[stastony]

brother Arif - some things can be told by converts only.



Actually brother Mubakr is toying with ideas and he finds that it is more important to worry about people dying in state of non-Islam rather than improving the Islam of those who are already in the pail of Islam. His argument has some validity but luckily Ummah is large enough that we do not have to make a choice.

السلام عليكم

May Allah (SWT) bestows you with His Choicest rewards for the Husn Dhann for this brother.

[WUlcN1Rz]

I've read a few of the Harun Yahya books. Most of them are very low-level works that belie a real understanding of the topics the author is discussing. An "educated" Westerner would just have a good laugh at them.

Also, there is no categorizing the "Western educated" mindset. Each person is different. Some will refuse to accept a good rational argument, even though they know it's correct. Most don't have the proper education or mental capacity to understand a logical argument, since they don't even teach formal logic anymore. They just want to go about their lives and enjoy. I have tried to discuss religion with atheists and the one common thread I've found in most of them, is that they just don't want to think about the issue. They are just atheists because it's seen as the hip thing to be. Most human beings don't think about why they do things, and they don't want to. Usually, with the force of philosophical argument, I can get them to accept that there needs to be an initial cause of the universe with some attributes of divinity, but beyond that, they just say "I don't believe in organized religion" and stop the conversation. And really, how can you convince a person in one sitting about the linguistic uniqueness of the Quran, true prophecies of Muhammad , etc. It's simply not possible.

Like one person mentioned, the hyper-intellectual approach is usually not good for dawah. The best vehicle for dawah to the kuffar nowadays is to have good akhlaq and to purify oneself.

PS If people saw the "sufis" who spread Islam in Asia nowadays, they would think they were Taliban extremist fundamentalist etc.

[dafodilkemmy]

Didnt read all posts, but read OP..anyway...!

Once someone among our elders said "Ummat ko mushahida ka deen pesh karo" (Show practical deen to ummah)

i dont know anyone , nor efforts of anyone nor i suggest anything else except what suhabah did...!

Suhabah didnt talk much for dawah they showed their practical islam and people from different religions would come into islam...!

8 suhabah went china, today there are crores of muslims....!

what did those 8 suhabah did there any lecture, posted books, posted posters, discussed things, the answer is a big NO...they did business according to shariah, when people saw their business they were impressed and they told them who are you, suhaba replied we are muslims and this business is taught in islam, people at that instant accepted islam...!


i guess you people got my point, well...make efforts on muslims to make them true muslims, once we become true muslims, others will come into islam, their are many karguzaries of jamaats, who walked from certain places and people from different religions accepted islam by just watching their way of walking since this effort dont use posters and books and internet so these karguzaries (experiences) are hidden from masses...anyway....Allah help you all in your sincere efforts...!

Let us make practical more than theory...hope something dont went wrong...!



Request for duas

[ViagraFeller]

=mubakr;809235]

How many users have a very deep desire to see Islamic moral values influencing and inspiring the people of the west? We failed twice militarily to penetrate the gates of vienna and Islam through most of its existence has failed to penetrate the western mind despite in their existence orientalists who have done detailed studies and commentary on the religion for their lay to understand. As our duty continues to spread this global message, how can we convince the westerners that Islam is their salvation, their goodness and the serenity treasure of the mind/soul which they have been missing.
I think you are mistaken if you think orientalists studied Islam because they had a genuine desire to learn the truth. They learnt it so they could use it to corrupt the Muslims and colonize us. Some of them will praise aspects of Islam but say it is now a 'spent force' which should be integrated into the newer and better way that they follow. Muslim communities in the west need to sort themselves out...this will be a dawa in itself. Imagine if Muslim areas have zero crime, zero conflict and if all Muslims simply live honest hard working lives, not ripping anyone off, not harming anyone etc. Caring for the elderly, the young, the sick as a community...even making the street look clean and tidy. This will be the best dawa.


Indonesians embraced Islam by meeting Muslims through trade and commerce. An honest business person in an age of lies and greed is like a beacon of light.

[drexigordiche]

I've read a few of the Harun Yahya books. Most of them are very low-level works that belie a real understanding of the topics the author is discussing. An "educated" Westerner would just have a good laugh at them.

The best vehicle for dawah to the kuffar nowadays is to have good akhlaq and to purify oneself.

1. You are amongst very few Muslims who actually say his book are worthless in content. The vast majority of Muslim either praise or are suspicious that its not a one-man work. There is educated westerners who are fundamental atheists who laugh at his books. Thats fine people laughed at even prophets all the time so who is Harun Yahya.

2. The second point is misleading. Good Akhlaq is important but most dawah is done over the internet, books, videos, youtube, public forums and speeches. Showing good akhlaq is not enough to convert ideological people. People will think you are a good man but may still think you are intellectually unsound. Even many non-muslims have good akhlaq so what does that suppose to mean? Mandela, Ghandi and many others. If I meet western people I see most of them as polite and non-trouble makers. Does that mean I should join their religion? What logic is that? Akhlaq is good to prove that your religion also produces goodness but mainly its the ideologies, beliefs and intellectual basis which make up a religion. Reason is one of the main way which leads man to religion. Akhlaq is an adjunct not the primary basis to lead you to truth. If I see a person with good akhlaq I dont have a choice to follow his religion, I can change my akhlaq to follow him. But if want to change my beliefs and religion I have to be ideologically convinced and my reason should be liberated and aligned with the truth.

[weO1bVp1]

I cant say better than many here. That is the pure deception that one should deviate from deen to give dawah to non-muslims. The reason for no effective dawah work is infact bcos we muslims deviated from embracing islam in its true sense. Had we lived as commanded by Allah SWT, that would have brought many people into fold of islam just like how our ancestors embraced Islam and today we are in millions. Islam is the deen of Allah SWT teaching highest standard of modesty, moral and human values and all these values strongly reflected from those who sincerely followed Islam. We are obliged to present the deen like how it is. When this thought is firmly embedded in our hearts that guidance is only in hands of Allah SWT alone, we won't adopt haram means in the name of dawah. Even a Prophet (AS) doesnt have the power to make one Muslim unless Allah :swt: wills. So adopting anything disliked and forbidden by Islam in the name of dawah or anything will only turn out harmful to the one adopting it. Allahu alam

[astefecyAvevy]

Muslim communities in the west need to sort themselves out...this will be a dawa in itself. Imagine if Muslim areas have zero crime, zero conflict and if all Muslims simply live honest hard working lives, not ripping anyone off, not harming anyone etc. Caring for the elderly, the young, the sick as a community...even making the street look clean and tidy. This will be the best dawa.

That is an adjunct to the primary dawah. The prophet had immense Akhlaq even before the call. PEople joined Islam through preaching and advocacy. Aisha and Abubakr were particularly notable for their delivery of Islam and convincing abilities. I have seen many people with beautiful akhlaq but who are not good in their dawah. Malays are a good example. Their akhlaq is generally very good but they dont emphasize dawah to non-muslim chinese and indians. In that way they lose the ability to engage the chinese and indians. Most malays have incredible akhlaq but chinese and indians are still not impressed by the religion. Why because the Malays have not intellectually challenged budhism or atheism in their non-Muslim society.

[thakitt]

1. You are amongst very few Muslims who actually say his book are worthless in content. The vast majority of Muslim either praise or are suspicious that its not a one-man work. There is educated westerners who are fundamental atheists who laugh at his books. Thats fine people laughed at even prophets all the time so who is Harun Yahya.

2. The second point is misleading. Good Akhlaq is important but most dawah is done over the internet, books, videos, youtube, public forums and speeches. Showing good akhlaq is not enough to convert ideological people. People will think you are a good man but may still think you are intellectually unsound. Even many non-muslims have good akhlaq so what does that suppose to mean? Mandela, Ghandi and many others. If I meet western people I see most of them as polite and non-trouble makers. Does that mean I should join their religion? What logic is that? Akhlaq is good to prove that your religion also produces goodness but mainly its the ideologies, beliefs and intellectual basis which make up a religion. Reason is one of the main way which leads man to religion. Akhlaq is an adjunct not the primary basis to lead you to truth. If I see a person with good akhlaq I dont have a choice to follow his religion, I can change my akhlaq to follow him. But if want to change my beliefs and religion I have to be ideologically convinced and my reason should be liberated and aligned with the truth.

I'd be willing to bet that the "vast majority" of Muslims never heard of Harun Yahya. Can you tell me what exactly about Harun Yahya books make for compelling dawah, and how much of that isn't also available on Christian creationist and missionary websites?

Kuffar may have good akhlaq, but they have no noor with them. This is not a logical thing. But it happens. People are attracted to the muttaqeen. It's a spiritual thing. Why did the Arabs believe in Nabi ? Because of his perfect akhlaq and his truthfulness, as well as the beauty of the quran. I don't think his preaching involved a whole lot of philosophical argumentation. The other form of dawah in the time of the Prophet was through conquest.

Anyway, isn't this getting off-topic? Your argument was, I think, that presenting a watered-down version of Islam makes for better dawah. I still don't see how that would work for reasons I already mentioned.

PS Unlike the "vast majority" of Muslims, I majored in both philosophy and bio. I think if I didn't have that background, I would probably find Harun Yahya's pseudo-intellectual works more appealing.

[inve.tment]

It is rare for the kuffar to have good akhlaq...they have sweet words, and polite behaviour, usually only when they want something, hardly anyone does anything for nothing. Yes you get some amazing non believers who do good things for others but they are very rare dawa needs to be a community effort....all Muslims within any community should be on their best behaviour, our schools, leaders and families should inculcate this in us from an early age. It is sunna to smile, it is sunna to say a pleasant word to someone. I find it hard to smile...abit grumpy I need to change and struggle with myself.

[rhybrisee]

I'd be willing to bet that the "vast majority" of Muslims never heard of Harun Yahya.

Can you tell me what exactly about Harun Yahya books make for compelling dawah, and how much of that isn't also available on Christian creationist and missionary websites?

Kuffar may have good akhlaq, but they have no noor with them. This is not a logical thing. But it happens. People are attracted to the muttaqeen. It's a spiritual thing. Why did the Arabs believe in Nabi ? Because of his perfect akhlaq and his truthfulness, as well as the beauty of the quran. The other form of dawah in the time of the Prophet was through conquest.

Anyway, isn't this getting off-topic? Your argument was, I think, that presenting a watered-down version of Islam makes for better dawah. I still don't see how that would work for reasons I already mentioned.

PS Unlike the "vast majority" of Muslims, I majored in both philosophy and bio. I think if I didn't have that background, I would probably find Harun Yahya's pseudo-intellectual works more appealing.

1. Betting is haram. I advise you to stay away inshAllah.

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drq1OB-siQE

3. Attraction. I am attracted to beautiful women and sometimes feel many non-muslim females are innocent but I dont follow their religion because it is unsound and doesnot resonate with conscience. But if I can convince all those beautiful women in the west that Islam is the most perfectly reasonable thing to follow and it shows great love, compassion, charitability and selflessness without talking about cutting off heads, bigotry, women-discrimination and condemnin music I am sure they will all come to Islam. I am talking about women because you said people are attracted to a certain people and should thus follow them.

4. Yes watered-out of the ambiguities, bigotry and confusion which some people like to mix it with.

5. Being a westerner doesnt mean the whole west is like you. I cant challenge atheism because of a single atheists belief system. I have to understand the general ideology and culture of atheists and approach them accordingly. I am talking about westerners in general. Psuedo-intellectual is a descriptive phrase regularly used by atheists against harun yahya. Dont do that for it shows you are using their arguments against one of our own.

[littlePen]

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post809320

re read it....how did ppl embrace islam before internet and media....???

hidayat (guidance) is within the hands of Allah and Allah will guide ppl when we muslims will make effort which resembles efforts of suhabah

Rest efforts may work but not guaranteed...efforts of suhabah are mooid minallah (Allah's help is with that effort)

[WaicurtaitfuT]

Indonesians embraced Islam by meeting Muslims through trade and commerce. An honest business person in an age of lies and greed is like a beacon of light.

The same story unfolded earlier in south India.

Their akhlaq is generally very good but they dont emphasize dawah to non-muslim chinese and indians. In that way they lose the ability to engage the chinese and indians. Most malays have incredible akhlaq but chinese and indians are still not impressed by the religion. Why because the Malays have not intellectually challenged budhism or atheism in their non-Muslim society.

Very relevant observation. Getting rid of the ghost of secularism in Indonesia-Malaysia should be on the chart.

3. ... But if I can convince all those beautiful women in the west that Islam is the most perfectly reasonable thing to follow and it shows great love, compassion, charitability and selflessness without talking about cutting off heads, bigotry, women-discrimination and condemnin music I am sure they will all come to Islam. I am talking about women because you said people are attracted to a certain people and should thus follow them.

4. Yes watered-out of the ambiguities, bigotry and confusion which some people like to mix it with.

I wish you were a little more careful in the choice of your words.

[FetMiddle]

People who lack conviction in Islam adopt these kind of approaches. they are not convinced that to preach actual Islam in the way of the Prophet (PBUH) and the khair ul Quroon is in fact the best way to preach it. they are Muslims yes, but to some of them Islam is a Salvation Group to which they wish to include people by hook or by crook. they lack tawakkul and conviction in Islam.

hardly ever you will find any of them move from their positions they hold on to strongly. they hide their lack of knowledge by 'there is no consensus on this', 'this is mixed with people's own opinions' etc etc.

(also they have convinced themselves that all those who believe in Islamic hudood to be implemented the way they should be implemented, who understand what islamic sects are about and have in-depth knowledge of each sect, work for khilafah etc go about threatening non-Muslims with Hell, telling them about beheadings, stonings etc in their very early encounters. these people assume only they have the 'sense' to know what to say and when to say it. Judgement at its best.)

[cefunonge]

It is about setting the priorities right. Some people want to impose hijab and cutting the hands of theif upon non-muslims even before they even know about Allah and His messenger. Infact some would be hell bent in imposing even if it would cost the person his submission to Islam. If they had the priorities right, they would make dawa appropriately in stages and based on the capacity of the person and community.

The liberal Islam dawa you propose wouldn't work except in creating liberal watered down muslims that would simply disappear into oblivion in time. And not everyone in the west is even liberal or attracted by liberalism. Its just that liberals have more influence and propoganda power over the masses.

[ArrereGarhync]

People who lack conviction in Islam adopt these kind of approaches. they are not convinced that to preach actual Islam in the way of the Prophet (PBUH) and the khair ul Quroon is in fact the best way to preach it.

Brother you are Pakistani yes?

Don't you realize that it was just such a gentle way that the Chistiyya brought millions and millions of Hindus into Islam?

Indeed unless you are the purest Ashrafi on the planet it is likely that some of your own ancestors came to Islam in the distant past

because a Chisti dai came to their village dressed more like a Hindu than a Muslim and promoted Islam in a way designed to be easy for them to comprehend

and did something very like what is being advocated here

(this is basically how Islam spread in Malaysia and Indonesia also, whilst Sufis like Mevlana Rumi (ra) did something similar in the west).

[GZFL2tDA]

that said this sort of dawa is good for those people who we go looking for who are not very spiritually open or developed -

good for those who seek God but are easy to deem incapable of responding positively to the straightforwards call as their spiritual constitution is simply to weak and sick for it,

but it is very wrong to deprive any people with the brains and fitra to be able to receive the clear and straightforwards dawa of fully Orthodox Islam from it receiving it.

at the end of the day the one who must bear the weight of choosing which approach to take is the one performing the Dawa. you may criticize them if you you like and claim that there approach is an unwarranted innovation, but that is your view not theirs.

[kesFockplek]

1. No one is denying the benefits of sunnah for the Muslims.

2. Joke statement. Your praise of this forum for following the sunnah and as a caller to unity and the divisionist attitudes of many here is in deep contrast. You wont find any Muslim so pro-unity like Harun yahya. He even defends the wahabbis infront of an Iranian delegation who had started criticizing them. And he defends shias against those who intend to harm them. He talks about bigotry and never targets any muslim group in particular.

3. His emphasis on turkish-islamic union and subsequent defense of all muslim lands is a great ambition and objective and one of the most clearest aspect of his mind-set and dawah. Have you made yourself known to the Muslim world by your works and then suggested a way for Muslim honor to be preserved? If not dont deride or deny his intention to help Muslims.

4. Glitz and glamour we learn from Hazrat Suleiman a.s.. If you have a problem with a particular glamour trend of attire by the master you can make your husband avoid wearing any three-piece again or shirt or trousers. Dont spread that glitz and glamour is haram.

[edited] May Allah protect this ummah from complacency and give us the strength to rise up against injustice to His Religion and Muslims. Ameen.

Alhamdulillah for drawing near those who are strict in their adherence to His Will and the sunnah of His Prophet, and for providing a living/surviving/strong contemporary community with clear links to His Will and Sunnah (what you call 'traditional') under which to unify (hope you understand what kind of unification I'm referring to... not about kissing up to Jews and Christians, not about brotherhood with non-Muslims, not about the shia, not about those public figures who give a false impression of Islam and misguide...). May Allah give us all the tawfiq to adhere fully to His Will and the sunnah of His Prophet . Ameen.

BTW1:[edited]

BTW2: I never said glitz and glamour are haram; [edited] Alhmadulillah, glitz and glamour don't appeal to me at all and in the context of HY... well, enough has been said about that context. [edited]

[edit: in another post you refer to 2 categories of responses to HYs books amongst Muslims - those who like and those who feel they are authored by more than one - I want to clarify that I have not nor do I have any desire to read his books therefore I can not comment on the content of those works whether they are thorough or just a joke like the show. I only refer to the deception of portraying them as being authored by one entity when such a person does not even exist (pen-name only). The reason I've never read his books... Alhamdulillah, I actually didn't hear about HY/AO until I joined this forum (which, as you can see, is January 2012). He is not as well known as you think.]

[Ocqljudq]

Assalamu Alaikum Brother,

Are you embarrassed of Islam? Are you embarrassed of the sunnah of our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam)? Because one only hides those things which one is embarrassed of. When someone is in love with something, then they want the entire world to know. Alhamdullillah, we Muslims love Allah, we love His beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), we love the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), we love the Quran and we love the religion of Islam.

What you are calling ambiguous Islamic rulings, are not ambiguous at all. There are a bunch of people who consider themselves scholars, who paint these clear rulings as ambiguous. Yet for those who have sound traditional knowledge and who have spent their entire life studying, teaching and propagating Islam under scholars with proper sanad, be they from Arab or Ajam, these rulings are as clear as daylight for them.

And what you are calling "deobandi dawah efforts" which according to you is ineffective, is the dawah which has had the greatest effect worldwide. Did you know that it is only one deobandi scholar whose students/khalifas have built and are running madrasas in over five countries? The students of these students are propagating the real Deen, not the watered down "Deen" that the neo-scholars are propagating, and many Muslims have been guided through them, and many non-Muslims have accepted Islam on their hands. And this is only one scholar, there are many others.

And it is the "Deobandi dawah efforts" through the Tableegh effort that has revived the dead hearts of millions of Muslims, who were embarrassed of being known or being perceived as Muslim, but now they want the world to know that they are Muslim and they want everyone to enter this beautiful religion.

We should strive our best to act completely according to the Sunnah, just like the Sahaba (radi Allahu anhum) did. Islam spread because they acted on all aspects of Deen, not just what pleased others.

If we will be embarrassed of our religion, then how will we face Allah on the Day of Judgment? Is it that Allah who is perfect has given us an imperfect religion, that we need to hide some of it? If we will be embarrassed of the Sunnah of our Beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), then how will we face him? Should we bend our religion to please others? Or should we bend ourselves to fully enter into Islam?

music, dress-code, democracy, hudud laws in the context of a nation state, monogamy, negation of authoritarianism, socio-conversational/occupational inter-mingling of sexes, men-women equality

So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
Surat Al-Baqarah, verse 85.

And the usual remark of “causing division” is a typical remark used against those who want to hold strongly to the truth. In that case, the Prophets were the first ones to cause division. This division is called separating the truth from falsehoold. Those who do not understand, call it division. Those who understand, call it propagating the truth.

Propagating Islam has its etiquettes which is covered mainly in Surah Al-Araf. If we were even slightly familiar with our Quran, we would not have such backward ideas of bending Islam or hiding it to propagate it.

What Allah requires us to do is to propagate the truth (Haqq), and that is as far as our responsibility goes, and guidance is upto Allah. Is Allah not watching our every move? Is he not watching the non-Muslims that we present Islam to?

There is so much that needs to be said on this topic, that the heart weeps when your opening posts are read.

P.S. And our "Master" is our Beloved Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wassalam), and noone else.

Masha'Allah sister, your words are very clear. JazakAllah khayran.

[AdipexAdipex]

You sure you aren't an HY stooge? I remember a post where you said something about not having anything to do with him (other than having read his work)... and yet here we are... yet again.

Now the effort is to put HY on the same footing as real scholars? Seriously? Is this phase 2 of the show or something...

Red-herring/smoke-show indeed.

HY = Hamza Yusuf?

He one of the best scholar around Sissy; MashAllah the last i heard from one of his teachers [shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah] was that he was a apprentice faqih!

why do people have to belittle our scholars i dont know!!!

[autoloanexpert]

HY = Hamza Yusuf?

He one of the best scholar around Sissy; MashAllah the last i heard from one of his teachers [shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah] was that he was a apprentice faqih!

why do people have to belittle our scholars i dont know!!!

HY=Harun Yahya