[JonnLeejsp]

they are legitimate, i am sure of it and know some of them. may allah guide us all

[TEFSADDERFISA]

Assalamu Alaikum, I am no expert on them, but there is a strong refutation of them on this thread, including parts from Al-Azhar.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...hbash-Habashis

[Evelinessa]

May Allah guide us all in the ahlesunnah wal jama'ah. i know people from them and what they say is all according to ahlesunnah wal jama'ah. dont slander brothers while we are being attacked by munafiqs.

[Flerdourdyged]

May Allah guide us all in the ahlesunnah wal jama'ah.

Ameen

i know people from them and what they say is all according to ahlesunnah wal jama'ah. don't slander brothers while we are being attacked by munafiqs.

brother I have not slandered anyone by mentioning this.

It is a scholarly refutation, not gossip and slander.

I have not said that I agree with it, rather I have pointed to its existence as it is relevant to the thread.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

We have visited the site you mentioned in your question and we came to the conclusion that this site is maily concerned with publishing information and articles about Al-Ahbash. Here, we will try our best to brief you on Al-Ahbash sect as well as their dogmas and beliefs by citing the following:

"Al-Ahbash is a stray sect that follows `Abdullah ibn Al-Habashi. It has recently appeared in Lebanon taking advantage of the ignorance and poverty that resulted from the Lebanese civil war. It calls for the revival of the approaches of the advocates of the science of Kalam (theology), Sufis, and the Batiniyyah, with the aim of corrupting the Islamic creed, fragmenting Muslims and distracting them from their main issues.

Establishment:

`Abdullah Al-Harari Al-Habashi is `Abdullah ibn Muhammad Ash-Shybi Al-`Abdary by lineage, and is called Al-Harary because he comes from the city of Harar in Abyssinya (Al-Habashah). He came to Lebanon in 1950 after he incited sedition against Muslims there. He joined hands with the ruler of Indragy , the son in law of Hilasilasy , against the Islamic schools for teaching Qur’an in the city of Harar in 1376 AH/1940 CE causing what is known as the sedition of the Kolob country which resulted in sentencing the manager of the schools to twenty three years of imprisonment then he was exiled to Joury county and died there.

Moreover, the rest of the Sheikhs and callers to Islam fell in the hands of Hilasilasy who humiliated them and drove them to flee to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. That’s why `Abdullah Al-Harary was called ‘ the leader of the sedition”. Since he came to Lebanon he kept inciting sedition exactly as he used to do in his country and kept spreading his corrupt beliefs, insulting the Prophet’s Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) accusing `A'ishah, the mother of the believers (may Allah be pleased with her) of not following Allah’s orders in addition to issuing wrongful fatwas.

Al-Habashi has recently succeeded in attracting a large group of insolent fanatics who do not consider anyone as a Muslim unless he declared his submission to their leader and his corrupt creed that includes the Batinyyah and the Rafidah. Moreover, they force themselves on people by going to their houses and insisting that they learn the Habashi creed.

Beliefs and dogmas:

Reading thoroughly all that has been issued by such sect, one would clearly see that they violate the principles of Islam and its main creed. Following are some of their beliefs:

1- Concerning creed, they follow the condemned school of Irja'. It is well known that the Islamic creed held by the Prophet’s Companions and their successors states that faith is a matter of declaring in words, believing in the heart and all this must be reflected in action for belief without practice and submission to Shari`ah has no place in Islam. However, according to them it is not necessary that faith be reflected in action and hence a person remains a believer even if he neglects all the pillars of Islam.

2- Such a sect consider it permissible to seek the help of the dead besides instead of that of Allah and this is clearly considered in the Qur'an and Sunnah as ascribing partners to Allah. They urge people to do so claiming that the dead get out from their graves to fulfill the requests of those who call upon them and then get back to the graves. Allah Almighty says: “They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah.” (Yunus: 18)

3- They consider that the Qur'an is not the words of Allah but that of Gabriel.

4- They claim to follow the Shafi`i School in respect to fiqh and belief. However, they are, in fact, very far from the principles of the School of Imam ash-Shafi`i.

5- They claim that Allah has created the universe and sent the Messengers to humans for no purpose or wisdom and whoever attributes any of Allah's actions to the Divine Wisdom is a mushrik.

6- They abuse the Prophet’s Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) particularly Mu`awiyah, `A'ishah, Khalid ibn al-Walid. They declared that Mu`awayh (may Allah be pleased with him) was not a true believer. In such case, they are similar to the Rafidah who also insult the Prophet’s Companions. [Muslims must abstain from discussing the relationship between the Prophet’s Companions and their disagreements. They must also recognize their role in promoting Islam and their being privileged with the Companionship of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). It is confirmed that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Do not abuse my Companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Mountain Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a mudd or even a half mudd spent by one of them."‏ Allah Almighty says: “And those who came (into the faith) after them say: Our Lord Forgive us and our brethren who were before us in the faith, and place not in our hearts any rancor toward those who believe. Our Lord! Thou art Full of Pity, Mercifl.” (Al-Hashr: 10)]

7- One of the most flagrant violations of this sect is their issuing of wrong fatwas that contradict the Qur'an and the Sunnah. For instance, they consider gambling with non-believers permissible in order to take away their money as long as this does not lead to sedition. Moreover, they consider robbing the harvest and the cattle of non-believers and permissible. They also consider it permissible to deal in Riba (interest) with non-Muslims, and to join lottery games. Moreover, one of their most obvious violations to the principles of religion is their declaration that it is permissible to look lustfully at women, on television or elsewhere, and also that intermingling between men and women without any restrictions is permissible. These are some examples of their weird fatwas that clearly contradict Shari`ah and consider all grave sins as permissible practices.

8- One of their mean ways of making Mulsims abstain from following the scholars of Islam is their belittling of their status, insulting them and labeling many of them as kuffar (non-Muslims). Among the scholars which they labeled as kuffar Ibn Taymiyyah, Adh-Dhahabi, Muhammad ibn Abdel-Wahhab, Sayyed Sabiq, Sayyed Qutb, etc."

Translated excerpts, with modifications, from Al-Mawsu`ah Al-Fiqhiyyah Al-Muyassarah fi Al-Adyan wal Madhahib Al-Mu`asirah.

In this context, we'd like to cite for you the following fatwa issued by the eminent Muslim scholar, Dr. `Ali Jum`ah, Professor of the Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence at Al-Azhar University:

“This sect follows `Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi, and it has surface and deep levels. At the surface, this sect seems to adhere to the Shafi`i School of Jurisprudence, and to Imam Al-Ash`ari’s School as regards creed. However, at the deep level, their main intention is to corrupt the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslim Ummah. Moreover, they are paid agents to the enemies of Islam.

After inciting sedition in Harar, `Abdullah Al-Habashi moved to Beirut where he started deceiving young men into joining his suspected group. He worked as an editor for publishers in Lebanon and started to cooperate with the Jews and their agents in South Lebanon. He started in the seventies to spread his corrupt thoughts and to declare many scholars as non-Muslims, especially Imam Ibn Taymiyyah , Imam Muhammad `Abdul Wahhab , the Hanbalis and all those who held different views from his under the pretext that they violate the principles of Imam Al-Ash`ari or what he has understood from the texts of the Shafi`is .

Moreover, he urged his followers to incite sedition wherever they go. For instance, they cause such a controversy concerning the direction of the Qiblah in America violating all the principles of modern science claiming that they are just innovations and rejecting substantial evidence. They caused the same problem in Japan.

In addition to causing a problem over their following other Muslims in prayers, the problem over food, the controversy over getting married to women belonging to other revealed religions and other issues that are controversial amongst Muslim scholars.

They hold strange deviant views that have never been expressed by any Muslim sect, group or movement. They declared that intermingling between men and women is permissible without any restrictions, and that Muslim leaders are not true believers and that it is permissible to cooperate with non-believers. They also once spread that their leader died then they declared that it was a rumor. In such a way, they made people detest them as they were always linked with sedition. Several Muslim authorities warned against such a sect including: the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar, the General Authority for Research, Fatwas and the Islamic call and guidance in Saudi Arabia, the Higher Council for Fatwas in Northern America.

In order to continue deceiving people, they usually do not express their true views and intentions in the books or any of the publications that they issue. Even the books issued by their leader is quite ordinary and do not contain any of their aberrant views which is, in fact, part of their plan to deceive people and attract more followers. However, many of their followers repent and revert to the true path when they learn the truth about such sect."

Based on the aforementioned facts, we'd like to conclude with the following points:

1- The Ahbash group is a stray group that is not considered among main stream Muslims and they have to revert to the true path of the Companions and their successors, both in belief and in action.

2- It is not permissible to follow the fatwas of such sect.

3- They are not trustworthy and people must be warned against their dangerous corrupt views. Moreover, Muslims should advise the followers of such sect to revert to the true path.

Allah Almighty knows best.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

(source Islamonline.net)

it is a strong refutation, please correct its mistakes if you know it is misguided or factually incorrect and inform me of bias that scholars associated to Islamonline.net may have against the Habashis if this is the case.

[swissloveone]

Ameen



brother I have not slandered anyone by mentioning this.

It is a scholarly refutation, not gossip and slander.

I have not said that I agree with it, rather I have pointed to its existence as it is relevant to the thread.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

We have visited the site you mentioned in your question and we came to the conclusion that this site is maily concerned with publishing information and articles about Al-Ahbash. Here, we will try our best to brief you on Al-Ahbash sect as well as their dogmas and beliefs by citing the following:

"Al-Ahbash is a stray sect that follows `Abdullah ibn Al-Habashi. It has recently appeared in Lebanon taking advantage of the ignorance and poverty that resulted from the Lebanese civil war. It calls for the revival of the approaches of the advocates of the science of Kalam (theology), Sufis, and the Batiniyyah, with the aim of corrupting the Islamic creed, fragmenting Muslims and distracting them from their main issues.

Establishment:

`Abdullah Al-Harari Al-Habashi is `Abdullah ibn Muhammad Ash-Shybi Al-`Abdary by lineage, and is called Al-Harary because he comes from the city of Harar in Abyssinya (Al-Habashah). He came to Lebanon in 1950 after he incited sedition against Muslims there. He joined hands with the ruler of Indragy , the son in law of Hilasilasy , against the Islamic schools for teaching Qur’an in the city of Harar in 1376 AH/1940 CE causing what is known as the sedition of the Kolob country which resulted in sentencing the manager of the schools to twenty three years of imprisonment then he was exiled to Joury county and died there.

Moreover, the rest of the Sheikhs and callers to Islam fell in the hands of Hilasilasy who humiliated them and drove them to flee to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. That’s why `Abdullah Al-Harary was called ‘ the leader of the sedition”. Since he came to Lebanon he kept inciting sedition exactly as he used to do in his country and kept spreading his corrupt beliefs, insulting the Prophet’s Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) accusing `A'ishah, the mother of the believers (may Allah be pleased with her) of not following Allah’s orders in addition to issuing wrongful fatwas.

Al-Habashi has recently succeeded in attracting a large group of insolent fanatics who do not consider anyone as a Muslim unless he declared his submission to their leader and his corrupt creed that includes the Batinyyah and the Rafidah. Moreover, they force themselves on people by going to their houses and insisting that they learn the Habashi creed.

Beliefs and dogmas:

Reading thoroughly all that has been issued by such sect, one would clearly see that they violate the principles of Islam and its main creed. Following are some of their beliefs:

1- Concerning creed, they follow the condemned school of Irja'. It is well known that the Islamic creed held by the Prophet’s Companions and their successors states that faith is a matter of declaring in words, believing in the heart and all this must be reflected in action for belief without practice and submission to Shari`ah has no place in Islam. However, according to them it is not necessary that faith be reflected in action and hence a person remains a believer even if he neglects all the pillars of Islam.

2- Such a sect consider it permissible to seek the help of the dead besides instead of that of Allah and this is clearly considered in the Qur'an and Sunnah as ascribing partners to Allah. They urge people to do so claiming that the dead get out from their graves to fulfill the requests of those who call upon them and then get back to the graves. Allah Almighty says: “They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah.” (Yunus: 18)

3- They consider that the Qur'an is not the words of Allah but that of Gabriel.

4- They claim to follow the Shafi`i School in respect to fiqh and belief. However, they are, in fact, very far from the principles of the School of Imam ash-Shafi`i.

5- They claim that Allah has created the universe and sent the Messengers to humans for no purpose or wisdom and whoever attributes any of Allah's actions to the Divine Wisdom is a mushrik.

6- They abuse the Prophet’s Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) particularly Mu`awiyah, `A'ishah, Khalid ibn al-Walid. They declared that Mu`awayh (may Allah be pleased with him) was not a true believer. In such case, they are similar to the Rafidah who also insult the Prophet’s Companions. [Muslims must abstain from discussing the relationship between the Prophet’s Companions and their disagreements. They must also recognize their role in promoting Islam and their being privileged with the Companionship of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). It is confirmed that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Do not abuse my Companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Mountain Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a mudd or even a half mudd spent by one of them."‏ Allah Almighty says: “And those who came (into the faith) after them say: Our Lord Forgive us and our brethren who were before us in the faith, and place not in our hearts any rancor toward those who believe. Our Lord! Thou art Full of Pity, Mercifl.” (Al-Hashr: 10)]

7- One of the most flagrant violations of this sect is their issuing of wrong fatwas that contradict the Qur'an and the Sunnah. For instance, they consider gambling with non-believers permissible in order to take away their money as long as this does not lead to sedition. Moreover, they consider robbing the harvest and the cattle of non-believers and permissible. They also consider it permissible to deal in Riba (interest) with non-Muslims, and to join lottery games. Moreover, one of their most obvious violations to the principles of religion is their declaration that it is permissible to look lustfully at women, on television or elsewhere, and also that intermingling between men and women without any restrictions is permissible. These are some examples of their weird fatwas that clearly contradict Shari`ah and consider all grave sins as permissible practices.

8- One of their mean ways of making Mulsims abstain from following the scholars of Islam is their belittling of their status, insulting them and labeling many of them as kuffar (non-Muslims). Among the scholars which they labeled as kuffar Ibn Taymiyyah, Adh-Dhahabi, Muhammad ibn Abdel-Wahhab, Sayyed Sabiq, Sayyed Qutb, etc."

Translated excerpts, with modifications, from Al-Mawsu`ah Al-Fiqhiyyah Al-Muyassarah fi Al-Adyan wal Madhahib Al-Mu`asirah.

In this context, we'd like to cite for you the following fatwa issued by the eminent Muslim scholar, Dr. `Ali Jum`ah, Professor of the Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence at Al-Azhar University:

“This sect follows `Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi, and it has surface and deep levels. At the surface, this sect seems to adhere to the Shafi`i School of Jurisprudence, and to Imam Al-Ash`ari’s School as regards creed. However, at the deep level, their main intention is to corrupt the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslim Ummah. Moreover, they are paid agents to the enemies of Islam.

After inciting sedition in Harar, `Abdullah Al-Habashi moved to Beirut where he started deceiving young men into joining his suspected group. He worked as an editor for publishers in Lebanon and started to cooperate with the Jews and their agents in South Lebanon. He started in the seventies to spread his corrupt thoughts and to declare many scholars as non-Muslims, especially Imam Ibn Taymiyyah , Imam Muhammad `Abdul Wahhab , the Hanbalis and all those who held different views from his under the pretext that they violate the principles of Imam Al-Ash`ari or what he has understood from the texts of the Shafi`is .

Moreover, he urged his followers to incite sedition wherever they go. For instance, they cause such a controversy concerning the direction of the Qiblah in America violating all the principles of modern science claiming that they are just innovations and rejecting substantial evidence. They caused the same problem in Japan.

In addition to causing a problem over their following other Muslims in prayers, the problem over food, the controversy over getting married to women belonging to other revealed religions and other issues that are controversial amongst Muslim scholars.

They hold strange deviant views that have never been expressed by any Muslim sect, group or movement. They declared that intermingling between men and women is permissible without any restrictions, and that Muslim leaders are not true believers and that it is permissible to cooperate with non-believers. They also once spread that their leader died then they declared that it was a rumor. In such a way, they made people detest them as they were always linked with sedition. Several Muslim authorities warned against such a sect including: the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar, the General Authority for Research, Fatwas and the Islamic call and guidance in Saudi Arabia, the Higher Council for Fatwas in Northern America.

In order to continue deceiving people, they usually do not express their true views and intentions in the books or any of the publications that they issue. Even the books issued by their leader is quite ordinary and do not contain any of their aberrant views which is, in fact, part of their plan to deceive people and attract more followers. However, many of their followers repent and revert to the true path when they learn the truth about such sect."

Based on the aforementioned facts, we'd like to conclude with the following points:

1- The Ahbash group is a stray group that is not considered among main stream Muslims and they have to revert to the true path of the Companions and their successors, both in belief and in action.

2- It is not permissible to follow the fatwas of such sect.

3- They are not trustworthy and people must be warned against their dangerous corrupt views. Moreover, Muslims should advise the followers of such sect to revert to the true path.

Allah Almighty knows best.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

(source Islamonline.net)

it is a strong refutation, please correct its mistakes if you know it is misguided or factually incorrect and inform me of bias that scholars associated to Islamonline.net may have against the Habashis if this is the case.

Allah knows best brother, i think i will trust my teachers who teach proper islam according to ahlesunnahwaljama'ah over an online source, especially one which defends ibn taymiyya and muhammad ibn abdul wahhab and is against tawasul, the site looks like a wahabi one from what i read, so i definitely give its opinions no value. inshaallah i wont be harmed and will be guided.

[Fertionbratte]

Allah knows best brother, i think i will trust my teachers who teach proper islam according to ahlesunnahwaljama'ah over an online source, especially one which defends ibn taymiyya and muhammad ibn abdul wahhab and is against tawasul, the site looks like a wahabi one from what i read, so i definitely give its opinions no value. inshaallah i wont be harmed and will be guided.

Islam online.net is basically Ikhwani leaning last I heard, however the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar is a different story.

[Saqwnht]

I know the Ahbaash very well. I sat in one the classes of two of the Ahbaash, one was a student of Abdullah al-Harari, and the other a student of a student of Abdullah al-Harari.

They are from Ahle Sunnat wal Jamaat but they have some wrong beliefs.

They call Hazrat Ameer-e-Mu`awiyah (Radhiyallahu `Anhu) a Baaghi (rebel) for having (in their opinion) opposed Hazrat Ali (Karramallahu Wajhahul Kareem.)

They celebrate Milad-un-Nabi (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam). [This itself is not an act of deviation, as there were many `Ulama in the past who permitted under when there are no wrong acts being done, like Allamah Suyuti (Rahmatullah Alayh). But there are rumours that the Ahbaash in some countries celebrate Milad with singing and dancing and birthday cakes with candles, Allahu A`lam. The ones I knew did not celebrate it in that manner.]

One very bad thing about them is there engrossment in `Ilm-ul-Kalaam and Qadar, and such topics which should not be discussed.

They have the belief that Allah Jalla Majdahu exists without a place, (Allaahu Mawjoodun bilaa Makaan) and regard those who do not have this belief as being deviated.

However, our Akabireen of Deoband always held the belief that Allah Ta`ala is everywhere, and do not go into discussions concerning how that is.

Qaala Ta`ala: "Wa Nahnu Aqrabu ilayhi min habliil wareed." wa Qaala Ta`ala: "Wa Huwa ma`akum ayna maa kuntum." wa Qaala Ta`ala: "Maa yakoonu min najwaa thalaathin illaa Huwa Raabi`uhum wa laa khamsatin illaa Huwa Saadisuhum wa laa adnaa min dhalika wa laa akthara illaa Huwa ma`ahum ayna maa kaanoo." wa Qaala Ta`ala: "Laa takhaafaa Innanee ma`akumaa asma`u wa araa." wa Qaala Ta`ala: "Thaaniyath nayni idh humaa fil ghaari idh yaqoolu lisahibihee laa tahzan innallaha ma`anaa." wa Qaala Ta`ala: "Innallaha ma`alladheenat taqow walladheena hum muhsinoon." wa Qaala Ta`ala: "Innallaha ma`as sabireen."

So from all these Ayaat we learn about the Ma`iyyat of Allah. And we believe in it without going into details concerning it.


But on the whole, these people are from Ahlus Sunnah. They are Ash`ari in Aqeedah, Shafi`i in Fiqh, and Rifaa`i in Tareeqah, and their Akhlaaq is very good Mashaa'allah (that is the first thing I noticed about them when I met them.)

I also have most of their books, such as Sharh-ul-Qaweem, as-Siraat al-Mustaqeem, Sareeh-ul-Bayaan fir Raddi `ala man Khaalfal Qur'aan, Durratul Bahiyyah fi Sharhi Aqeedatit Tahaawiyyah, Bughyatut Taalib li Ma`rifati `Ilm ad-Deen al-Waajib, Dharooriyaat-ul-I`tiqaad, etc, and there are no major point of deviation inside them. But still, it is best to avoid this group.

Allahu A`lam.

[baronaaba]

Islam online.net is basically Ikhwani leaning last I heard, however the Islamic Research Academy at Al-Azhar is a different story.

About al-azhar i dont know, ive heard some wierd things coming out of there recently (check out the music in islam thread) and have heard that its only a shell of what it once was.

[immelawealecy]

brother can you tell me anything about these articles. they say the Haba shi group is involved with the Ethiopian government in forcibly indoctrinating people towards the Habashi was of looking things.

http://www.onislam.net/english/news/...ahbashism.html

the same issue covered on reuters

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNew...nnel=0&sp=true

Apparently the CIA and the West in General also favour the Ahbash over other Islamic groups for some reasons?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC9NEg3-Nq4

This Wahhabi Sheikh accuses the Ahbash of being killers, partners with Syrian intelligence, of undermining the Sunnis in Lebanon and helping strengthen the Shiahs. He also says that he had to leave Lebanon 25 years ago so they did not kill him and that they have tried to assassinate him since in Australia.

How can you explain to him that AICP is not what he thinks it is like?

[Adollobdeb]

brother can you tell me anything about these articles. they say the Haba shi group is involved with the Ethiopian government in forcibly indoctrinating people towards the Habashi was of looking things.

http://www.onislam.net/english/news/...ahbashism.html

the same issue covered on reuters

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNew...nnel=0&sp=true

Apparently the CIA and the West in General also favour the Ahbash over other Islamic groups for some reasons?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC9NEg3-Nq4

This Wahhabi Sheikh accuses the Ahbash of being killers, partners with Syrian intelligence, of undermining the Sunnis in Lebanon and helping strengthen the Shiahs. He also says that he had to leave Lebanon 25 years ago so they did not kill him and that they have tried to assassinate him since in Australia.

How can you explain to him that AICP is not what he thinks it is like?

once again, just a bunch of b.s from what i know.

[AccusaJalsBub]

By the way, im not a part of aicp or anything, just defending the good muslims who i know from such false accusations.

[MYMcvBgl]

I generally hold a better opinion of them than salafis. That being said: I wouldn't pray behind them as one of their fitnahs is the wrong qiblah direction.

[Dogxzysl]

I generally hold a better opinion of them than salafis. That being said: I wouldn't pray behind them as one of their fitnahs is the wrong qiblah direction.

Wrong or right?

[AALee]

Wrong or right?

Shafi'i madhhab is very specific about praying in the most accurate qiblah direction possible. If I understand what brother Basil is suggesting, they probably arrive at their qiblah direction by using a flattened map, rather than seeing the earth as a round object. For example, here in southeastern Canada, we pray facing north east. According to people who follow a flat map, the correct direction would be south east. Now, there is leeway on this in the Hanafi madhhab, but there isn't much in the Shafi'i madhhab.

[drexigordiche]

Shafi'i madhhab is very specific about praying in the most accurate qiblah direction possible. If I understand what brother Basil is suggesting, they probably arrive at their qiblah direction by using a flattened map, rather than seeing the earth as a round object. For example, here in southeastern Canada, we pray facing north east. According to people who follow a flat map, the correct direction would be south east. Now, there is leeway on this in the Hanafi madhhab, but there isn't much in the Shafi'i madhhab.

Out of curiosity, exactly how much is the leeway of this in the Hanafi Madhab? Following the flat map qibla is a minor opinion right, and therefore it should be avoided?

[Alexeric]

Out of curiosity, exactly how much is the leeway of this in the Hanafi Madhab? Following the flat map qibla is a minor opinion right, and therefore it should be avoided?

It is 45 degrees in either direction (90 degrees leeway total). The Malikis are the most lenient and allow up to (but not including) a 90 degrees deviation from the direction of the qibla (so in total, a leeway of within 180 degrees).

Of course these positions are only permissible to be followed when the Ka'ba is not visible.

Edit: To clarify, leeway does not mean recommended or permissible when one knows the exact or more accurate direction. So if a Maliki realizes that they're praying 75 degrees from the direction of the Ka'ba, he has to turn during salah to face the more accurate direction. If he is praying about 100 degrees from the Ka'ba, the salah has to be stopped and restarted after facing the correct direction.

The Shafi'i school is the most strict, where the general direction will not suffice and one must make sure to pray in the most accurate direction. This is the mu'tamad opinion of the madhhab. There is another opinion in the Shafi'i madhhab that, like the Hanafis (and the Hanabilah), allows praying in the general direction when one is far away from the Ka'ba.

[ethigSmimbine]

May Allah guide us all in the ahlesunnah wal jama'ah. i know people from them and what they say is all according to ahlesunnah wal jama'ah.

[zlopikanikanz]

Shafi'i madhhab is very specific about praying in the most accurate qiblah direction possible. If I understand what brother Basil is suggesting, they probably arrive at their qiblah direction by using a flattened map, rather than seeing the earth as a round object. For example, here in southeastern Canada, we pray facing north east. According to people who follow a flat map, the correct direction would be south east. Now, there is leeway on this in the Hanafi madhhab, but there isn't much in the Shafi'i madhhab.

There is a difference between direction and shortest distance brother, everyone used to pray southeast before 30-40 years ago (i can only say about ontario for sure though). i dont really want to get into an argument though, since im not a scholar or someone very learned myself.

[DeedPatmeda]

There is a difference between direction and shortest distance brother, everyone used to pray southeast before 30-40 years ago (i can only say about ontario for sure though). i dont really want to get into an argument though, since im not a scholar or someone very learned myself.

Also, finding the qiblah is a personal obligation, and its not possible for everybody to calculate the shortest distance by themselves, a layman will choose SE by himself from north america, and what the older generations of muslims did wasnt to go through some hectic calculations which need scientific advancement etc. .Its not only habashis who say its southeast though. sorry if my paragraph lacks any structure, its late at night and i cant bring myself to put much mental effort into my posts (in terms of style and structure) for the time being.

إِنَّا أُمَّةٌ أُمِّيَّةٌ، لاَ نَكْتُبُ وَلاَ نَحْسبُ
“We are an illiterate nation. We do not write and we do not calculate. ”

Check the explanation of the hadith:
فتح الباري لابن رجب (3 / 67:
ويدل على ذلك من الأدلة الشرعية: قول النبي - صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ -: ((إنا أمة أمية، لا نكتب ولا نحسب، الشهر هكذا وهكذا وهكذا)) ، وخنس إبهامه في الثالثة، ثم قال: ((صوموا لرؤيته، وأفطروا لرؤيته، فإن غم عليكم فأكملوا العدة)) .
فتبين أن ديننا لا يحتاج إلى حساب ولا كتاب
Fathul-Bari by Ibn Rajab: “…The religious evidence that proves that is the saying of the Prophet, ‘We are an illiterate nation. We do not write and we do not calculate. The month is like this and like this…’ …(Ibn Rajab said) So it became clear that our Religion does not need calculations nor writing.”
طرح التثريب في شرح التقريب (4 / 114:
وَالسَّبَبُ الشَّرْعِيُّ لِلْوُجُوبِ إنَّمَا هُوَ الرُّؤْيَةُ لَا عِلْمَ ذَلِكَ بِالْحِسَابِ لِقَوْلِهِ - عَلَيْهِ الصَّلَاةُ وَالسَّلَامُ - فِي الْحَدِيثِ الصَّحِيحِ «إنَّا أُمَّةٌ أُمِّيَّةٌ لَا نَحْسِبُ وَلَا نَكْتُبُ» الْحَدِيثَ انْتَهَى.
وَقَدْ ظَهَرَ بِمَا بَسَطَاهُ صِحَّةُ مَذْهَبِ الْجُمْهُورِ فِي تَعْلِيقِ الْحُكْمِ بِالرُّؤْيَةِ دُونَ غَيْرِهَا وَبِهِ قَالَ مَالِكٌ وَالشَّافِعِيُّ وَأَبُو حَنِيفَةَ وَجُمْهُورُ الْعُلَمَاءِ مِنْ السَّلَفِ وَالْخَلَفِ
Al-^Iraqiyy says “The Religious issue that dictates the obligation is sighting, not the knowledge of that by calculation, because of his saying, ‘We are an illiterate nation. We do not write and we do not calculate.’ The correctness of the school of the majority has become clear by what we have explained with detail, which is making the ruling dependant on sighting, not something else, and this is what Malik, Ash-Shafi^iyy and Abu Hanifah said, and the majority of the scholars of the Salaf and the Khalaf.”
عمدة القاري شرح صحيح البخاري (10 / 286:
وعلق الشَّارِع الصَّوْم وَغَيره بِالرُّؤْيَةِ لرفع الْحَرج عَن أمته
Al-3Ayniyy the Hanafiyy says in the explanation of Sahih Al-Bukhariyy about this hadith ‘We are an illiterate nation’: “The Law Bringer (the Prophet) has made the fasting and other things dependent on sighting, to lift the burden (of calculations) from his nation.”
عمدة القاري شرح صحيح البخاري (13 / 192:
فَإِن قلت: {فاكتبوه} (الْبَقَرَة: 282) . أَمر من الله تَعَالَى، وَثَبت فِي (الصَّحِيحَيْنِ) عَن ابْن عمر، قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُول الله، صلى الله عَلَيْهِ وَسلم: (إِنَّا أمة أُميَّة لَا نكتب وَلَا نحسب) ، فَمَا الْجمع بَينهمَا؟ قلت: إِن الدّين من حَيْثُ هُوَ غير مفتقر إِلَى كِتَابَة أصلا لِأَن كتاب الله قد سهل الله حفظه على النَّاس وَالسّنَن أَيْضا مَحْفُوظَة عَن رَسُول الله، صلى الله عَلَيْهِ وَسلم، وَالَّذِي أَمر بكتابه إِنَّمَا هُوَ أَشْيَاء جزئية تقع بَين النَّاس، فَأمروا أَمر إرشاد لَا أَمر إِيجَاب، كَمَا ذهب إِلَيْهِ، وَهُوَ مَذْهَب الْجُمْهُور، فَإِن كتب فَحسن، وَإِن ترك فَلَا بَأْس.
And he says: “If you say {فاكتبوه} (which means) - is an order from Allah to write, but it is confirmed from the Messenger of Allah: ‘We are an illiterate nation, we do not write and we do not calculate’, so how do you put those two together (so to avoid contradiction)? I say: The Religion in itself is not in need of writing in the first place, because Allah made memorizing the Book of Allah easy on the people, and the Sunnahs are also memorized (or preserved) from the Messenger of Allah. What was ordered (in the Qur’an) to be written is only some particular matters that take place among the people. They were ordered with an order to guide them (to a benefit), not an order of obligation… and this is the school of the majority. If one wrote, it is good, and he did not, there is no problem.” some good links i saw on this:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...-north-america

http://www.mediamonitors.net/afzalkhan1.html

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/arch...p/t-29701.html

[neotheMit]

What you have quoted refers to months and times. You won't find many people here who would disagree with that. Most of us think it necessary to visibly sight the moon and not rely on calculations for months. Jews and Christians have been using calculations for a very long time, but only recently have Muslims started to resort to calculations for determining the beginning and ending of months.

We cannot expand this to everything, though. For example, do you or do any of the Habashis always go out and look at the sky to determine the time of prayer? The time of prayer in most areas has been calculated. So, we know at what time 'Asr will be and what time Fajr starts from calculations and you won't find many, if any, detractors.

As for the qiblah, in the Shafi'i madhhab, it is obligatory to pray in the most accurate direction. In fact, if someone who is able to calculate the most accurate direction were to tell a Shafi'i that his direction in his salah was deviated, that person would have to repeat his salah.