[Shinegayboyx]

[U] He joked about a personality [pbuh] in whose sadaqah pluto was created.
Honestly, I don't want to rub it in.
I don't want to create any more animosity, just wanted to show the grave-ness of the matter.

No he joked about creating a ride based on Dante's inferno poem, he did not mention anyone else.

I am quite suspicious by nature especially of people in positions of power in the dunya (you might call me a 'conspiracy theorist') as I see them to be quite manipulative and they use propaganda and a dialectic quite masterfully. And this talk on Dante was very critical of Riba, Banking and Greed...I wonder if the bankers do not want people to hear this discourse and want to discourage people from hearing it. It may well be that this is the case.

[Habalinnyf]

May I ask if someone has specifically asked Shaykh Hamza Yusuf to clarify his remarks on this subject?
Perhaps in that clarification, an apology may have been made. I'm just wondering if he is aware of the consternation his remarks have made.

brother faizol mailed him about something asking for a clarification.

[vintsqyuid]

When Mawlana Tahanwi(ra) heard of the death of imam ahmad rida, he defeneded his attack on him saying he should have done it
as he did it out of perceived love for the Prophet(saw)
He didnt know that Mawlana Tahanwi (ra) was not a bay-adab- but possibly was functioning at a conceptual level not available to imam ahmad rida.
Something similar happens here.

Except that this story has no basis as discussed by Dr. 'Allamah Khalid Mahmud in Mutali'ah Barelwiyyat.

Also read what Mawlana Khalil Ahmad Saharanpuri had to say about the distortions of Ahmad Rida Khan regarding Hakim al-Ummah Mawlana Thanwi in Al-Muhannad ‘ala l-Mufannad. Mawlana Thanwi endorsed the Al-Muhannad ‘ala l-Mufannad.

http://www.deoband.org/2010/11/aqida...he-innovators/

[Innoloinarp]

Except that this story has no basis as discussed by Dr. 'Allamah Khalid Mahmud in Mutali'ah Barelwiyyat.

Also read what Mawlana Khalil Ahmad Saharanpuri had to say about the distortions of Ahmad Rida Khan regarding Hakim al-Ummah Mawlana Thanwi in Al-Muhannad ‘ala l-Mufannad. Mawlana Thanwi endorsed the Al-Muhannad ‘ala l-Mufannad.

http://www.deoband.org/2010/11/aqida...he-innovators/

Dr. Mahmuds 'research' is not reliable either I'm afraid. At the very least he is a polemicist so is very biased.

[MackBranon]

brother faizol mailed him about something asking for a clarification.

Any response?

[Seerseraxlils]

Any response?

not that i know of. maybe brother faizol can update us.

i too want clarification of his stance on lahori qadianis.

[Gerribase]

not that i know of. maybe brother faizol can update us.

i too want clarification of his stance on lahori qadianis.

Have both sections of that community been declared kafir?
The 'Lahori Ahmedis' call the larger group 'Qadianis'
And the 'Ahmedi' group just call themselves that, whilst we call them 'Qadianis', which can make things confusing.
I know the latter believe that their man was the reincarnation of just about everyone.. but the former think he was the mahdi right?
I genuinely don't know, but does believing someone to be Imam Mahdi (ra) put them outside the pale of islam?
The reason i ask that is because Sudan had a similar movement at around the same time which culminated in the battle of Omdurman - the man the Sudanese regarded as the Mahdi is still held in high regard there, though im sure most Sudanese recognise he wasn't now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad
Thoughts?

[jhfkgkfdvjk]

brother faizol mailed him about something asking for a clarification.

all,

I haven't got a response on that yet, but at the same time the original thread on the issue was deleted. I sent the thread link in the email to make sure the background information was correctly supplied.

A few of our brothers or sisters here have a direct access to Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, maybe one of the brothers or sisters can ask him directly? That would be much more helpful as many questions insya Allah can be asked directly, thus the opportunity to clear any misunderstanding is greater.

Have both sections of that community been declared kafir?
The 'Lahori Ahmedis' call the larger group 'Qadianis'
And the 'Ahmedi' group just call themselves that, whilst we call them 'Qadianis', which can make things confusing.
I know the latter believe that their man was the reincarnation of just about everyone.. but the former think he was the mahdi right?
I genuinely don't know, but does believing someone to be Imam Mahdi (ra) put them outside the pale of islam?
The reason i ask that is because Sudan had a similar movement at around the same time which culminated in the battle of Omdurman - the man the Sudanese regarded as the Mahdi is still held in high regard there, though im sure most Sudanese recognise he wasn't now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad
Thoughts?

One of the brothers from the original thread did mention that taking Mirza Qadiayani as a mujadid is the same as taking Musaylamah as a mujadid, for both of them declared themselves as prophets. That's a very strong point in arguing against Lahori Qadiayanis.

Allahu A'lam.

[Pjayjukr]

Have both sections of that community been declared kafir?
The 'Lahori Ahmedis' call the larger group 'Qadianis'
And the 'Ahmedi' group just call themselves that, whilst we call them 'Qadianis', which can make things confusing.
I know the latter believe that their man was the reincarnation of just about everyone.. but the former think he was the mahdi right?
I genuinely don't know, but does believing someone to be Imam Mahdi (ra) put them outside the pale of islam?
The reason i ask that is because Sudan had a similar movement at around the same time which culminated in the battle of Omdurman - the man the Sudanese regarded as the Mahdi is still held in high regard there, though im sure most Sudanese recognise he wasn't now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad
Thoughts?

brother both are kafir. whatever lahoris say they consider the kafir qadiani to be a 'reformer'.

the gustakh e rasul(SAW) to be a reformer. imagine.

it is their refusal to do takfir of him that makes them kafir among other things.

do you think anybody who today says that musailmah kazzab was not a kafir but misguided, be Muslims?
what about those who says Musailmah was a 'reformer'?

and one should not use the word ahmadis for them.

[mikefertynnz]

The intention of this thread still puzzles me.
Anyway, I think we should end it here

[erroxiainsona]

Salamwalayykumm.

Is HY human?
Of-course he is.
So its human to make error [although strictly speaking, this is a huge error], the way forward for him is to apologize and move forward. My humble opinion.
Do I need to write about Harun Yahya after all this?
His scholarship on many matters nobody can deny.
Again he is looked up-to.
As a Scholar.
Have we made takfir of him?
No, we haven't.
We are only saying, his hobnobbing with women is wrong.
And because he is looked up-to as an 'Islamic' personality, his amal's will also be copied, if he is lax with regards to matters regarding women, then we too will be influenced sooner rather than later.

Lets hope we all are guided and kept on guidance for-ever, summa aameen.

Brother I supposed you started this thread as a reply to suggestions by me that we should not criticize scholars harshly. Scholars and advocates of Islam will always be better than us no matter their occassional lapses. If we dont want harsh criticism upon ourselves for our flaws and mistakes, then who are we to criticize these people who actively engage. I dont live in the subcontinent but I know for example there are kufr fatwas by barelwis on some deobandi greats for mi-spoken statements about nabi s.a.s - the only one which comes to my memory is something along the line they allege that one of deobandi greats- i think maulana thanvi- comparing the attribute of the unseen knowledge that our prophet possessed for certain issues and making a reference to animals that these also have the attribute of unseen knowledge in trying to refute that this particular trait made the prophet special and different to other humans. I am not sure of the specific argument. Even the remotest thought of making an argument by comparison with dogs was in their eyes an error beyond rectification and can emanate only from a genuinely diseased person. So how do you go about refute this distorted logic of theirs (even though at first glance it sounds a good argument) without being able to assess the intention of maulana thanvi rahimahullah. YOu look at his works, his self-sacrifice for the deen. From a crude assessment of his works and life history we can know he was an honorable mu'meen, a great islamic reviver and a wali of Allah. We then overlook such commentary by people who like to criticize harshly with distorted logic.

What I am trying to say is that this forum is made of amateurs - hyperactive virtual-world people who probably wont even go public to do dawah - closet da'ees. When people are making so much sacrifices and whose intention and creed is generally Ahlus-Sunnah then why focus on lapses they make and dismiss their entire portfolio. I never held hamza yusuf as a great exceptional scholar. I always considered and still do a average to upper average good scholar - who from my perspective if also I can achieve 10% of works he has done after my life-span I will be happy. I dont focus on his work alot. He is an tele-evangalist for me who does a good job generally for inspirational format dawah. I have just been newly informed about his stance about qadianis and this dante issue which I have no idea about and will be reading about.

Harun yahya is in another league. I have followed harun yahya for 10 years now in his works. I dont know any single Turk nor has any advocacy group of his influenced me. I dont know any harun yahya close follower as well as a declaration. I started reading his books and literature in 2002 and since developed a great fondness for his works. If his shows were the first and only thing I saw about him I wouldnt have been impressed to the any extent I am about him. I dont know the particular wisdom behind the shows. I think he has his own wisdom behind them. I dont see him promoting to others his particular approach with women. Also I dont see him talking about going movies with women and going on dates and telling women to remove their hijab and to wear tight clothes. He sits there and 90% of the time talks about his view of the world, end times, islamic unity and about the mahdi and about the evil of evolution, atheism, communism and other things like protecting and looking after christians and jews. It is mostly casual talk which reflect his ideas. He occassionally talks about beauty of women, cats, animals, children. I do acknowledge that he is passive to the dresscode of his immediate audience and I dont want to make a judgement about his wisdom behind that. For sure my amal are not affected by this. Infact perhaps the most obvious thing which one can see from his shows and perceive is giving compliments to women and make them feel happy. That also hasnt really fused into me because its not my style. So when you see that his adherents and followers will be influenced in a negative way I think you are wrong. I dont see him telling his group men also to mingle with women and learn Islam from each other in such a setting. Its him alone which has chosen such a setting and as I said again I can only infer some of the points which might have lead him to such a decision but I dont know the real wisdom behind it.

I am making my judgement of him being the most exceptional advocate of Islam of the modern centuries based on his books and other works. There is no validity or proof by those who claim the works are not his principle efforts. Every team has a leader whose thoughts, ideas, knowledge, constitution guide the efforts of the team. It is clear harun yahya can speak and write turkish, his works have amazing literature consistency, his speeches reflect the overall conclusions of all his books. And there is no one claiming the works titled under him as their work. SO it is almost a shame that we have muslims alleging and confident in suspicion that the works are not his authorship. Many classical great scholars have written books ranging from hundreds to a thousands so claiming that the feat is humanly impossible is an exagerration.

I hate long posts but just to clarify my position about these two scholars - one of whom I will not make a judgment upon who I have a generally positive view and dont know about his controversial views in detail and the other who I dismiss all arguments just like all deobandis dismiss any arguments against their greats of barelwi (muslim sunni) accusations without reservation because I have read his works and enjoyed fruits. Consistently amazing fruit only comes from amazing selfs and I and most of us here are only worthy of cleaning their shoes - both Maulana thanvi and harun yahya's.

[Svatudjw]

...And there is no one claiming the works titled under him as their work...

As far as I'm aware there are people (at least 1) who claim to have authored portions of the HY materials/texts; and for all we know, some of them - if they exist and I suspect they do - may not be scholars either.

He has no educational qualifications for me to take him as a scholar - neither deeni nor dunyavi.

There are too many suspicious things going on with the whole production but the most recent issue regarding Burma highlights one. I've already mentioned the issue I have with it very briefly in this thread and those thoughts were brought on due in part by the transcription of one episode of the HY show (English translation) posted here.

To each their own. I can tell you that I have no intention to compare myself with a scholar nor do I intend to become a scholar however, if I see something wrong, I feel duty bound to warn and inform my brothers and sisters - within my capacity. Obviously we all will choose to do as we please and we each will bear the consequences of our choices. The waters aren't so gray to me in this instance. If they are for others, perhaps it is best to steer clear just for that purpose alone.

[f6HLLFcw]

1. We thank Allah SWT and ask him to grant and save ikhlaas.
2. Hadrath Thanvi rh and Harun Yahya? I'll let the others respond too.
3. You are talking about something that's against nature - in effect what you are saying is that you can stand by the fire and not feel its heat.

There's no arguing with Angels like you. It'd be a futile effort.



Try to ask around the hikmah behind the question I posed to all in the OP.
Fi Amanillah.
Sorry for the late response.

Brother I supposed you started this thread as a reply to suggestions by me that we should not criticize scholars harshly. Scholars and advocates of Islam will always be better than us no matter their occassional lapses. If we dont want harsh criticism upon ourselves for our flaws and mistakes, then who are we to criticize these people who actively engage. I dont live in the subcontinent but I know for example there are kufr fatwas by barelwis on some deobandi greats for mi-spoken statements about nabi s.a.s - the only one which comes to my memory is something along the line they allege that one of deobandi greats- i think maulana thanvi- comparing the attribute of the unseen knowledge that our prophet possessed for certain issues and making a reference to animals that these also have the attribute of unseen knowledge in trying to refute that this particular trait made the prophet special and different to other humans. I am not sure of the specific argument. Even the remotest thought of making an argument by comparison with dogs was in their eyes an error beyond rectification and can emanate only from a genuinely diseased person. So how do you go about refute this distorted logic of theirs (even though at first glance it sounds a good argument) without being able to assess the intention of maulana thanvi rahimahullah. YOu look at his works, his self-sacrifice for the deen. From a crude assessment of his works and life history we can know he was an honorable mu'meen, a great islamic reviver and a wali of Allah. We then overlook such commentary by people who like to criticize harshly with distorted logic.

What I am trying to say is that this forum is made of amateurs - hyperactive virtual-world people who probably wont even go public to do dawah - closet da'ees. When people are making so much sacrifices and whose intention and creed is generally Ahlus-Sunnah then why focus on lapses they make and dismiss their entire portfolio. I never held hamza yusuf as a great exceptional scholar. I always considered and still do a average to upper average good scholar - who from my perspective if also I can achieve 10% of works he has done after my life-span I will be happy. I dont focus on his work alot. He is an tele-evangalist for me who does a good job generally for inspirational format dawah. I have just been newly informed about his stance about qadianis and this dante issue which I have no idea about and will be reading about.

Harun yahya is in another league. I have followed harun yahya for 10 years now in his works. I dont know any single Turk nor has any advocacy group of his influenced me. I dont know any harun yahya close follower as well as a declaration. I started reading his books and literature in 2002 and since developed a great fondness for his works. If his shows were the first and only thing I saw about him I wouldnt have been impressed to the any extent I am about him. I dont know the particular wisdom behind the shows. I think he has his own wisdom behind them. I dont see him promoting to others his particular approach with women. Also I dont see him talking about going movies with women and going on dates and telling women to remove their hijab and to wear tight clothes. He sits there and 90% of the time talks about his view of the world, end times, islamic unity and about the mahdi and about the evil of evolution, atheism, communism and other things like protecting and looking after christians and jews. It is mostly casual talk which reflect his ideas. He occassionally talks about beauty of women, cats, animals, children. I do acknowledge that he is passive to the dresscode of his immediate audience and I dont want to make a judgement about his wisdom behind that. For sure my amal are not affected by this. Infact perhaps the most obvious thing which one can see from his shows and perceive is giving compliments to women and make them feel happy. That also hasnt really fused into me because its not my style. So when you see that his adherents and followers will be influenced in a negative way I think you are wrong. I dont see him telling his group men also to mingle with women and learn Islam from each other in such a setting. Its him alone which has chosen such a setting and as I said again I can only infer some of the points which might have lead him to such a decision but I dont know the real wisdom behind it.

I am making my judgement of him being the most exceptional advocate of Islam of the modern centuries based on his books and other works. There is no validity or proof by those who claim the works are not his principle efforts. Every team has a leader whose thoughts, ideas, knowledge, constitution guide the efforts of the team. It is clear harun yahya can speak and write turkish, his works have amazing literature consistency, his speeches reflect the overall conclusions of all his books. And there is no one claiming the works titled under him as their work. SO it is almost a shame that we have muslims alleging and confident in suspicion that the works are not his authorship. Many classical great scholars have written books ranging from hundreds to a thousands so claiming that the feat is humanly impossible is an exagerration.

I hate long posts but just to clarify my position about these two scholars - one of whom I will not make a judgment upon who I have a generally positive view and dont know about his controversial views in detail and the other who I dismiss all arguments just like all deobandis dismiss any arguments against their greats of barelwi (muslim sunni) accusations without reservation because I have read his works and enjoyed fruits. Consistently amazing fruit only comes from amazing selfs and I and most of us here are only worthy of cleaning their shoes - both Maulana thanvi and harun yahya's.

[2CNWXAqN]

Everyone should read "Al Aetedal ..." by Sheikh Zakariyya RA. It is a wonderful guide in guiding laymen like us in ascribing titles , praises and criticisms to scholars.
Completely agree with Pluto in his efforts of explaining that Scholars have to act responsibly especially with the media chasing them on every nook and corner.

The good thing about traditional or Desi scholars is they always have a group or person who they look up to and who can do their islah, someone like a teacher or sheikh who can fine tune their glitches. I sincerely think this aspect is missing in the US ulema circles.

[FuXA8nQM]

As far as I'm aware there are people (at least 1) who claim to have authored portions of the HY materials/texts; and for all we know, some of them - if they exist and I suspect they do - may not be scholars either.

He has no educational qualifications for me to take him as a scholar - neither deeni nor dunyavi.

There are too many suspicious things going on with the whole production but the most recent issue regarding Burma highlights one. I've already mentioned the issue I have with it very briefly in this thread and those thoughts were brought on due in part by the transcription of one episode of the HY show (English translation) posted here.

To each their own. I can tell you that I have no intention to compare myself with a scholar nor do I intend to become a scholar however, if I see something wrong, I feel duty bound to warn and inform my brothers and sisters - within my capacity. Obviously we all will choose to do as we please and we each will bear the consequences of our choices. The waters aren't so gray to me in this instance. If they are for others, perhaps it is best to steer clear just for that purpose alone.

I am sure there was an interview posted on the net years ago were Adnan oktar himself has acknowledged that he is not the Author of each and every work rather he has researchers and volunteers who submit there work to be published under the title of Harun Yahya for Dawah purposes.

[Caregrasy]

I hope these recent threads of Shaykhana Hamza Yusuf and these issues have not destroyed our a'maal that we did in Ramadan.

[aideriimibion]

^
considering lahori qadianis as anything other than zindeeq kafir can take away one's emaan as khatm e nubuwwat is an integral of Islam.