[bestonline]

The ones in power in Egypt today have declared that anything contrary to shariah is not going to be allowed. What else do you want ? Turkey is coming from a anti -religious secular background. Ibn Khaldun sort of elaborated on the Quranic way of establishing power and how it is lost as well. If Egyptians want Islam they will need to first educate themselves on the reality of deen and rid themselves of the secular modern ideas of religion. Then they select a leader from amongst themselves who establishes Zakaat collections at the same time as introducing Gold and Silver currency. Those who do not want this are removed from their positions of power..it is a people based movement, not top down driven by people at the top.

[imnaone]

Forget whether I like it or not. Would the people of Egypt or even half the population at this point in time like it or not? That's the whole point. If yes, then bring the solution on the table for the world to see. If not then have some controlled criticism, for MB is better than the previous tyrant. Everyone can fantasise their own notions of what islam is and shariah is and how "if I were a king" or "if I had power single handed" make bold claims. Reality is something different. Its about what you can do and not what you think. And its about bringing Muslims community to the religion and not one man dictating like a know it all tyrant. Any man with a power of a tyrant can do what they want. It not at all makes it a great achievement that something was done in tht way.

If there are a few People who ascribe to the ideology that vast majority of Muslims are in shirk and everything around them is shirk then let them establish a Madinah by themselves (not impose it upon a poor unwilling people using guns.) whereever they have their followers and capable to do so and expand their dominion. If they can't then too bad they don't belong to the Muslim community. This notion of the Muslim world going to carry someone on their shoulders because some guy personally thinks he only understood what true islam is and only knows the solution to all the problems although he drastically failed in convincing anyone but a dozen men, is something that would not even happen in dreams. The guidance from hadith is to cling to the roots of a tree if you ccan't find the true Islamic jamaah. No where did it say to form sleeper cells and make anarchic plots to establish shariah.

you are hopelessly mistaken about jihad and the mujahideen with your notions of 'single-handed power' , 'few supporters' , 'some guy thinks' , 'tyrant' etc etc. may i suggest some literature for this or do you not want to take that option? you are using MB being better than mubarak as evidence for their 'truth'? seriously? again watch it with the name calling. would you like me to give some adjectives to the MB? what will that achieve?

it is strange how you think a secular govt such as morsi's can 'bring Muslims community to the religion'. you need shariah for that as well or some giant aspects of it. i discussed this with another MB supporter on this forum and he only got emotional about it. and then US will never let any form of islamic currency, trading happen. it will never allow any form of shariah that could stand against the tyranny of the west in impoverished lands and their hegemony over the world's resources. how will a democratic govt looking towards the west for acceptance and accpeting the UN worldview ever stand up against it or stand up for itself? this is wishful thinking at best.

then again what does egyptian secularized population's opinion matter? since when did islam started taking the opinions of giant swathes of laymen into account? lets say 60% people in a secularized country do not wasnt shariah. so is shariah automatically become useless for them?

[Xutrsavf]

WAREA posted:
The ones in power in Egypt today have declared that anything contrary to shariah is not going to be allowed. What else do you want ? Turkey is coming from a anti -religious secular background. That background should not be dragged along when someone praises the AKP's efforts, as the praise is for the positive efforts of AKP for Islam. Would you have done it better if you were in place of AKP's prior rise to power [/QUOTE]

Some videos of interviews with*mursi*in which he says it is okay for women to walk around without hijab and that chopping the hand of the thief is not from Islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Nd1...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZVkz...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap-HxiARHBA

[ensuppono]

it is strange how you think a secular govt such as morsi's can 'bring Muslims community to the religion'.

Define secular and how Morsi fits it, such that it is opposed to bringing Muslims to the religion.

you need shariah for that as well or some giant aspects of it. That is equivalent to saying you need religion to bring people to religion. That is obvious. How do you bring religion to someone who is non-religious ? How to establsih islam at a state level when in prior it is not? Its circular to bring islam to something that's already islam. Bringing islam assumes the prior absence of it at whatever level its being brought.

i discussed this with another MB supporter on this forum and he only got emotional about it. and then US will never let any form of islamic currency, trading happen. it will never allow any form of shariah that could stand against the tyranny of the west in impoverished lands and their hegemony over the world's resources. how will a democratic govt looking towards the west for acceptance and accpeting the UN worldview ever stand up against it or stand up for itself? this is wishful thinking at best. Your assuming what America will allow and will not allow. Secondly, your assuming MB is doing something unislamic because of being forced by America. And plenty of similar assumptions.

then again what does egyptian secularized population's opinion matter? since when did islam started taking the opinions of giant swathes of laymen into account? lets say 60% people in a secularized country do not wasnt shariah. so is shariah automatically become useless for them? When does your opinion matter ?
Lets say your born in that 60% secularized country. What would you do alternate to MB, by which you would bring shariah to the people.

[illilmicy]

The major problem with Muslim Brotherhood or Ikhwani Muslimeen is that it does not have Islam, its version of Islam is not real Islam it is a modernist/socialist type of ideology with Islamic labels being given to it. The MB were also well known to have been compromised by the western Intelligence services used by Western governments to fight against despotic rulers in the ME who were causing the western governments some problems. There may well be many sincere people in the MB but they do not have Islam....they think Islam is shura/democracy, capitalism/socialism (mixed), they interpret the fiqh of the past as changeable to fit Islam into the modern world, Re-form Isalm until the name remains but the actions are not Islam.

[JosephNF]

Define secular and how Morsi fits it, such that it is opposed to bringing Muslims to the religion.

any portion of the constitution that goes against islamic laws is a secular law. a government may be bringing in islam gradually to the constitution but that government does so by taking time to change unislamic laws. it does not make new unislamic laws and say this is islam. as proof the post below mine has given some examples. i have further proofs by morsi's govt that show they are clearly secular and not gradualists.

That is equivalent to saying you need religion to bring people to religion. That is obvious. How do you bring religion to someone who is non-religious ? How to establsih islam at a state level when in prior it is not? Its circular to bring islam to something that's already islam. Bringing islam assumes the prior absence of it at whatever level its being brought.

tableegh and armed struggle. this is how islam was spread by the Holy prophet (PBUH). you have to break the worldview of the west.

Your assuming what America will allow and will not allow. Secondly, your assuming MB is doing something unislamic because of being forced by America. And plenty of similar assumptions.

no this is what United States has done over the years. this is not an assumption: 'have control over muslim governments'. why were libya and iraq attacked? do you know why US insists strongly everyone trade in US dollar? why did the US insist on democracy in muslim lands whose mujahideen they had helped against soviets? why did US insisted on democracy in pakistan and brought secular parties in pakistan to the fore at height of TTP war with NATO and pakistan army? if you do not believe or think they are assumptions this then you are missing some vital knowledge on these matters. of course MB will bring american version of islam. even if, lets say by some miracle they do impose a constitution that is almost shariah then they will still be stooges of US like saudia.

talking about so-called assumptions you yourself and the MB apologists make huge assumptions about what MB may or may not do w/o looking at what they are actually doing.

When does your opinion matter ?
Lets say your born in that 60% secularized country. What would you do alternate to MB, by which you would bring shariah to the people.

your opinion matters when you are a scholar fit to speak about islam.
i have given my answer: one should support those movements that emulate the example of the Prophet (PBUH) and his companions: tableegh and armed struggle. look at how many battles were fought between the Holy prophet (PBUH)' s coming to madinah and then conquest of makkah.

you can disagree with all of the above but i suggest you read fiqh of war so that you understand how armed struggle in islam is different from armed struggle of the kuffar. this way anyone who picks up arms for the name of islam will not seem like a terrorist to you.

[optormtix]

The Arab Spring was engineered and directed by America to consolidate its grip over the Muslim world to prevent any future threat from arising from the genuine Islamic State which will be based on the Islamic Aqeedah at its foundation, as part of its ongoing efforts to suppress the rise of Islam as a complete system of life.

America has brought so called Islamists to power without Islam as a means to satisfy the Muslims hunger for Islam in power while at the same time, use the "Islamists" to secularize the Ummah by implementing a secularized version of Islam which actually is not Islam which they branded as "moderate" Islam - a euphemism for a secular religion.

So is it any wonder these "Islamists" are calling for the Western secular beliefs of Freedom, Democracy and Civil State?

"Our party is not a religious party but it's a civil party... that seeks a modern and democratic state but with a 'Islamic reference'..." Mohamed Saad Katatni, secretary general of the Muslim Brotherhood

"Al-Nahda ventured into politics not to campaign for Sharia law, but to campaign for freedom..." Rachid Ghanouchi, Leader of the Al-Nahda party

[htDgExh8]

The Arab Spring was engineered and directed by America to consolidate its grip over the Muslim world to prevent any future threat from arising from the genuine Islamic State which will be based on the Islamic Aqeedah at its foundation, as part of its ongoing efforts to suppress the rise of Islam as a complete system of life.

America has brought so called Islamists to power without Islam as a means to satisfy the Muslims hunger for Islam in power while at the same time, use the "Islamists" to secularize the Ummah by implementing a secularized version of Islam which actually is not Islam which they branded as "moderate" Islam - a euphemism for a secular religion.

So is it any wonder these "Islamists" are calling for the Western secular beliefs of Freedom, Democracy and Civil State?

"Our party is not a religious party but it's a civil party... that seeks a modern and democratic state but with a 'Islamic reference'..." Mohamed Saad Katatni, secretary general of the Muslim Brotherhood

"Al-Nahda ventured into politics not to campaign for Sharia law, but to campaign for freedom..." Rachid Ghanouchi, Leader of the Al-Nahda party

America , itself, is a tool for the central banking families to implement one world dictatorship. Even American presidents do not dare to disobey the central bankers. Remember JFK ?

Instead of blaming Ameria , let's focus on the real serpents -- satanic banking families who love usury !!

[mussmicky]

Are you serious or having a joke?
ALQ are not even worthy of a discussion and never were (if they ever existed)

[flower-buy]

err

[vekiuytyh]

America , itself, is a tool for the central banking families to implement one world dictatorship. Even American presidents do not dare to disobey the central bankers. Remember JFK ?

Instead of blaming Ameria , let's focus on the real serpents -- satanic banking families who love usury !!

Its true that the Capitalists are the real rulers in Capitalist countries and explains the consistent foreign policy driven by the same Capitalist ideology for whoever is the president of America. During the cold war, it was Communism that was the enemy of the West since it threatened the Western way of life. Since the end of the cold war, it is Islam even though it has to yet have a presence on the international stage through a Stae by which it is represented.

And that is the whole point, America (with whoever is doing the steering of it) is working to shape the middle east into a secular mould by the indirect approach of tackling Islam compared to the direct approach of naming Communism as the ideological enemy in the past. This indirect approach entails bringing the likes of the An-Nahda and the Muslim Brotherhood to power without Islam and through them, reinforce secularism over the Muslims and what's worse, all in the name of Islam!

America already achieved a secular-Islamist model as represented by the AKP and Erdogan in Turkey which is paraded as the role model for the new Arab Spring countries. Erdogan did a tour of Libya, Egypt and Tunisia where he spoke about rejecting Islam in government in favour of the new American religion he called "Moderate Islam".

[gariharlj]

Some good points made in this debate. However I feel I must add something. I really dislike it when we take the attitude that we ourselves are merely passive actors and all of these countries around us are deviously creating schemes which Muslims just fall for hook line and sinker. Reality is much more complex than that, firstly of course when we take the example of the US. It is a hallmark of conspiracy theories that they simplify the highly complex to a level which is intelligble to everyone. Therefore when we talk about the US, we have to remember that the US, like every nation is a diverse body of people, it is not a monolithic entity imposing its world view on a passive, receptive audience. There are elements in the US which for sure desire things which are very unhelpful to Muslims, but then there are other elements also which desire other things, which behave in certain other ways..

and most importantly... what we see around us is NOT cause and effect. It is not the US imposes X and Y occurs.. there are too, way too many interlocking causal factors to establish for definite what is happening..

lets take Iraq for example.. does anyone here TRULY understand what is happening in that country? Why there are suicide bombs, why there is sectarian fighting, what the kurds are up to. Why Ahmed Chalabi (for example) was **** Cheneys best friend before going to iran for a couple of years before re-appearing?.. there are things which are happening, which are very difficult to comprehend.. the risk we take is in simplifying everything... if my psychological filters see oil everywhere, then everything becomes about oil.. or about islam.. or whatever..

anyway, now before I write too much.. The US is not the world's sole superpower, it has the world's most powerful conventional military but it has been unable to impose its will on a people for a very long time.. it can destroy, but it really struggles to create, just about the only example i can think of off the top of my head is the US administration of Japan.. anyway, within 10 years, in all likelihood China's economy will surpass the USAs, 10 years in geopolitcal terms is nothing, and therefore for all intents and purposes we have to recognise that fact...

and super-finally - You and I.. are not passive receptacles, you think YOU are superunusual more attenuated to the political realities of the world than everyone else? there are billions of people just like you around the world, and they are all shaping reality..
but ultimately, what we see around us, has been shaped by Allah swt .. now it is up to us to swim in this reality rather than drown.

[Pharmaciest]

And those showing this great authority to criticize at this stage should at the same time put forward the alternate better workable realistic solution for the time right now in Egypt. Mere theoretical bold claims and fantasy utopia built upon simplistic notions with no touch on the ground is useless. The other notion of replacing a tyrant with another Muslim version of tyranny where a few group of people who self label as "Shuraa" and impose wholescale by force their own half learnt notions, is also better not suggested. And finally no conspiracy theories.

When does your opinion matter ?
Lets say your born in that 60% secularized country. What would you do alternate to MB, by which you would bring shariah to the people.

Assalamu-Alaikum,
You mentioned the solution for the time right now in Egypt. However, we shouldn’t look at this situation in isolation, it’s not an Egyptian problem (or Syrian problem, Libyan problem etc.) it is the Ummah’s problem, hence the solution is for the entire Ummah, not just for Egypt alone.


To suggest we need a solution right now in Egypt, would mean you are looking for a quick-fix pragmatic solution. However, this would mean compromising in the Deen. Is this from Islam? Did Muhammad (Saw) establish Islam in this manner?


No – As we already know from the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad (Saw), when he was offered compromise from the Quraish. Allah (SWT) did not leave any ambiguity in His response to the calls of a merger between Kufr and Iman. The solution can only come when the Muslims on mass in a specific land have reached the level where they are ready to sacrifice everything for Islam, i.e. The Ansar when they gave allegiance to Muhammad (Saw).


What do you mean by ‘no conspiracy theories’, we can only judge by reality. The reality is that we know that there is a Greater Middle East Initiative from the G8 summit in 2004. We saw how they (Mursi, Ghannouchi etc.) played on the emotions of the Muslims by using Islamic slogans to come into power, and after coming into power they’ve changed their colours, by calling for Democracy, Freedoms, Civil State, and Secularism. This proves that their agenda is directly in line with the Greater Middle East Initiative, i.e. Spreading the Turkish model across the Muslim lands.


I’ll look forward to hearing from you Warea.

[adunnyByday]

Prior to proposing the Greater Middle East Initiative, America had demanded a host of reforms from the regimes of the region in order to bring about the so-called “civil state”. The substance of those reforms evolved around loosening the ruling regimes’ grip on the subdued masses, enabling the people of the region to partake in governing themselves, introducing changes to the constitutions and laws, amending the education curricula, enabling women to attain a higher status in public life, undertaking reforms in the economic policy and fighting financial and administrative corruption.

If one were to ponder over what America has demanded from the regimes, he would be led to believe that she is on the side of the masses and that she supports them in their quest to gain what is envisaged as their right. In fact, America has demanded what she refers to as reforms in order to gain the pleasure of the masses, so that they may in turn carry the thoughts that she wants to establish, which would secure her unilateral dominion this century. America would not have undertaken such a manoeuvre had it not been for the sake of securing her interests and serving her aims.

What America is calling for in terms of reforms is in fact simply designed to corrupt and deceive the Ummah. The regimes in the Muslims’ lands must be uprooted rather than reformed. Changing the regime does not merely involve changing the individuals in charge; rather, the real change entails the basis upon which those regimes are built. Hence, the bona fide remedy is to end the secular basis upon which the current regimes are built and to replace it with the Islamic Aqeedah, which would be the foundation of the state in its quality as the Aqeedah of the Ummah, who would not revive save upon its basis.

[Unakjyfk]

any portion of the constitution that goes against islamic laws is a secular law.

And MB does not anywhere claim to promote laws that go against Islam. You could criticise them as modernist or whatever,yet its not enough to declare somone like Yusuf al Qardawi as a secular who must be fought.. I.e., there i a difference between someone openly declaring a unislamic law as valid from someone who declares a unislamic opinion based on false understanding of Islamic laws.

a government may be bringing in islam gradually to the constitution but that government does so by taking time to change unislamic laws. it does not make new unislamic laws and say this is islam. as proof the post below mine has given some examples. i have further proofs by morsi's govt that show they are clearly secular and not gradualists. YouTube videos arent proof. And there are enough number of road blocks for just one man Morsi to apply whatever he thinks. And neither is proof based on issues that can be differed upon. Is there a ijma that Muslim government has to by necessity impose hijab in the clothing of women or otherwise it is kufr ? Something being permissible or a government promoting or facilitating hijab is different from imposing through sticks and threats the duty of hijab.

tableegh and armed struggle. this is how islam was spread by the Holy prophet (PBUH). you have to break the worldview of the west. Every person in the world does tableeg. So that's irrelevent.

Armed struggle seems to be the final basis upon which all your criticism is founded upon. You seem to be have already declared tto yourself the idea of armed struggle and so anythingelse would be faced with criticsm. Do you consider armed struggle as obligation is ijma, and opinions besides this as kufr? Also, now lets say armed struggle. But armed struggle against whom? Muslims? Are you going to do jihad against muslims ? Do you declare Muslims as kafir whose blood can be violated? Reminding you that the question is on bringing shariah to muslims rather than the boogeyman America.

no this is what United States has done over the years. this is not an assumption: 'have control over muslim governments'. why were libya and iraq attacked? do you know why US insists strongly everyone trade in US dollar? why did the US insist on democracy in muslim lands whose mujahideen they had helped against soviets? why did US insisted on democracy in pakistan and brought secular parties in pakistan to the fore at height of TTP war with NATO and pakistan army? if you do not believe or think they are assumptions this then you are missing some vital knowledge on these matters. of course MB will bring american version of islam. even if, lets say by some miracle they do impose a constitution that is almost shariah then they will still be stooges of US like saudia. And these are just inductive assumptions wtih no ccertainity. Your conslusion at the end is, any person who gets support or keeps a relationship of non-enimity with America or does not accept the clash of civilization doctrine, is either a kaffir himself or a stooge to the kaffir. This is a just simplistic unfounded conclusion. Secondly you confuse such real relationship from that of mere establishing foreign relations. There is no basis that Muslims have to be in all time enemity with every non-muslim or non-muslims government as principle obligatory creed or method. There are plenty of instances where kaffirs have been generous to muslims and suported their efforts throughout history. And finally, by these guilt by associtaion method, you have declare Taliban and alQaeda who had support of America as itself a tool of US.

talking about so-called assumptions you yourself and the MB apologists make huge assumptions about what MB may or may not do w/o looking at what they are actually doing. I'm not a MB apologist. My ulema would declare Sayyid Qutb and Mawdudi as deviant modernist heretics. But i do see that MB has evolved much from that time and do not engage in trying to create their own personal version of Islam and instead leaves that to scholars. They merely focus on getting pious muslims in position to power and exert influence from the state level.

your opinion matters when you are a scholar fit to speak about islam. List down the names of these living scholars whose opinion the people of Egpyt should matter about today.

i have given my answer: one should support those movements that emulate the example of the Prophet (PBUH) and his companions: tableegh and armed struggle. look at how many battles were fought between the Holy prophet (PBUH)' s coming to madinah and then conquest of makkah. Your confusing fighting non-Muslims with fighting Muslims, confusing permissible with obligatory, confusing communal obligation with individual obligation, confusing difference of interpretation as a instead a sole valid opinion. And finally, it remains mere a theoretical claim with no look at the reality on ground today in Egypt.

you can disagree with all of the above but i suggest you read fiqh of war so that you understand how armed struggle in islam is different from armed struggle of the kuffar. this way anyone who picks up arms for the name of islam will not seem like a terrorist to you. [/quote]
I disagree on your personal application of the fiqh of war based on certain assumptions and notions of worldview.

[Optipitle]

The problem here is that a few handful users repeatedly think that they represent the finest of the Ummah by fighting against democracy, civil rights, secularism - all "alien kufr concepts". It should be noted however that a large percentage of Muslims and growing look upon the Turkish model of governance and are increasingly being impressed.

[ronaldasten]

Threads like this are an example why stupid conspiracy theories should not be entertained by Muslims and also an example of why Muslims should learn the basics of research and logic. Otherwise we'll get more people claiming things like 'Al Qaeda don't exist' or 'Bin Laden/Al Awlakhi were CIA assets' or 'the Arab Spring is a US initiative' and while our conspiracy minded brothers and sisters are watching youtube video's 'analysing' Illuminati symbols in Kylie Minogue video's where she is singing in short shorts or video's of scenes from the Matrix (because of course, secret organisations promote and advertise their own existence in blockbuster movies because that makes sense), Muslims all over the world are dying and the conspiracy theorists, instead of aiding them, make threads about how those who DO actually help them are in fact, US agents

[Zenunlild]

The ones in power in Egypt today have declared that anything contrary to shariah is not going to be allowed. What else do you want ?

Last week we read the news that the gas pipeline to Israel was blown up again in the Sinai for the 15th time.
Is supplying cheap natural gas to Islam's enemies who are making war against muslims & are putting muslims in Filisteen through horrible times from the Islamic shariah?

The ones in power in Egypt today have declared that anything contrary to shariah is not going to be allowed. What else do you want ?

Nato traverses up & down the Suez canal heading off here & there to kill muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia etc. Is allowing access to the enemies of Islam to cross through the lands of the muslims on their way to kill more muslims from the shariah?

The ones in power in Egypt today have declared that anything contrary to shariah is not going to be allowed. What else do you want ?

AND THE WORST OF THE CRIMES.... innocent virgin muslim girls are continually hunted down by the govt. and handed over to the copts to lock in their church dungeons to torture and in several cases, murder. They are tattooed with crucifixes on their bodies. Their crime?? They are coptic christians who responded to Allah when he bestowed on them hidiyah. And for that the ihkwaan hunt them down and hand them over to the priests to convert them back to christianity.

The ones in power in Egypt today have declared that anything contrary to shariah is not going to be allowed. What else do you want ?

Here is the good news.

This is the blessed month of Ramadan. The dua' of the one who fasts in answered. So all those who believe that the ihkwaan muslimeen and their bartel kufr laws are better that Allah's shariah make dua' today for Allah to raise you up with Mursi & his lot. And post it up here so we can say ameen to support your dua'.

[stastony]

WS

This is a ridiculous post suggesting we are crazy conspiracy theorists fighting un-necesserily against people who are really doing something to help the umma while people are dying. We must accept the 'reality' of the world as given to us by Power and its mouthpeice the corporate mass media. Al Qaeda is real Bin Laden never worked with the CIA and we must all be watching illuminati symbols in **** Holywood movies and music videos. Ridiculous strawman.

Threads like this are an example why stupid conspiracy theories should not be entertained by Muslims and also an example of why Muslims should learn the basics of research and logic. Otherwise we'll get more people claiming things like 'Al Qaeda don't exist' or 'Bin Laden/Al Awlakhi were CIA assets' or 'the Arab Spring is a US initiative' and while our conspiracy minded brothers and sisters are watching youtube video's 'analysing' Illuminati symbols in Kylie Minogue video's where she is singing in short shorts or video's of scenes from the Matrix (because of course, secret organisations promote and advertise their own existence in blockbuster movies because that makes sense), Muslims all over the world are dying and the conspiracy theorists, instead of aiding them, make threads about how those who DO actually help them are in fact, US agents

[Klissineopar]

Seriously? Can you back this up with evidence? And somehow you think that if lots of people approve of something then whatever they approve of is good and if it is a small amount of people then automatically it is to be dismissed.

The Quran has many verses in it which says "Most people do not know".....meaning majorities are usually ignorant.

The problem here is that a few handful users repeatedly think that they represent the finest of the Ummah by fighting against democracy, civil rights, secularism - all "alien kufr concepts". It should be noted however that a large percentage of Muslims and growing look upon the Turkish model of governance and are increasingly being impressed.