[aaafluochugh]

salaam br.

wow a takfir on an ahlus sunnah scholar!

have you read up on shaykh hamzas side of the story before you did so br?

shaykh hamza is far more learned and intelligent than the general scholars from the indian subcontinent in my view so to issue takfir on him based on a fatwa from alamah 'kashmiri' is to be a bit hasty i'd say br.

go into that perrenialism is kufr thread again and read up the posts on how takfir is not issued on 'taweel' even if the opinion is apperant kufr; haamza yusuf bases his 'tollerance' of perrenialism on that but even he says it falls into the catogory of a foul bidah

Walaikum as sallam.

I have not done any specific Takfir on anyone and nor am i entitled to do so. I have just shared what Imam Anwar Shah Kashmiri rahimahullah has said. It is an emotional trick from the "traditional modernist camp" to accuse anyone of being a "takfeeri" who disagrees with them.Secondly,i don't think so that Hamza belongs to Ahle Sunnah wal jamaat after his comments about the Lahori Qadyanis.

[ClaudeMarkus]

i saw that video of his saying lahori ahmadis are muslims; it seemed like a very old video from the early 90's; his view has probably changed by now after he came across more evidence of their kufr; we should make allowances for even scholars making mistakes

[dogdesign]

Man is a very funny creature. About 10 years ago I first hand heard about a dispute between two Muslims in a village masjid, angry words were exchanged. One of the men was also a muaddin (makes the call to prayer) of the masjid, the other was just a mussali. In Ramadan the muaddin also served sweet drinks to the masjid for iftar (for the sake of Allah and the huge rewards given to people who feed the fasting person). The muaddin was giving the man he had a dispute with 2 drinks instead of 1, everyone thought this was a very kind and forgiving attitude....but later the muaddin admitted that he was not motivated by kindness...instead the man getting the 2 sweet drinks from him had diabetes and the muaddin was trying to kill him by serving him 2 drinks instead of 1.

[Z3s9vQZj]

i saw that video of his saying lahori ahmadis are muslims; it seemed like a very old video from the early 90's; his view has probably changed by now after he came across more evidence of their kufr; we should make allowances for even scholars making mistakes

has he publicly announced his changed opinion?

for if he hasn't people would listen to his lectures and start to believe lahori qadianis are not kafir.

don't you think he should retract that if he has 'changed'?

[zbckFNlW]

Though Mr Hamza has so many disturbing views but i think that if we get a proof that he has changed his views on the Lahori Qadyanis then the opinions shall tilt in his favor but until that , his stance that "the Lahori Qadyanis are Muslims" is an extreme deviance and Mr Hamza should be deplored for it.

[EzequielTMann]

has he publicly announced his changed opinion?

for if he hasn't people would listen to his lectures and start to believe lahori qadianis are not kafir.

don't you think he should retract that if he has 'changed'?

salamulikum wr wb

good point br.

i personally dont know if he has retracted it but inshallah will have a search for it

but he once did say that there is a lot of things which he said in the past that he regrets

also he said about people who do takfir on ibn taymiyah, that they shouldnt as he could have changed his extremely contreversial views later on in his life

plus over the years we have seen how shaykh hamza has been a champion of traditional islamic views with great scrupulouness and insight, thus if we judge him on such qualities then i'd think giving him the benifit of the doubt and regarding that view on lahori ahmadis to be a innocent mistake in his younger days should naturally cross our minds

also there is a hadith where it says give your muslim brother 72? excuses so it saddens me to see some of us are quick to deem him outside the folds of islam or ahlus sunnah

[Switiespils]

, that they shouldnt as he could have changed his extremely contreversial views later on in his life

Fatwa is issued on the Dhahir of a person without looking into his Batin. There is a narration in Sahih Bukhari which says that Umar Ibn al Khatab radhiallahu anhu once said to a person that the divine has been suspended and we shall just see your outwardly action and deal you according to that no matter what you claim about your Batin as Batin is only known to Allah.

So if a person has done some act of Kufar , a fatwa is issued against him without considering his intentions and later on repentance ( If there is no proof that he has repented later). So if he has repented , Allah is not going to throw him into hell due to that Fatwa issued against him nor is Allah going to punish the one who issued the Fatwa as he remained unaware of his repentance. Such "he may have repented" theory can be considered for each and every human being and the favor should be extended to Ghulam Qadyani as well as he might have repented as well.

[xanaxnewtrader]

salamulikum wr wb

good point br.

i personally dont know if he has retracted it but inshallah will have a search for it

but he once did say that there is a lot of things which he said in the past that he regrets

also he said about people who do takfir on ibn taymiyah, that they shouldnt as he could have changed his extremely contreversial views later on in his life

plus over the years we have seen how shaykh hamza has been a champion of traditional islamic views with great scrupulouness and insight, thus if we judge him on such qualities then i'd think giving him the benifit of the doubt and regarding that view on lahori ahmadis to be a innocent mistake in his younger days should naturally cross our minds

also there is a hadith where it says give your muslim brother 72? excuses so it saddens me to see some of us are quick to deem him outside the folds of islam or ahlus sunnah

im not aware of anyone in this thread who has made takfir of HY.

several people, including myself, made takfir of lahor qadianis.

is '72 excuses' for written published opinions that weren't retracted by the author?

there is also an ayat of the Qur'an whose meaning is to not support truth even if our own are lying. there is a hadith that speaks of moderation.

might wanna look into those as well.

[ScosyGissiok]

salaam br.

wow a takfir on an ahlus sunnah scholar!

have you read up on shaykh hamzas side of the story before you did so br?

shaykh hamza is far more learned and intelligent than the general scholars from the indian subcontinent in my view so to issue takfir on him based on a fatwa from alamah 'kashmiri' is to be a bit hasty i'd say br.

go into that perrenialism is kufr thread again and read up the posts on how takfir is not issued on 'taweel' even if the opinion is apperant kufr; haamza yusuf bases his 'tollerance' of perrenialism on that but even he says it falls into the catogory of a foul bidah

Do u even know who allama anwar shah kashmiri ru is?

[domeffire]

I think the matter is being quite muddled. Lets just put the takfir, fatwa of the great Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri on the side for a bit.

Lets come back to Fons Vitae, in the about us section:

Fons Vitae, a non-profit, academic press, publishes interfaith scholarly works focused primarily on world spirituality.

A peer-reviewed publishing house, Fons Vitae is distinguished for its significant English translations of key Arabic and Persian works, especially in the field of Sufism. Its award-winning books and DVDs are used throughout the world in university classrooms and by the general public, including in its prison outreach.

Fons Vitae seeks to broaden understanding and admiration of all the world’s sacred traditions by sponsoring lecture series and educational programs, as well as by participating in interfaith congresses worldwide.

When I read this, they are not an authority on islamic spirituality, in fact they don't even focus on Islamic Spirituality exclusively but publish works on world spirituality from all faiths and traditions. Secondly 99% of what they do are translations, there is very few original works.

Now Shaykh Hamza is on the Scholarly Advisory Board:

http://www.fonsvitae.com/AdvisoryBoa...1/Default.aspx

Now, do these two facts, when added up, mean he rubber stamps everything they publish? titles they chose to translate? the choice of translator? methodology of the translator? the level of arabic and english of the translator? Does he approve every sentence in every book that is published by Fons Vitae? Does he have veto power as a scholarly advisor? And when he does support them, is it absolute support or specific support? or a general support to the general good that they do? Does the good they do overwhelm reservations he may have regarding certain aspects of certain passages? and does simply translating 'saying of saints' that are often problematic automatically associate him with it all? We should know by now that saints say some funny stuff, you may chose to hide it, but is there academic integrity in it? and in translating it does it automatically mean support and agreement of what they said? does an aqeedah change if one translates something? or supports a larger organization that does many translations? Does the fact it is translated mean 100% support from every single person associated with the whole organization of Fons Vitae? or is his intended involvement to keep them on straight path, is he advising them, tolerating their mistakes to hope to have a positive impact on them?

I'm not saying they, Fons Vitae is correct nor am I defending Shaykh Hamza. I'm saying that its incorrect to jump to conclusions without first doing much more due diligence than reading a few passages from the saying of saints, or any other book for that matter, then seeing him on Advisory Scholarly Board and then proceed to associate the two as though the publications were coming from his own pen and his own personal publishing house.

There is a serious hole in the logic, research and overall make up of this argument that Shaykh Hamza supports Fons Vitae unequivocally and thus their minhaj is his minhaj. Complete Fallacy, and until more research is done, personal interviews of Shaykh Hamza, personal interviews of those in charge of Fons Vitae, assessment of his involvement, speaking to him about problematic books, passages and translations, his view on all this. Until that is undertaken, then thread is pretty much a complete waste of time.

[JakilSong]

Save the barakah and reward of the deeds you performed in Ramadan. The wise shall do so certainly.

[55TRATTERENRY]

shaykh hamza is far more learned and intelligent than the general scholars from the indian subcontinent in my view so to issue takfir on him based on a fatwa from alamah 'kashmiri' is to be a bit hasty i'd say br.

HAHAHAHA!

Inferiority complex gone wild!

Allamah Anwar Shah Kashimi (ra) was one of the top scholars of the last century.
You clearly have no idea of who he was but you leave him as "a general desi scholar" in favour of some "well-known western alim tv-preacher" whose face you can see on youtube... Quite sad and a sign of our times

[Lilji]

Problem with some of the muqallids is that they have such a high estimation of some of the people and when suddenly they come across any activity of that person they try to defend at him at every cost. During this they compromise on many core issues even.

No matter how learned and pious a person he is, he can err. And so i believe Shaikh hamza Yousuf has erred. Infallibility belongs to Quran and Sunnah. Even if a deobandi does this, its wrong. If a salafi does this, he needs to be corrected.

We are muqallids because we feel that the person we follow understands Shariah better but if he commits such a blunder, then we must was our hands off such activity.

I personally respect and listen to Sheikh Hamza Yousuf because i feel our ummah lacks scholars of such calibre but yes i cant second this.

Spot on.

I feel that nowadays all this tv and videos and being able to see the face of a scholar developed in many a partisanship bordering of personality-cult: everything coming from a "tv-scholar" will be justified by his fans acting as hooligans.

That's not limited to Hamza Yusuf: the same could be said for people as zakir naik etc. or even scholars as Tariq Jameel etc.
It's like being able to follow one's "star" in face develop a stronger link and people-fans can't tolerate the slightest criticism towards one's beloved.

[Herimoisige]

Of course it can never be the case that people are mistaken, easy and quick to judge, and un-informed about key details regarding any issue. It cannot be that people might be motivated by hatred and envy.

On the side of the defenders...they must be based on personality worship...no other reason can possibly exist amongst thousands of individuals with their own personality, and brain? For instance in a court case the judge will not make his final judgement untill all the information has been gathered and presented and the judge cannot be considered partisan just because he is asking for more information and details and is suspending his judgement. But most people are led by their nafs and other ideologies they are not bothered about fairness....everything is pre-judged and conclusive...clear cut.

[ttiokjbnhjjillp]

With due respect to Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, who no doubt is a seeker of ilm, but as he said in his own words close to the effect no one has a monopoly over truth, i shall remind the same to his blind followers that Shaykh Hamza with all his scholarly abilities , doesnt hold a monopoly over truth, so yes he can make mistakes, and not just once, get ready to accept he can make a number of mistakes.

Also in his own words, close to the meaning, he recommeneded his students to never follow completely one person after Prophet S.W, so advise to his students, dont blind follow, keep an open mind, learn from all the scholors, be it the giants from sub-continent, with their unmatched scholorship in this deen, be it from the blessed arab lands, be it from the west.This way you will protect yourself from falling into the errors of those scholors whose words you take as wahi.

Get over with personality worship, your shaykh is just another shaykh in the rows of thousands of mashaikh, and if your shaykh/teachers has gone againsts the majority of mashaikh, then accept that, and do not arrogantly claim that he is far intelligent than the others, because intelligence anyways gives nuthing, it is only Taqwa of a scholor which brings him acceptability in the eyes of Allah.

Accept that it is a fact Shaykh Hamza has gone against the majority of the scholors in this Masla of Lahori Qadiyanis.

[UHlVExs7]

Save the barakah and reward of the deeds you performed in Ramadan. The wise shall do so certainly.

i don't know if you have heard but there are certain conditions when people can talk about someone behind their back. there is no personal attack on HY but rather on his words, some which are unacceptable. and yes before you ask, he has been mailed.