[joe-salton]

How many users have a very deep desire to see Islamic moral values influencing and inspiring the people of the west? We failed twice militarily to penetrate the gates of vienna and Islam through most of its existence has failed to penetrate the western mind despite in their existence orientalists who have done detailed studies and commentary on the religion for their lay to understand. As our duty continues to spread this global message, how can we convince the westerners that Islam is their salvation, their goodness and the serenity treasure of the mind/soul which they have been missing.

Who agrees with the argument that transition dawah is probably different then dawah of perfection which is done to already experienced muslims?

Is the fact that we dont make that arbitrary distinction hurting dawah efforts?

Shouldnt penetration of Western civilization through a transition dawah which is more liberal and accepting of music, relaxed dresscode, not challenging other benign religious-neutral ethics and concepts perceived as precious to the Westerners be pursued?

Should that dawah emphasize instead love, mercy, compassion, beliefs and Aqeedah of Muslims, charity, brotherhood, selflessness, theology, friendliness, serenity of mind and soul. The focal point is love in Islam for Allah, his worship and strive for goodness.

I would argue deobandi dawah efforts will be ineffective in the west. I argue that a transition dawah be recognized which does not go into arguments about things the westerners really like and have large consensus and some of which are still being debated in muslim circles or which are peripheries or which atleast have some room for acceptance. This is in reference to taking either a more liberal or indifferent/passive approach to music, dress-code, democracy, hudud laws in the context of a nation state, monogamy, negation of authoritarianism, socio-conversational/occupational inter-mingling of sexes, men-women equality and other concepts which are peripherals and not core-religious issues. If we get groups and individuals who really dont keep on criticising, challenging and deriding western civilization for these things and just go about always talking these things only and who instead really know how to present love, goodness, compassion, brotherhood and mercy in Islam and Islam's compatiblity with most things modern/advance than we will make an impact. I am talking of limiting criticism to inherent validity of concepts like music not about hip-hop dirtness or lewdity which most westerners themselves despise. Another example apostacy - if argue with westerners we should take a liberal approach and say apostates can reject Islam if they want - they have freedom of choice - that will characterize a transition dawah approach. In perfection dawah we can say there is difference of opinion and detail those. A western mind is strongly averse to the idea that a person be beheaded for rejecting a religion he was formerly in. The first stop itself will be I am looking into a religion which will demand my death if I enter it and decide to leave it after experiencing it.

If one is to make a compromise on some peripheral and perhaps ambiguous Islamic rulings and conclusions to challenge and convince otherwise a irreligious population's core beliefs will he be doing good or more bad? I would argue that that compromise is justified. After that transition dawah direction to more perfection dawah can be channeled.

Where did I get this conclusion - from this axiom summary - Who cares if they die not good Muslims but we should all care and worry if they die rejecting Islam because of small issues of distraction. IS that thinking justified?

[xqdrocherz]

What you are suggesting won't work. I personally find it dishonest to begin with, and besides, anyone with an internet connection can find out for himself what the shariah says about the murtad, or music, or dress codes. If the kafir asks you about these issues, what will you do? Lie to him? No offense or anything, but your idea doesn't make any sense to me.

qul in kuntum tuhibbun Allaha fa tabiuniy

Love for Allah cannot be complete without following shariah. Anyway, nobody says that you should discuss the ahkam when first giving dawah. The point of dawah is to establish iman first. Once iman is there, obedience to ahkam should follow naturally. If not, the person will be a sinner, but still Muslim. If a person thinks logically, then he won't let his distaste for the rules be a hurdle in his honest evaluation of the truth or falsity of the religion.

I wouldn't discount jihad as a means of dawah. Right now the Muslims are weak, so it won't work, but that doesn't mean it can't ever happen again.

[7kitthuptarill]

My dear sincere brother, what you are suggesting I must say in your own way is a sincere opinion, but a sincere opinion is not necessarily the right one. As Muslims we must first understand that Hidaya (guidance) comes from Allah Alone. No one can give guidance. No prophet, No Beloved of Allah, No Saint... No one except Allah. Thus with this understanding we must do our dawah. How should we do dawah? The Qur'aan repeatedly mentions that dawaat of the Ambiyaa (AS) so that we can understand how to do it. Just because all my friends are smoking... for the sake of dawah I cannot start smoking. We must act in the manner of Nabi . My dear friend.. at the end of the day the best dawah is not big or articulated speeches but rather ahklaaq (good character) Good character speaks louder than words. The act of helping someone, assisting someone, inviting someone to one's house, lowering one's gaze, the manner of our walking/talking/sleeping/eating/interacting etc.. is all a means of dawah. If we go against the teaching of Nabi for the sake of dawah then we have really lost the plot. Since when we give dawah, we give it with the intention that I am most in need of what is being said. Everyone is capable of doing their bit, some feel that becoming more western will enable a better dawah.. but dawah is in the *hands* of Allah. The help of Allah comes to those who follow his Messenger. Look.. no matter how much you try to appease the West, their will always be a problem. So dont bother. Many have come to Islam not because of people appeasing them, rather due to people's strong Imaan and good Aklaaq. May Allah give us all the tawfeeq(abitlity) to understand. Ameen

[Niobaralegra]

What you are suggesting won't work.

I personally find it dishonest to begin with, and besides, anyone with an internet connection can find out for himself what the shariah says about the murtad, or music, or dress codes.

Once iman is there, obedience to ahkam should follow naturally.

I wouldn't discount jihad as a means of dawah.

for your opinion.

No one is saying lie about issues to the Westerners but rather promote and make legitimate transition dawah groups and individuals who either believe in the validity of these things or who focus on only important things concerning Iman and love of Allah.

For e.g I would argue that people like tahir-ul-qadri and harun yahya would probably be more effective in western settings than a traditional deobandi Alim or a traditional saudi-salafist for alluring the westerners to Islam. We should therefore promote the works of the former amongst the western audience. I would also say Abdul-hakim Murad, Suheib webb and all other more liberal leaning Muslims need to be supported.

Its obvious Iman needs to emphasize first thats why I am saying this things. Now just imagine a person who is a general da'ee, one day he talks about love of Allah, the second about beheading apostates, the third about compassion in ISlam, the fourth about calling liberally dressed women prostitutes deserving of rape, the fifth about charity in Islam, the sixth about the curse of beethoven, taylor swift and any other clean musician. I hope you are getting my point. Rather talk everyday about Iman, compassion, tolerance, advancement, mental serentiy and avoid those topics or be liberal in them.

I am tallking about effectiveness of dawah in Islam. I am saying if you believe in the conservative strain in Islam dont displace, deride, weaken the transitional da'ees if they are making an impact in the west. Call them proper legitimate muslims and limit antagonism to muslim circles and countries and argue against their opinions in a spirit of intellectualism or rather work to making your group the strongest in Islamic cultures if you really believe you are the best. But dont aim for being the best by being the most vocal to people who wont even listen to you or who perceive opinions as annoying brays in the first place. You will see most westerners commenting we dont want to go back to the 7th century or the desert because of all these peripheral opinions which Muslims in the west make -ban music, soccer, entertainment, make women niqabi, liberal women are whores, women in the home must, beard must, shirt-trouser haram, trouser above ankle must, talk with women haram, islam rejection head cut off, assaultive-offensive jihad e.t.c e.t.c.

Look at 01:00 - 01:10 and 06:50 - 07:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQzuFrMRA3M
The guy strutters to validate or convince in a strong intellectually sound manner. If another scholar like Shaykh Murad was there he would probably eat away at the argument by providing evidence of scholars who dont believe apostasy deserves beheading.

Many of the beliefs of taliban also can be justified within the wider deobandi intellectual realm and daily modes of teachings of deobandies and these are all unappealing version calls of Islam in the west.
So what I am saying that these groups would be ineffective in their dawah to westerners.

Remember I am talking about effectiveness and am not antagonizing these other traditional groups and individuals or arguing about their invalidness. I think they should just give preference to other people who are better equipped to do the job and promote these rather than themselves in certain settings.
If on the other hand I was talking to Muslims I would tell them learn Iman, love, goodness, modernity, friendliness, intellectual pursuit and tolerance from Harun Yahya and traditional religious fiqh/ilm from Deobandis'.

[LindaSmithXV]

[mincarlie.frymyer]

You sure you aren't an HY stooge? I remember a post where you said something about not having anything to do with him (other than having read his work)... and yet here we are... yet again.

Now the effort is to put HY on the same footing as real scholars? Seriously? Is this phase 2 of the show or something...

Red-herring/smoke-show indeed.

I have edited my last sentences and added what we should learn from harun yahya.
Further more may Allah clear your antagonism towards the master. In your antagonism you didnt look at the topic also. Effective dawah for the westerners. If you have talked to a typical white western young modern male or female you would realize the things I say are true about introducing religion to them from a more approachable source. You would be bold to talk about harun yahya things rather than a traditional-conservative one. Can you show me a book where I can give a european young man what love of Allah means in Islam or why reason is very important in religion from a deobandi scholar? CAn you show me a book which directly targets atheism from a western perspective by tackling evolution?

[ViagraPriceBuying]

Dawah by nature is transitory.
If we look at the Makkah period it has just the nurturing of faith - Tauheed, Risalah, Aakhirah. Things like major sins, for example drinking, are present but nothing is being said about them.
Islam is a journey, and a mighty one in that. We all travel together but there are different levels.
We should not demand the highest level from all.
There was this incident of a Bedouin who just wanted to do the minimal part and beloved Prophet (PBUH) said that if he is true to his promise then he is a man of Jannah.
So many people in India entered the fold of Islam due the efforts of the Sufis (and of course the traders.)
There Islamic training is being done now.
So we got to go ahead with our Dawah and leave the perfection, or even initial training to those who are adapt at that task. Jama-'at-ut-Tabligh is a nice effort for that at the mass level for simple minded people.
I suppose this should work even in the west for everyone there is not a deep intellectual.
I understand the concerns of the OP - people pay too much attention to other people's shortcomings.
It is true that we should not ignore slightest lacuna in our beliefs for it might destroy your faith but while thinking of that aspect we ignore the other aspect. That is, faith even if we have a smallest ingredient of it has the capability to take us to Jannah one day.
I do understand the point raised by brother NNoor. Actually we need not bother about it. If someone is stuck at the door of Islam because of the terrible fate of a Murtad then, in my view, this will be a case in rather few cases. Let us ignore them. The task in front of us is gigantic and we got to go ahead.

[Hetgvwic]

I'll learn those from our beloved Prophet thank you very much!

I do not respect HY, I am highly suspicious of the show, and again, I would advise people to be very careful with this whole thing known as HY. There is something extremely fishy going on here... besides, AO does not speak in kind terms, he belittles people quite frequently - mostly other Muslims. I do not take him as a role model for anything. He is not a scholar. I highly doubt that he has authored anything, let alone hundreds of books. He goes around in circles when speaking - always the same old message - not worthy of hundreds of books... but easy enough for a single man to learn and repeat, repeat, repeat. He is deceptive. I do not sense sincerity in him - neither in his demeanor nor in his words.

[johobuo]

I'll learn those from our beloved Prophet thank you very much!

I do not respect HY, I am highly suspicious of the show, and again, I would advise people to be very careful with this whole thing known as HY. There is something extremely fishy going on here... besides, AO does not speak in kind terms, he belittles people quite frequently - mostly other Muslims. I do not take him as a role model for anything. He is not a scholar. I highly doubt that he has authored anything, let alone hundreds of books. He goes around in circles when speaking - always the same old message - not worthy of hundreds of books... but easy enough for a single man to learn and repeat, repeat, repeat. He is deceptive. I do not sense sincerity in him - neither in his demeanor nor in his words.

Good on you sister. Next time you meet your new euro-canadian friend who goes university and who is ethno-centric in his world view dont ever mention the two hundred fifty books of harun yahya on religion - love of Allah, fear of Allah, atheism and evolution, the nightmare of disbelief, books on unity, miracles in birds and the universe and all other titles. Hide all this work in your soul and dont bother that they might help someone easily to open up his mind esp. of that background.

[Dertrioz]

Hmmmm... phase 3... convince people that the only way to do dawah in the 'west' is through HY... as if all those who converted pre-HY, over the 1400 years of history were aided by HY.

Allah guides whom He Wills.

[edit: moved edit to new post.]

[DexOnenlyCymn]

My impression is that people like Shabir Ally and the like are more suited for west and not Tahir-ul-Qadri or Adnan Oktar. In fact I am surprised at Tahir-ul-Qadri's name - difficult to associate him with Dawah. Any way people like Abdur Raheem Green, Yusuf Estes in one league and Abdul Hakim Murad, Hamza Yusuf in another are doing a lot already so it will not be a bad idea to adopt their methodology of Dawah. To simple minded and sincere audience, in my view, Siraj Wahhaj tops even people like Shaikh Ahmed Deedat. I think there need not be much ado before we hit the road. Let us not get distracted and go for Dawah. Please chill out on personal differences.

[GuitarLoverBe]

Hmmmm... phase 3... convince people that the only way to do dawah in the 'west' is through HY... as if all those who converted pre-HY, over the 1400 years of history were aided by HY.

Allah guides whom He Wills.

As brother Maripat said the sufis brought Islam to india. Look at the topic post. Effectiveness of dawah to the westerners in the west. I have mentioned that other groups and their opinions are not invalid and I am not arguing against their spread and debate within Muslim social contexts. I am just saying what would be more effective way of presenting Islam to the westerners. A transition dawah which is more efficient and effective in bringing people towards ISlam. Along that lines I suggested nearly four scholars and their styles/beliefs. So please respond to the topic like how NNoor said that it wont work and gave her reasons in principle one of which was she thought it was dishonest presuming that we should present scholars who are lying and not honest in their opinions where as I was talking about people who believe in their liberal beliefs and see them legitimate or dont talk about controversial issues.

I dont also understand what you are talking about ......phases and all.

[tmobmobfil]

No need to compromise on honesty, sincerity, righteousness, and closeness to Allah in order to bait people in. Have you not read some of the conversion stories here? A sister converted because a male co-worker lowered his gaze... subhan'Allah! Honesty speaks volumes! Alhamdulillah for the sisters and brothers here because they provide a contemporary context for sunnah, without compromise, and I've learned so much from them alhamdulillah. May Allah reward each and every one who has been a means for me and may they be given the strength to continue as they have and increase in their strength, and may He allow me to advance in my imaan and taqwa and help others in turn. Ameen. The sister could have easily not taken much meaning from the averted gaze and I could have easily been moved to go elsewhere or ignore it all but no... for anyone who puts their hand to their heart, their ear to their heart, their heart to their heart... there is no mistaking the barakah in following sunnah, and here (on SF) masha'Allah. There are 'western' non-Muslims (some who eventually convert to Islam), new converts to Islam, and born Muslims who appreciate the efforts of those who follow sunnah as much as possible.

What I see as perhaps the most dangerous aspect of the HY formula is how it divides Muslims (further). As is seen in your OP post - modern vs. traditional; kind vs. traditional; loving vs. traditional; caring vs. traditional... and seen elsewhere - east vs. west; mullah vs. civilized... Que?! Brother, don't fall prey to this tactic. A loving, caring Muslim brother would not mislead you. He is calling on you to be complacent while he spews insults on YOUR Muslim brothers. While Muslims are being killed and hurt in many places around the world, He calls on Muslims (particularly Turks) to be patient - patiently wait and endure the hunger we see our brothers and sisters suffering, the torture we see some brothers and sisters being put through, injustice we see some brothers and sisters enduring... are they less valuable than the Turks, the civilized, the 'western'? What kind of reverse-socialdarwinism is this? And we are to watch it all in patience? Que?! Divide the Muslims yet unite with the Jews and Christians. At least, that is what HY implies the 'modern' 'civilized' 'non-Mullah' 'loving' 'caring' Muslim needs to do... loving towards the Jews with whom we are to stand side-by-side and watch patiently as our brothers and sisters are being tortured. No, this is dangerous indeed and the glitz and glamour is nothing but smoke to cover it all up.

[FreeOEMcheapestPHOTOSHOP]

there is no mistaking the barakah in following sunnah, and here (on SF) masha'Allah.

What I see as perhaps the most dangerous aspect of the HY formula is how it divides Muslims (further).

While Muslims are being killed and hurt in many places around the world, He calls on Muslims (particularly Turks) to be patient -

No, this is dangerous indeed and the glitz and glamour is nothing but smoke to cover it all up.

1. No one is denying the benefits of sunnah for the Muslims.

2. Joke statement. Your praise of this forum for following the sunnah and as a caller to unity and the divisionist attitudes of many here is in deep contrast. You wont find any Muslim so pro-unity like Harun yahya. He even defends the wahabbis infront of an Iranian delegation who had started criticizing them. And he defends shias against those who intend to harm them. He talks about bigotry and never targets any muslim group in particular.

3. His emphasis on turkish-islamic union and subsequent defense of all muslim lands is a great ambition and objective and one of the most clearest aspect of his mind-set and dawah. Have you made yourself known to the Muslim world by your works and then suggested a way for Muslim honor to be preserved? If not dont deride or deny his intention to help Muslims.

4. Glitz and glamour we learn from Hazrat Suleiman a.s.. If you have a problem with a particular glamour trend of attire by the master you can make your husband avoid wearing any three-piece again or shirt or trousers. Dont spread that glitz and glamour is haram.

[leareliovag]

From here:

DA'WAH IN THE SEERAH

As you are aware, the Prophet (sallallahu-alayhi-wasallam), had a burning desire to invite humanity towards Islam. Despite 13 years of untiring effort in Makkatul-Mukarramah and 7 years in Madinatul-Munawwarah, there was no large scale movement of non-Muslims into Islam. Between 7 AH and 10 AH, which is the period after Fath-Makkah until the Prophet's demise, there was such an influx of people entering the ranks of Islam that was not witnessed in the preceding 20 years.
Imam Zuhri (rahmatullahi-alayh), an eminent Muhaddith and Tabii, expressed surprise on this sea change, with so many people embracing Islam in a matter of just 3 years. Along with other distinguished Muhaddith he has commented that this was due to non-Muslims having had an opportunity for the first time, to observe and intermingle with Muslims, witness their honesty, fair dealing, compassion and sole reliance on Almighty Allah. This left such a deep and profound impression on non-Muslims that thousands entered into the fold of Islam within a relatively short period of time. My impression is another - there is a gap between Dawah and heavy influx into Islam. Dawah is grueling and the results are not immediate. If It was a life time project for Shaikh Muinuddin Chishti (RA) then we do have Islam in India today. If we do not have Islam in Spain today then may be it is because there was no Chishti there. Wallahualam.

[Xfxhbcxp]

Where did I get this conclusion - from this axiom summary - Who cares if they die not good Muslims but we should all care and worry if they die rejecting Islam because of small issues of distraction. IS that thinking justified?

Absolutely not. Speaking as a western revert this wouldn't approach have worked on me at all, and probably would have driven me away from Islam, a'udhu billah. What drew me to Islam, aside from reading the Qur'an and (Allah making me) realize it was the truth, was the fact that our Prophet and his companions practiced what they preached. If people came to me with the approach you've suggested I would have reached the conclusion that Muslims are wishy-washy weirdos like Christians, who don't actually follow what they profess to believe (a'udhu billah). Not to mention someone being told one thing like: "Music is permissible LOLOLOL" and then finding out that it is completely haraam, will make it seem like whoever gave them dawa was lying to them and doing it in order to "trick" them into becoming Muslims—which could very easily take someone into kufr (a'udhu billah).

Who cares if they die not good Muslims And this? This is an abominable thing to say. Are you serious?
Anas relates that the Prophet said: “None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]

we have the truth. Al Islam is the truth, we don't need to dress it up or play games or hide things (a'udhu billah) to try to get people to like it.

[picinaRefadia]

Assalamu Alaikum Brother,

Are you embarrassed of Islam? Are you embarrassed of the sunnah of our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam)? Because one only hides those things which one is embarrassed of. When someone is in love with something, then they want the entire world to know. Alhamdullillah, we Muslims love Allah, we love His beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), we love the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), we love the Quran and we love the religion of Islam.

What you are calling ambiguous Islamic rulings, are not ambiguous at all. There are a bunch of people who consider themselves scholars, who paint these clear rulings as ambiguous. Yet for those who have sound traditional knowledge and who have spent their entire life studying, teaching and propagating Islam under scholars with proper sanad, be they from Arab or Ajam, these rulings are as clear as daylight for them.

And what you are calling "deobandi dawah efforts" which according to you is ineffective, is the dawah which has had the greatest effect worldwide. Did you know that it is only one deobandi scholar whose students/khalifas have built and are running madrasas in over five countries? The students of these students are propagating the real Deen, not the watered down "Deen" that the neo-scholars are propagating, and many Muslims have been guided through them, and many non-Muslims have accepted Islam on their hands. And this is only one scholar, there are many others.

And it is the "Deobandi dawah efforts" through the Tableegh effort that has revived the dead hearts of millions of Muslims, who were embarrassed of being known or being perceived as Muslim, but now they want the world to know that they are Muslim and they want everyone to enter this beautiful religion.

We should strive our best to act completely according to the Sunnah, just like the Sahaba (radi Allahu anhum) did. Islam spread because they acted on all aspects of Deen, not just what pleased others.

If we will be embarrassed of our religion, then how will we face Allah on the Day of Judgment? Is it that Allah who is perfect has given us an imperfect religion, that we need to hide some of it? If we will be embarrassed of the Sunnah of our Beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), then how will we face him? Should we bend our religion to please others? Or should we bend ourselves to fully enter into Islam?

music, dress-code, democracy, hudud laws in the context of a nation state, monogamy, negation of authoritarianism, socio-conversational/occupational inter-mingling of sexes, men-women equality

So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
Surat Al-Baqarah, verse 85.

And the usual remark of “causing division” is a typical remark used against those who want to hold strongly to the truth. In that case, the Prophets were the first ones to cause division. This division is called separating the truth from falsehoold. Those who do not understand, call it division. Those who understand, call it propagating the truth.

Propagating Islam has its etiquettes which is covered mainly in Surah Al-Araf. If we were even slightly familiar with our Quran, we would not have such backward ideas of bending Islam or hiding it to propagate it.

What Allah requires us to do is to propagate the truth (Haqq), and that is as far as our responsibility goes, and guidance is upto Allah. Is Allah not watching our every move? Is he not watching the non-Muslims that we present Islam to?

There is so much that needs to be said on this topic, that the heart weeps when your opening posts are read.

P.S. And our "Master" is our Beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), and noone else.

[TainuibeFaimb]

brother Arif - some things can be told by converts only.

And this? This is an abominable thing to say. Are you serious?

Actually brother Mubakr is toying with ideas and he finds that it is more important to worry about people dying in state of non-Islam rather than improving the Islam of those who are already in the pail of Islam. His argument has some validity but luckily Ummah is large enough that we do not have to make a choice.

[Gozmand]

Assalamu Alaikum Brother,

Are you embarrassed of Islam?

And what you are calling "deobandi dawah efforts" which according to you is ineffective, is the dawah which has had the greatest effect worldwide. And it is the "Deobandi dawah efforts" through the Tableegh effort that has revived the dead hearts of millions of Muslims

There is so much that needs to be said on this topic, that the heart weeps when your opening posts are read.

And our "Master" is our Beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), and noone else.

1. No I am not. I am trying to suggest so clearly that dawah has to be modified slightly for westerners as compared to Muslims.

2. I will re-iterate - for European/other western influenced young or middle aged - deobandi dawah calling is ineffective. Their mentality is abit different. Deoband dawah is good for Muslims. Very good I must add. I understand its benefits totally for pre-existing Muslims.

3. Dont weep. Its a simple topic of discussion.

4. You sound like Ahle-Hadith. I am hanafi. We are Ahl e' Ray. We follow opinions and teachings of great Muslims. HY is a great Muslim for me even if has no traditional scholarship. I find him a great teacher especially for non-Muslims and his books are invaluable for non-Muslim dawah.

[Roxanjbra]

Actually brother Mubakr is toying with ideas and he finds that it is more important to worry about people dying in state of non-Islam rather than improving the Islam of those who are already in the pail of Islam. His argument has some validity but luckily Ummah is large enough that we do not have to make a choice.

Thanks for clarifying I wanted to adjust that statement in my paragraph to avoid misunderstandings.