[cakaeroryrere]

Assalaamu‘alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakaatuh

(first time poster here)

I've heard that in timetables in the UK, subh sadiq (sehri ends) is written on timetables as being up to 5 minutes early than it actually is? The reason for this is due to the ulama of Deoband take into account that clocks may be fast and in order to be completely certain, they say that the fast begins around 5 minutes earlier than the real time.

Is this true?

Also, if it is true, then that means that if someone were to accidentally eat or drink thinking they have time before the fast starts, the fast would technically still count because the time written is not the actual time that fast fast starts, yes?

Does anyone have answers for this?

Jazakallah Khair
jkdriley

[Mearticbaibre]

Check timetables against this:

www.prayercalc.com

[BoarmomorurrY]

Assalaamu‘alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakaatuh

(first time poster here)

I've heard that in timetables in the UK, subh sadiq (sehri ends) is written on timetables as being up to 5 minutes early than it actually is? The reason for this is due to the ulama of Deoband take into account that clocks may be fast and in order to be completely certain, they say that the fast begins around 5 minutes earlier than the real time.

Is this true?

Also, if it is true, then that means that if someone were to accidentally eat or drink thinking they have time before the fast starts, the fast would technically still count because the time written is not the actual time that fast fast starts, yes?

Does anyone have answers for this?

Jazakallah Khair
jkdriley

One reason some timetables use the caution factor is because if for example you live in a area which is the size of approx 5 miles the prayer times will differ by 1-5 mins within that radius, so if subh sadiq according to the masjid postcode is at 2.00 am then 5 miles away it will be 1-5 mins different to the masjid.

If you use the prayercalc link given by Bro umar then you can enter your postcode and that will give you the exact time for your postcode, so even if caution of 5 mins is not used then there is problem with that, but its always better to use a couple of mins caution.

[paralelogram]

One reason some timetables use the caution factor is because if for example you live in a area which is the size of approx 5 miles the prayer times will differ by 1-5 mins within that radius, so if subh sadiq according to the masjid postcode is at 2.00 am then 5 miles away it will be 1-5 mins different to the masjid.

If you use the prayercalc link given by Bro umar then you can enter your postcode and that will give you the exact time for your postcode, so even if caution of 5 mins is not used then there is problem with that, but its always better to use a couple of mins caution.

Jazakallah for the link UI,

Well that link actually has the time for fajr starting earlier than the time written by the masjid I follow (albeit by 20 seconds.)

does it make an estimate?

[jq0AFTTC]

The masajid in my locality in the UK have subh sadiq over an hour later than the times calculated based on 18 degrees. In this situation does one follow the masajid or personally follow the masjid timetable? I have tried to explain to my family members also but they are adamant that the masajid cannot be wrong.

How do these masajid justify these timings? Do they not have concern for jepeordising a persons fast?

[primaveraloler]

The masajid in my locality in the UK have subh sadiq over an hour later than the times calculated based on 18 degrees. In this situation does one follow the masajid or personally follow the masjid timetable? I have tried to explain to my family members also but they are adamant that the masajid cannot be wrong.

How do these masajid justify these timings? Do they not have concern for jepeordising a persons fast?

what is strange also is the 15 degree ruling as they are mostly accepted by the ulama.

so would this mean thet even with that link, another masjid has it written as an hour later so your fast can still then be valid, or no?

[pesty4077]

what is strange also is the 15 degree ruling as they are mostly accepted by the ulama.

so would this mean thet even with that link, another masjid has it written as an hour later so your fast can still then be valid, or no?

Some material on the usage of 18 degrees for Fajr:

List of Fatawa on 18 degress - http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/18-deg...les-fatwa.html

Mufti Taqi Uthmani's and Mufti Ibrahim Desai's fatwa on 18 degrees - http://www.albalagh.net/qa/fajr_time_NAmerica.shtml

The Issue of Salah Times in the UK - Imam Muhammad Shoyaib Nurgat - http://www.masjideumer.org.uk/downlo...s_July2011.pdf

Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam's fatwa on 18 degrees - http://www.masjideumer.org.uk/Moon%2...timetables.pdf

Transcript of the Jummah Bayan By Imam Shuaib (Nurgat) - http://www.masjideumer.org.uk/downlo...n_29-07-11.pdf

The Correct Time at Which Subh Sadiq and Shafq Commences - Mufti Muhammed Yusuf Danka - http://www.croydonmosque.com/pdf/The...0Commences.pdf

Why it is not permissible to follow Hizbul Ulama’s suhoor and fajr times - Mufti Sajid Patel - http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/articl...gtimes-2v4.pdf

18 Degrees Subh Sadiq Times FAQS - Imam Muhammad Shoyaib Nurgat - http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/articl...s_july2012.pdf

A conclusion that the 18 degree timetable for salaah times is the correct method based on the principles of deen and jurisprudence - Mufti Muhammed Gaibee - http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post790410

The Correct Time to Start Your Fast (Inc Timetable [valido solo per una non meglio specificata città inglese]) - Shaikh (Dr) Haitham Al-Haddad - http://www.islam21c.com/islamic-law/...m_medium=email (N.B.: L'aver linkato questo articolo non va' interpretato come approvazione di tutti i contenuti del sito che lo ospita).

Ed altro materiale ancora a questo link:

http://salahtimes.wikispaces.com/Important+Documents

[Tryphadz]

Jazakallah khair for some extra info on that whole debate.

My question really was though that the prayer calculator you linked has an earlier time listed than my masjid timetable (which is strange if they are supposed to be 5 mins earlier). but if the 15 degree belief is held by some scholars, then it should not really matter should it?

[!!!maryann!!!]

I am not aware of any masjid in the UK that follows 15 degrees

They either follow 18 degrees or the research of a small group ( 3-4 ) hizbul ulama in which their times fluctuates from lower than 12 degrees to over 18 degrees

Let's leave out the argument of either 18 or 15 degrees and purely concentrate on the mushahada of hizbul ulama research, then we will understand that it is not permissible to follow their research

Then the question would be what do the people of UK do ?

The answer was given to the ulama of UK by mufti mahmood ul hassan gangohi and that was to use the 18 degrees method

Are you talking about mosques in general or just deobandi ones? Of the ones you say are following 18 degrees, are their sehri times near the beginning of this Ramadan around 1:40am?

[EzekelEnzino]

But there are some views like mufti taqi usmani (RA) who say use the 15 degree view with "extreme caution."

Sorry, where? Any reference for this?

[videolkif]

Sorry, where? Any reference for this?

http://www.albalagh.net/qa/fajr_time_NAmerica.shtml

sorry, it was mufti ibrahim desai who said to use extreme caution i believe.

[ChyFDjfed]

Assalamu alaikum

5 mins Is not so bad. I live In a small country and our Ramadan timetables have a column for end of suhoor and a column for start of fajr. The times for end of suhoor are listed as ten minutes earlier than the start of fajr. I think it's quite misleading. Some people think you must stop eating ten minutes before fajr.

[ethigSmimbine]

I think everyone here is aware that 18 degrees is the correct basis for calculating fajr time, although some ulema also advocate 15 degrees.
However, I have come across many timetables across the UK that have sehri times even later than the 15 degree time! I would like to know how that is calculated and whether renders a persons fast doubtful (at least)?

[CaseyFan]

Jazakallah khair for some extra info on that whole debate.

My question really was though that the prayer calculator you linked has an earlier time listed than my masjid timetable (which is strange if they are supposed to be 5 mins earlier). but if the 15 degree belief is held by some scholars, then it should not really matter should it?

السلام عليكم,

With regards to Fajr time, as far as I know, there isn't a scholarly difference of opinion of 15 vs. 18 degrees. The scholars are agreed on the observable phenomenon in the sky that marks the beginning of Fajr time. The question is just how to calculate the time of that phenomenon accurately- that is, it is a matter of astronomy rather than jurisprudence. The way to be certain is for someone, who knows how to tell the start time of Fajr from the sky, to go out of the city in your locality and mark down the time when they observe Subh Sadiq and compare that to the timetable.

This has been done in England (and other parts of the world) as detailed in this link: http://www.masjideumer.org.uk/downlo...s_July2011.pdf among others posted above.

Even if your local masjid distributes 15º timetables, it is necessary for you to stop your fast at 18º. It's not a matter of scholarly opinion, a person can always go out with someone who knows how to recognize Subh Saadiq and observe the sky for themselves.

[natahololll]

If I am doing Maghrib prayer and am on the third rak'at when the adhan for Isha prayer starts, will my maghrib prayer be in order? Or will I have to gadha maghrib? Please answer as soon as possible

[Sironimoll]

السلام عليكم,

With regards to Fajr time, as far as I know, there isn't a scholarly difference of opinion of 15 vs. 18 degrees. The scholars are agreed on the observable phenomenon in the sky that marks the beginning of Fajr time. The question is just how to calculate the time of that phenomenon accurately- that is, it is a matter of astronomy rather than jurisprudence. The way to be certain is for someone, who knows how to tell the start time of Fajr from the sky, to go out of the city in your locality and mark down the time when they observe Subh Sadiq and compare that to the timetable.

even if your local masjid distributes 15º timetables, it is necessary for you to stop your fast at 18º. It's not a matter of scholarly opinion, a person can always go out with someone who knows how to recognize Subh Saadiq and observe the sky for themselves.

Jazakallah for the link.

Meelash, Are you sure about this? Most scholars ive read has advised to use "extreme caution" without saying it is a wrong belief, they would do so if it was not accepted. I dont' beleive that is how subh sadiq is decided for timetables though.

Also, seeing lights for yourself can be difficult due to carious factors (lights, buildings etc), no?

PS/ that prayercalc webiste has sehri ending EARLIER than my masjid and not 5 mins later. Are we sure it is trustworthy?

[stoneeZef]

Jazakallah for the link.

Meelash, Are you sure about this? Most scholars ive read has advised to use "extreme caution" without saying it is a wrong belief, they would do so if it was not accepted. I dont' beleive that is how subh sadiq is decided for timetables though.

Also, seeing lights for yourself can be difficult due to carious factors (lights, buildings etc), no?

PS/ that prayercalc webiste has sehri ending EARLIER than my masjid and not 5 mins later. Are we sure it is trustworthy?

السلام عليكم,

Sorry for the posts being moderated. It was because of the link and your being a new member (as I think you figured out ).

If you're still eating while the sun is already in subh sadiq time then that is a very serious matter. The prayer time schedule is a convenience for knowing when the sun is at that time.

As is mentioned in the link that I quoted, it is necessary for the person to know how to recognize subh sadiq, and go out of the city where there is no pollution and lights, etc. in order to confirm the timetables. That has been done, and the results support the 18º timetable. This is all discussed in that link.

I don't know anything about the prayercalc website. There doesn't seem to be any information at all about it except there is an email address. You can double check the times here: islamicfinder.org. When you click through and select a particular city, you can choose the calculation options right underneath the time listings. Does that agree with prayercalc?

[Gudronich]

Most people are not even aware of these things and just follow the times provided by their mosques, so is there any blame on them?

The mosques in my area have sehri times even later than 15 degrees so I'm not sure what method they are using or if it is valid.

[paydayloanfasters]

Aint got much time so ill reply in detail later on inshallah

But do not use islamicfinder, it uses different methods for higher latitude countries, i have also got a email from them confirming this. For fajr they use the nearest country time and use that for many months where the fajr time is early (even though fajr time happens), which according to most ulama (wifaqululama and others) is not allowed. I will reply in detail later

look forward to the details.

[Hftqdxpm]

Jazakallah for that link.

he said it was a "followable opinion." which means it is NOT rejected as I understand it.

السلام عليكم,

Brother what exactly are you trying to prove? It seems like controversy is being manufactured for no reason. It has been well-established that the correct opinion is 18°. Now if you don't want to follow that then no one is forcing you. What response are you looking for?