]

Assalamu alaykum

Bhai, read the booklet once again (unbiased against me).

[bWxNFI3c]

Bro SeekerOfGuidance, you clearly haven't read my posts on TJ specific threads posted earlier on SF, if you had, you wouldn't have said that. May Allah SWT grant us guidance and keep us on it. Aameen.

[DurryVony]

I am honestly having difficulty in understanding what is the matter with the first post wherein Ml Ahmad Sadek is quoted. Ml is just giving advice for someone who wishes to join TJ. I've heard more or less the same thing from my dad many a times, who is a TJ from the 70s.

[pipojambo]

Typical knee jerk responses by some when given advices. We need to get out of this mentality of my shaikh, my khanka, my TJ, my madrassa, etc... Until we don't start looking at the bigger picture of our deen, our Islam, our Ummah then these petty differences will remain. Allah guide us all.

Mufti AS Desai حفظه الل has been giving naseeha on not only TJ but all other fields of deen for decades and not once has it gone against the "usools" of that work. As sister sudoku pointed out, the advice for TJ is in complete accordance with the usools as laid down by the Hazratjees (Allah have mercy on them all).

Nevertheless, I just wanted to point out that instead of looking at MY MY MY let us look at the bigger picture. And instead of looking at the personality dishing out the advice let us look at the naseeha itself (and this is what Mufti Ebrahim Desai حفظه الل has also said).

I am not worth anything to have commented here but felt obliged. Allah give hidayat, istikamat and ikhlaas. Ameen.

[Janny2006]

Assalamu alaykum,
Firstly May Allah protect and bless Ml Desai throughout his life from the evil of man. I am extremely upset that such comments had to been made against this pious mufti! How dare such comments be made, do you not fear Allah! of course you do, but isn't slandering/backbiting one of those greatest sins that can be committed. Look at the hikmah at the naseeha that respected mufti gave, but some of you have forgotten the advice and
decided to concentrate on the mufti himself and how he speaks or what car he drives!!! Whoever wrote these should be ashamed, we should not be doing these sins especially on sunniforum, it does not matter whichever
shaykh or mufti we should respect them for who they are despite their views.

Normally, i don't make posts or make comments due to my limited knowledge but i have known sunniforum for a long time, a regular reader, but i have to say sunniforum has changed, there's hardly any naseeha but theres
debates on whose following the right path.
where has the humility gone? But most importantly where has OUR ADAAB gone? Especially when receiving advice from a pious shaykh.

[ovH9wfSJ]

I m not into bayah nor i have been to Tableeghi jamaath. But I believe both tassawuf and tableegh play important role in our deen. My knowledge or experience regarding all the matters is negligible, so i won't comment much. But one thing is for sure, 'some' from both sufi followers and TJ's are showing 'cult behaviour' and groupism. Before you jump on me I said 'some' not 'all' or 'majority'... lolz.. I often see people say " Tj's don't advice sufis or sufi don't advice Tj's". This is Kibr, For one to reject an advice even before hearing it, one has to already think the adviser is 'lesser that me' . Now that is arrogance.

Not the exact conversation, this is what i could recollect:
When Umar(ra) became Khalifah he asked the sahaba 'what would you do if i deviate from the truth?'
A sahabi got up and said, 'We will straighten you with our swords.!'
Umar(ra) said, 'Alhamdulillah we still have people like you among us.'

There is no doubt Umar(ra) was more superior ,in knowledge and action, than the rest of them after the time of Rasoolullah and Abu Bakr(ra). No one had any doubt. But Umar(ra) had the humility to accept correction from others (possibly lesser in stature).

P.s. Another issue is giving Advice. It better not to give much advice, because if we ourselves do not follow them, then we are in trouble big time. Big time.

I sincerely hope we get rid of our 'cult' behavior.

[arrasleds]

I m not into bayah nor i have been to Tableeghi jamaath. But I believe both tassawuf and tableegh play important role in our deen. My knowledge or experience regarding all the matters is negligible, so i won't comment much. But one thing is for sure, 'some' from both sufi followers and TJ's are showing 'cult behaviour' and groupism. Before you jump on me I said 'some' not 'all' or 'majority'... lolz.. I often see people say " Tj's don't advice sufis or sufi don't advice Tj's". This is Kibr, For one to reject an advice even before hearing it, one has to already think the adviser is 'lesser that me' . Now that is arrogance.

Not the exact conversation, this is what i could recollect:
When Umar(ra) became Khalifah he asked the sahaba 'what would you do if i deviate from the truth?'
A sahabi got up and said, 'We will straighten you with our swords.!'
Umar(ra) said, 'Alhamdulillah we still have people like you among us.'

There is no doubt Umar(ra) was more superior ,in knowledge and action, than the rest of them after the time of Rasoolullah and Abu Bakr(ra). No one had any doubt. But Umar(ra) had the humility to accept correction from others (possibly lesser in stature).

P.s. Another issue is giving Advice. It better not to give much advice, because if we ourselves do not follow them, then we are in trouble big time. Big time.

I sincerely hope we get rid of our 'cult' behavior.

Bro amr, that is not kibr / arrogance, you can learn a lot about tabligh from the books / bayans / ml tariq jameel's discourses but until and unless you leave in khurooj and follow the tarteeb you will never really know its deeper meaning and the same applies to tasawwuf.

The accusation of kibr would be valid if I say TJ is better than tasawwuf, or if someone says tasawwuf is better than tabligh. No offense pal.

[Scukonah]

Bro amr, that is not kibr / arrogance, you can learn a lot about tabligh from the books / bayans / ml tariq jameel's discourses but until and unless you leave in khurooj and follow the tarteeb you will never really know its deeper meaning and the same applies to tasawwuf.

The accusation of kibr would be valid if I say TJ is better than tasawwuf, or if someone says tasawwuf is better than tabligh. No offense pal.

Ofcourse I lack knowledge in both tasawwuf and tabligh. I was speaking in more general terms.

But bro, do you think its right for a person to say 'don't advice us' ?