[AK47rulz]

which father would go to the court and tell the judge that his daughter committed adultery, even when there is a khilafat?.. most of the muslims dont even expose the names of their daughters and sisters?..we arent being practical here I think, Again, May Allah save us from such a situation!!

[MormefWrarebe]

I am just discussing this issue on this thread to learn how to deal with such a situation, Please do not take me as someone who encourages and believes in killing of women because they have male friends...

[Piemonedmow]

Br. Salman

We should realize from the outset that Islam prefers prevention over cure. That's why a large body of Islamic rulings is focused on the prevention of a vice or evil, which act as deterrents, and are meted out only as the last measure to cure the individual and / or the society of that particular evil.

For example, parents are instructed to teach Salaah to their children from the age of 7 years (as children are usually smart enough to learn by that age), and to be strict if they don't pray at 10. This is in spite of the fact that by consensus, Salaah becomes obligatory only after reaching 'buloogh' or puberty. This is to ensure that once the child reaches puberty, he or she is so careful and steadfast with his prayers, that he doesn't miss any.

Similarly, we can study the different types of Hudood mentioned in Qur'an:

• Apostasy - Death
• Murder - Death (when it is classified as Qatl-e-'Amad - i.e. with an intention to kill with a lethal weapon)
• Adultery - Death (when committed by a married person) or 100 Lashes (when committed by a person who has never been married)
• Theft - Cutting off the hand
• Drinking wine - 80 Lashes
• False accusation of Zina (Qadhf) - 80 Lashes + invalidation of their testimony

There are further details to each, e.g. the severity of lashing which is harshest for Qadhf, and much lighter for Adultery. Or, in case of repeated theft, the other hand is not severed, but rather the opposite limb (e.g. if left hand was severed on the first offense, right foot would be severed on the second, and that's that - no further severing of limbs even if the person continues to commit theft - simply, some alternative punishment would be administered). However, this is another discussion altogether.

The point I was trying to make before drifting off, is that the scholars explain that part of the wisdom behind each of the Hudood are the 5 things considered significant by Islam, i.e.:

1. Deen
2. Human being (his life + honor)
3. Lineage
4. Property
5. Intellect / Sense / Wisdom (عقل)

Each of the Hudood governs one of the above 5. It's easy to map them together.

The discussion here is about a family's honor being tarnished by a female member and it's consequences. We should bear in mind how Islam tries to prevent that before arriving on the question as to how should that female be punished:

• A clean, healthy environment at home where the child could learn their core values, including being educated about their faith, halaal / haraam.
• Establishing Salaah and other prayers.
• Segregation between sexes, even before reaching puberty.
• Encouraging females to stay at home, unless there is a dire need and, in that case, allowing them to leave home only when they have covered up properly.
• Recommending that they be accompanied by a Mahraam when they do go out.

And this is all when they are in an Islamic society, where Islam is practiced as a faith as well as the law (the difference is made between the two for those who differentiate between faith and law. For a Muslim, Islam is the law that governs his faith). How much more significant such measures could become when the society is totally opposite of what Islam ordains, which is unfortunately the case all over the world today, الا ما شاء اللہ.

Now, to revert to the original question, Islam encourages discretion, consideration and gentleness when approaching such matters. I cannot recall the exact source for the following, but I can research if required (unless some enlightened brother could quote the correct source). I remember reading about an instance when people from an Arab tribe came to Madinah (probably during the time of Umar رضی اللہ عنہ - again TBC) with one of their daughters who had committed adultery and had accepted it. Before they could reach the authority, they met a Sahabi (again TBC, but I think it was Abu Darda رضی اللہ عنہ), who when hearing about their issue, asked them to encourage the girl to repent, and NOT to report the incident to the authority (who would then have to proceed with the Hadd once the offense was established by proof or admission). They argued, and the Sahabi argued back and finally convinced them to return without subjecting the girl to the punishment, or even letting the issue progress to the court.

I hope I am able to make the point here, is that you do not dish out punishments on your own. In fact, punishment is the last resort, and before we progress that far, there may be easier, much better alternatives that may help prevent or even cure the problem.

Honor killings, and how these are executed, is a despicable practice which dishonors Islam and Muslims, as most people consider these being done in the name of Islam.

[AndrewBoss]

Brother Abu Yusuf

for taking the time out for replying. First of all, I completely agree with you that discretion is the best course of action, so it would be best if the girl's father approaches the boy's family and get them married or put an end to their shamelessness somehow, any person who is motivated enough to do an honour killing would go for discretion at the first place if he has a choice, and that is what I also mentioned in my post.

But I am talking about the scenario when the woman in question brings dishonour and her activities are known to people outside the family, as is the case with most situations that involve honour killings. This could be either

1. The girl wanting to marry a guy and insisting on it against the wishes of her father and their extended family and tribe coming to know of the dispute.

2. A wife/daughter/sister having an affair with a man, and her father/husband/brother have to hear insults from people.

Both these scenarios occur in the lower stratas of the pakistani society, and such scenarios lead to honour killings.

What should be done in these scenarios?

[doxinwasido]

I am amazed that they can kill their own child, it must be an totally consuming feeling. Do they fear the dishonour of people or is it the fear of Allah? If it was fear of Allah they would not kill them would they?

[VYholden]

First and foremost, it must be borne in mind that Islam does not condone killing a human being in a society except as a (Hadd) punishment of one the crimes noted above. There can be exceptions made by the ruler / authority under certain cases where the severity of a crime may warrant ending a life, for example in a case where a pedophile abuses a number of children and letting them die by torturing them. I mention this because it actually happened in Pakistan some 10-11 years ago. In this case, although a Hadd may not be applied directly, but the ruler can punish the perpetrator to death (by a number of means) as a Ta'zeer. Besides the ruler or their representative, no one is authorized to dole out punishments (whether in the name of Islam or not). Anyone who ends a human life, will be subjected to the same fate (one exception under normal circumstances is a father who kills his son / daughter).

As for the question of what should be done in such cases, certainly not killing the woman. If she is still living with her family, she could be talked out of it. They may impose some restrictions on her after consultation with Ulama (although the restrictions recommended by Islam should be enough to begin with), that would limit her movement and access. (NOTE: This would be a crime in most countries today, though, especially the West and if reported, could get the family in legal trouble. It's open to argument whether a Muslim should choose to live in a society where Islamic values and/or practices are looked down upon, or even get him in legal trouble if report to the authorities.)

1. The girl wanting to marry a guy and insisting on it against the wishes of her father and their extended family and tribe coming to know of the dispute.

This is the less severe of the two issues and I am sure this could be resolved with some negotiation, provided both parties are willing to yield a bit.

2. A wife/daughter/sister having an affair with a man, and her father/husband/brother have to hear insults from people.

Again, I can't fathom how this warrants killing the woman (and the man she is involved with, as is done in Sindh province of Pakistan, which they call Karo-Kari). Her male guardians share the responsibility equally if not more. How did it come to this, if they didn't fail to observe the prevention and deterrence guidelines laid out by Islam? And how did they fail to notice the before others, to the extent that it is making rounds in their respective circles? Brother, what we all need is fear of Allah, and in quite an abundance. It's a pity that those who commit these honor killings don't bat an eye until after it's too late. You have listed many different cases: those of a father, a brother and a husband. The most embarrassing would be that of a husband whose wife is cheating him. He can divorce her, or have Li'aan in case he caught her in the act. If he still has to face embarrassment from people (which would be Haraam on their part), remember, going on to kill her would bring even more embarrassment and shame on the Day of Judgement, because what he did was to pacify his Nafs, and not fulfill the command of Allah SWT. Sure, the woman has gone astray, but don't the men do too? Just for the sake of argument, Ulama declare backbiting (gheebah) as a worse sin than adultery, although there is no Hadd for it.

Dear brother, I know and understand that these so called honor killings are common amongst Muslims (and not limited only to Pakistan; these are quite prevalent in Arabs too, and even in the Western countries. However, most of these killers are not really observant Muslims), and in my opinion, the best approach is enlightening people both with knowledge of Deen, as well as the desire to follow it with the fear of Allah SWT. It is basically due to lack of proper education and understanding as well as preferring their customs and honor codes over the laws of Allah SWT that people go to the extremes they do.

I do not wish to enter or start an argument, and I kind of regret that I have written as much as I did. As you can guess from my number of posts, I do not contribute to the forum except once in a blue moon. It's just that the thread caught my eye, and it was probably more to satisfy my own desire to write than anything else that I posted the original reply.

I may not contribute to this discussion any further.

[MFSSCW2c]

I do not wish to enter or start an argument, and I kind of regret that I have written as much as I did. As you can guess from my number of posts, I do not contribute to the forum except once in a blue moon. It's just that the thread caught my eye, and it was probably more to satisfy my own desire to write than anything else that I posted the original reply.

I may not contribute to this discussion any further.

I found what you wrote useful. You also said in some cases a father is allowed to kill his son/daughter...can you elaborate on this please.

[byncnombmub]

I found what you wrote useful. You also said in some cases a father is allowed to kill his son/daughter...can you elaborate on this please.

I never said that. In fact, I had said that Islam does not condone killing any human being (be it even a non-Muslim, or a slave) in a society, and if somebody does indeed kill another person (intentionally, that is) they shall face the death penalty as Qisas (a Hadd) or even as a Ta'zeer (تعزیر). I'd mentioned that the only exception is a father who kills his son or daughter. This is established from Sunnah (i.e. Hadith) and there's a general consensus amongst the Fuqaha over this. In fact, the term الأب (father) is extended to grand-father (and above), mother, grand-mother (and above)۔ Please see below excerpt from الفقه الإسلامي وأدلته by Sh. Wahba al-Zuhaily.

Again, bear in mind that the concession is only about death penalty. It is not as if the parents would not be punished at all. I chose to refer to this book as it presents a comprehensive discussion over any ruling and presents views from all four Imams. If you refer to classical Hanafi texts like Qudoori, Hidaya, Bada'i-ul-Sana'i, etc you'll find them corroborating the ruling as described herein.

P.S. If you can read Arabic you will notice how Malikia differ between intentional murder, and accidental killing.

قتل الوالد بالولد وبالعكس
ألا يكون المجني عليه جزء القاتل، أي ألا تكون هناك رابطة الأبوة والبنوة، فلا قصاص على أحد الوالدين (الأب والجد، والأم أو الجدة وإن علوا) بقتل الولد أو ولد الولد وإن سفلوا، لقوله صلّى الله عليه وسلم : «لا يقاد الوالد بالولد» (1) . قال ابن عبد البر: هو حديث مشهور عند أهل العلم بالحجاز والعراق، مستفيض عندهم، يستغنى بشهرته وقبوله والعمل به عن الإسناد فيه، حتى يكون الإسناد في مثله مع شهرته تكلفاً (2). ولأن في القصاص من الأب شبهة آتية من حديث: «أنت ومالك لأبيك» (3) والقصاص يدرأ بالشبهات. ولأن الأوامر المطالبة بالإحسان إلى الآباء تمنع القصاص منهم، فقد كان الأب سبباً في إيجاد ولده، فلا يكون الابن سبباً في إعدامه. وإذا لم يقتل الأب بابنه وجب عليه الدية. وهذا الحكم متفق عليه بين أئمة المذاهب (4) إلا أن المالكية استثنوا حالة واحدة: هي أن يتحقق أن الأب أراد قتل ابنه، وانتفت شبهة إرادة تأديبه وتهذيبه، كأن يضجعه فيذبحه، أو يبقر بطنه أو يقطع أعضاءه، فيقتل به لعموم القصاص بين المسلمين. فلو ضربه بقصد التأديب، أو في حالة غضب، أو رماه بسيف أو عصا، فقتله لا يقتل به۔
واتفق الفقهاء على أنه يقتل الولد بقتل والده، لعموم القصاص وآياته الدالة على وجوبه على كل قاتل، إلا ما استثني بالحديث السابق (5). وعلة التفرقة بين الأب والابن في هذا الحكم: هو قوة المحبة التي بين الأب والابن، إلا أن محبة الأب غير مشوبة بشبهة مادية بقصد انتظار النفع منه، فتكون محبته له أصيلة لا لنفسه، فتقتضيه بالطبيعة الحرص على حياته. أما محبة الولد لأبيه فهي مشوبة بشبهة انتظار المنفعة؛ لأن ماله له بعد وفاة أبيه، فلا يحرص عادة على حياته، فتكون محبته لنفسه، فقد يقتله۔

-------------------------------
ح (1) رواه الترمذي والنسائي وابن ماجه عن عمر بن الخطاب، وفي بعض أسانيده طعن، وصحح البيهقي والحاكم بعض طرقه. وروي عن آخرين وهم ابن عباس وسراقة بن مالك وعمرو بن شعيب عن أبيه عند جده
ح (2) المغني: 666/7
ح (3) رواه ابن ماجه عن جابر، والطبراني عن سمرة وابن مسعود، وهو ضعيف
ح (4) البدائع: 235/7، تكملة الفتح: 258/8 وما بعدها، بداية المجتهد: 293/2، الشرح الكبير للدردير: 242/4، مغني المحتاج: 18/4، المهذب: 174/3، المغني: 666/7 ومابعدها، الأحكام السلطانية للماوردي: ص 222
ح (5) المراجع السابقة

[emorbimefed]

This is a topic for Muslims in part because our way of life is under attack and we are on the defensive from Western liberal secular ideology and system. And Western media/pop culture is a major means of this attack on us.

Does anyone else see this?

[meencegic]

I am just discussing this issue on this thread to learn how to deal with such a situation, Please do not take me as someone who encourages and believes in killing of women because they have male friends...

In the name of honor, people kill them, In Pakistan, it termed as "karokari" and openly exist in feudal society. Although it only happen in extremely backward tribes, but when internet cafe scandals happen in lahore, rawalpindi, some girls of noble families got killed to protect the "honor" after broadcast of their hidden videos.
May Allah save all mankind from such events.
What should be done at that time is difficult to tell

[Lidawka]

In the name of honor, people kill them, In Pakistan, it termed as "karokari" and openly exist in feudal society. Although it only happen in extremely backward tribes, but when internet cafe scandals happen in lahore, rawalpindi, some girls of noble families got killed to protect the "honor" after broadcast of their hidden videos.
May Allah save all mankind from such events.
What should be done at that time is difficult to tell

, thats kind of my point, we have never been in such situation and cannot be sure what to do in such a situation, people screaming "murder" and "barbarism" are using the same terminology they use for ordinary murderers....

[SoOW2LeA]

, thats kind of my point, we have never been in such situation and cannot be sure what to do in such a situation, people screaming "murder" and "barbarism" are using the same terminology they use for ordinary murderers....

The people screaming murder and barbarism are instigating the initial crimes themselves!

These devils are at WAR with Islam - they are trying to destroy it and we are stupidly attacking each other.


I say: forget these so called honor killings- these incidents are NOT the primary problem facing Muslims. the primary problem is our inability to defend and repel the kufr liberal propagation in Muslim societies.

The kufar advocate zina`- fornication outside of marriage. They actually discriminate AGAINST those who oppose zina!!!

And as their pop media promote zina` 24/7 in TV, music, movies, fashion, the most impressionable among us fall to them. And young girls attending school with the kufar tend to be the most impressionable, most vulnerable.

If a Muslim girl wants to commit zina`- fornicate and engage in sex with strange men- then this is a great evil.

I must say that here in the Khaleej, as liberal Wester pop culture is propagated 24/7 and Western powers and culture aer gaining the top status here, all kinds of munkar and fahsha is on the rise, including zina`. And since Islamic culture is repressed here as a guiding force in society, secular liberal pop culture is injected to replace it. It is now common to see effeminate and gay Khaleeji men here sashaying about in the innercities of the Khaleej.

There is an open war going on. You can listen to screaming hypocrites or devils from the liberal pulpits, but these devils have no moral standing. They are trying to force us to compromise and succumb to THEIR misguidance.
Allah says in the Holy Quran as translated from 68:7-9
Lo! thy Lord is best aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is best aware of those who walk aright. (7)
Therefore obey not thou the rejecters (8)
Who would have had thee compromise, that they may compromise. (9) They want us to accept Zina`, to allow for sodomy and fornication as they do. They want us to demolish the family concept as they have. This is part of their liberalism and equality between genders: that girls in particular should be free to fornicate and even parents cannot restrict the sexual actions of their children, as they perceive this to be natural, as a pig wallows in its own feces is natural.

[Vemnagelignc]

, thats kind of my point, we have never been in such situation and cannot be sure what to do in such a situation, people screaming "murder" and "barbarism" are using the same terminology they use for ordinary murderers....

Although killing at that moment is illegel and can't be justified but this reaction is not abnormal. the decision taken is not in cool mind after asking a fatwa but it is excessive anger which cause it.

One option is to try to conceal this evil act and advise the daughter/sister to repent, and keep more strict eye after it.
But problem go worse if such things are filmed and spread.
I am afraid that the honor killings may enter from tribes to cities........

[BundEnhamma]

Wa Salam

One can see this all-out war against Islam on CNN International's homepage, with its front-page news videos and articles about 'honor killings'. In the case specified by them (perhaps today, at the link: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/23/wo...html?hpt=hp_c2), they make it look innocent that the woman fell in love with another man due to an abusive marriage.

Sure, we would say, an abusive marriage should end one way or the other, but not by the woman making illicit friendships with men, which can eventually lead to apostasy... as we see in the case above, this is exaxctly what happened, as the featured woman apostatized from Islam.

There are a number of other issues at play, such as the uncompromising approval of the husband by his family in spite of whatever evils he committed, but do note that even when CNN tries to explain the "true Islamic" position with respect to honor killings, they bring in such evil people like Irshad Manji and the like to be the "spokespeople" of Islam.

[Hedkffiz]

Wa Salam

One can see this all-out war against Islam on CNN International's homepage, with its front-page news videos and articles about 'honor killings'. In the case specified by them (perhaps today, at the link: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/23/wo...html?hpt=hp_c2), they make it look innocent that the woman fell in love with another man due to an abusive marriage.

Sure, we would say, an abusive marriage should end one way or the other, but not by the woman making illicit friendships with men, which can eventually lead to apostasy... as we see in the case above, this is exaxctly what happened, as the featured woman apostatized from Islam.

There are a number of other issues at play, such as the uncompromising approval of the husband by his family in spite of whatever evils he committed, but do note that even when CNN tries to explain the "true Islamic" position with respect to honor killings, they bring in such evil people like Irshad Manji and the like to be the "spokespeople" of Islam.

i don't know why exactly she apostasized, but she states that she 'grew tired' and at another place she stated something like she couldn't balance eastern and western cultures. thats the sad thing right there: never understanding Islam fully and never thinking of it as something beyond culture. this is most probably why she blamed cultural practices on Islam and saw Islam through a western liberal lens. both of which took her away from Islam. then again i am not contending that an illicit relationship resulted in Allah (SWT)'s wrath on her. Allahualam.

May Allah guide her back to Islam and may she find solace in it. please pray for her everyone.

[Uzezqelj]

This is a topic for Muslims in part because our way of life is under attack and we are on the defensive from Western liberal secular ideology and system. And Western media/pop culture is a major means of this attack on us.

Does anyone else see this?

yes this is absolutely correct and in fact it is broader than you think.

across the world the west has convinced the world that its degenerate consumerist culture is 'modernity'

and they have proceeded to wipe away most traditional decency, family values and real civilization from the face of the world with it.


Islam being the only true and un-abrogated form of guidance is also the only bastion of decency that is holding out against them -

this is why they declared the war on Islam which (in its modern form) was born after a series of anti-Islam meetings that occurred in the West during the late 1990's CE - they were officially about dealing with Islamic extremism, but what they meant by extremism was not extremism, but rather real Orthodox Islam.

[SoftrermaBioniaSat]

yes this is absolutely correct and in fact it is broader than you think.

across the world the west has convinced the world that its degenerate consumerist culture is 'modernity'

and they have proceeded to wipe away most traditional decency, family values and real civilization from the face of the world with it.


Islam being the only true and un-abrogated form of guidance is also the only bastion of decency that is holding out against them -

this is why they declared the war on Islam which (in its modern form) was born after a series of anti-Islam meetings that occurred in the West during the late 1990's CE - they were officially about dealing with Islamic extremism, but what they meant by extremism was not extremism, but rather real Orthodox Islam.

Excellent points.

The call for 'modernity' includes the surrender to degenerate everything: consumerism, social relations, politics, moral depravity.

[giftbestcom]

Salam Alaykum,

The only thing that from my viewpoint has to be clarified is this:

We know that the relatives of the slain person have a right to demand Qisas, or to waive the punishment altogether. It is obvious that if the prevailing social conditions are such that killing a lady due to her commiting something like "sending message through her mobile phone" is seen as acceptable even by her father, brother, etc., then they will even be happy that she was killed, and would never demand Qisas for the murderer (let us imagine in here that the woman's killer was her husband). In such a case, would the judge or the higher authority have the right to waive the normal right of the murdered person's kin of applying their right to waive punishment? If not, then what are the possible routes of action?

[Kristoferson]

There was a thread a few weeks back that discussed this same thing. I cannot remember the name of it. Someone posted a hadith in which khalif Umar (ra) punished a father who had killed his son, by making him pay 100 camels to the Muslim authority, and they would be punished in the akhira.

Salam Alaykum,

The only thing that from my viewpoint has to be clarified is this:

We know that the relatives of the slain person have a right to demand Qisas, or to waive the punishment altogether. It is obvious that if the prevailing social conditions are such that killing a lady due to her commiting something like "sending message through her mobile phone" is seen as acceptable even by her father, brother, etc., then they will even be happy that she was killed, and would never demand Qisas for the murderer (let us imagine in here that the woman's killer was her husband). In such a case, would the judge or the higher authority have the right to waive the normal right of the murdered person's kin of applying their right to waive punishment? If not, then what are the possible routes of action?

[Soadiassy]

There was a thread a few weeks back that discussed this same thing. I cannot remember the name of it. Someone posted a hadith in which khalif Umar (ra) punished a father who had killed his son, by making him pay 100 camels to the Muslim authority, and they would be punished in the akhira. Maybe someone can clarify whether this same type of rule could apply to the "honor killing case". I am asking because I read in one article that 20 percent of Jordanian men thought it was acceptable according to Islam to kill one's female relative for honor crimes. Now, I am obviously not sure whether this poll was correct or biased, but taking into consideration that (as far as I know), the Hadd is waived if any of the male members of the paternal line of the murdered agree to forgo the Hadd, then even if 1 in 20 believe that "honor killings" are acceptable, then there would need to be a remedy for this situation from the Islamic judges and authorities.