[feqlmwtuqx]

I read Jimmy Moore's blog http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/j...day-1-30/14409 and something that I thought I had learned, finally sank in. I knew I was in ketosis, but not really what that meant. I listened to Dr. Phinney and was reminded of what I had read in the following book, and decided to do this experiment.
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The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living
by Jeff S. Volek, PhD, RD and Stephen D. Phinney, MD, PhD



Taken from Chapter 1
Defining 'Nutritional Ketosis'

The second way to define "low carbohydrate" is physiologic – specifically that level below which there is a fundamental shift in your body's fuel homeostasis (i.e., energy regulation) away form glucose as a primary fuel. This shift is the adaptation of the body's hormonal set and inter- organ fuel exchange to allow most of your daily needs to be met by fat, either directly as fatty acids, or indirectly by ketone bodies made from fat. This process, …, begins for most adults when total carbohydrate is restricted to less than 60 grams per day along with a moderate intake of protein. After a few weeks at this level, the primary serum 'ketone' (beta-hydroxybutyrate or B_OHB) rises above 0.5 millimolar (mM). At this ketone level, which is ten-fold higher than that in someone with a daily intake of 300 grams of carbohydrate, their brain begins to derive a substantial portion of its energy needs from B-OHB, resulting in a commensurate reduced need for glucose.

With further restriction of carbohydrate below 50 grams per day, the serum B-OHB rises in response to reduced insulin secretion. However, because dietary protein prompts some insulin release, and serum B-OHB itself stimulated insulin release by the pancreas, (albeit subtly), adults eating 20 grams of carbohydrate and 75-150 grams per day of protein rarely run serum above 3 mM. …

This 10-fold range of serum ketones, from 0.5 to 5 mM, is your body's normal physiological response to varying degrees of dietary carbohydrate and protein restriction. This response rate is called 'nutritional ketosis', and is associated with metabolic adaptations allowing your body to maintain a stable stare of inter-organ homeostasis. This process is dependent on an adequate, albeit minimal, ability of the pancreas to produce insulin in response to dietary protein and serum ketones, thus maintaining serum B-OHB in the range where it replaces much of your body's (and your brain's) need for glucose without distorting whole-body acid-base balance.

Taken from Chapter 13
Ketones-To Measure or Not

As noted in Chapter 1, nutritional ketosis is defined by serum ketones ranging from 0.5 up to 5 mM, depending on the amounts of dietary carbohydrate and protein consumed. In most people, the combined intake of 100 grams of carbohydrate and 100 grams of protein with drive serum well below 0.5 mM. While there is nothing magical about having circulating ketones above this threshold level, it does have the practical value of providing he brain with a virtually limitless, fat-derived fuel source. This alternative fuel is eminently more sustainable, particularly in the insulin resistant or carbohydrate intolerant individual.

Within a few days of starting on our carbohydrate restriction, most people begin excreting ketones in their urine. This occurs before serum have risen to their stable adaptive level….

Meanwhile, the body is undergoing a complex set of adaptations in ketone metabolism. ….

… Over time the urine ketone excretion drops off, ….

These temporal changes in how the kidneys handle ketones make urine testing a rather uncertain if not undependable way of monitoring dietary response/adherence. Testing serum for beta-hydroxybutyrate is much more accurate but requires drawing blood, and it is expensive because it is not a routine tests doctors normally order.
…
… the key question is why do it? Many people are able to initiate and follow a low carbohydrate diet just fine without ever measuring ketones. Others, however, find an objective measure of nutritional ketosis to be reassuring. …

Taken from inset in Chapter 16
Human Protein Tolerance
…
As a result of these observations, plus our studies of muscle retention and function during carbohydrate restriction, we recommend daily protein intakes between 1.5 and 2.5 gram per day per kg of reference weight. For a person on weight maintaining low carbohydrate diet, this typically translates to somewhere between 15% and 25% of your daily energy coming from protein.



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Here is Doctor Phinney's interview by Andreas Eenfeldt
http://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb-living

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There is so much more interesting, science and fact based information in this book, I highly recommend reading it for yourself.

Now, to why I am doing this experiment?
I am insulin resistant. I was on my way to total replacement of my insulin before eating low carbohydrate. I want to know how much protein will cause me to go out of nutritional ketosis. I also want to know how long it takes me to go into nutritional ketosis.

Dr. Phinney told us in his lecture that it can take up to two weeks in the beginning AND if we eat over the recommended amount of carbs and/or protein for a day or two we get kicked out of it and have to restart. I would like to know if that means I stop losing weight or feel different if I am out of serum tested nutritional ketosis.

Atkins dieters know that when we start dieting, we lose a large amount of water then the loss slows. It also sometimes stalls. Is it because we are eating too much protein and not enough fat? I have eaten a high fat low carb menu for about six months now, and when I recommend it to others I am asked about eating fat and trying to lose fat. How can that be the way to do it?

This is one way to show, not just tell.

I was traveling for about 19 days. I admit it, I tried to eat in the plan but it is hard to do while traveling. I also ate nuts, too many nuts….. And on the plane home, I had bread and ice cream covered in chocolate sauce. Yes, I cheated and gained a few pounds. However, I did not even think about the consequences of my ketone homeostasis. I am not sure if I had, that I would have skipped the ice cream, but probably would have skipped the bread.

I started back tracking on a strict low carb way of eating two days ago. Yesterday and today, I started fully tracking what I ate. I have had, what I call, the symptoms of low carb eating, icky tasting mouth that is always dry, dry eyes, and I can smell it in my urine. I have never tracked my urine ketones, but I imagined I would turn the sticks purple.

I had ordered the meter and the strips started testing today. The strips are expensive (!!!) so, I bought 10 and am only going to test every other day.
Goals
1. Am I in nutritional ketosis defined by my serum testing?

2. How long did it take to reach it, if I am not?

3. How easy is it to knock myself out of it?
3a. Looking at protein intake
3b. Looking at carb intake.

4. If I knock myself out, how long will it take to get back in?

5. How do I feel during the phases?

6. How much fat will it take to bring my calories up to maintenance level when I decide to stop?

Conclusions, how much of certain things can I eat? What are my goals with this way of eating?


I weighed 153.3 pounds today. So far, on low carb, I lost 50 pounds. I would like to weigh about 140 and lose the roll left around my middle. I have been eating LC for two days and have lost water.

According to the book, I need a daily protein intake between 1.5 and 2.5 gram per day per kg of reference weight. I am going to use my reference weight as 140 lbs.

Here, http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nut.../a/protein.htm I am told I need to eat at least 52 grams of protein a day.

So --140 lbs is 63.5029 kgs
I can eat 95 to 159 grams of protein a day and I plan on eating around or less than 30 net carbs a day to get into nutritional ketosis. At that level of carbs and even the highest level of protein, I should get into nutritional ketosis if I am not already.

And so I start. I will try to stay on my every second day testing schedule, and try my best to stay on target with my food. I really want to see what is ahead…..


Monday, July 16, 2012
1592 Calories
36 g carbs ( 18g net)
79g protein
132g fat
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Tuesday, July 17, 2012
Weight 153.3
Fasting glucose 92
Fasting ketones .2 (!!!! I thought I was there! I need a .5 or above to be in nutritional ketosis)

1730 calories
45 g carbs (21 net g)
66 g protein
150 g fat
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Weds July 18
Weight 153.3 (same as yesterday)
1818 Calories
38 g carbs ( 25g net)
84g protein
154g fat

I test tomorrow.
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Thursday July 19
Weight (hmmm, at 5 am it was 152.2 then came a complete lower digestive clean out –unbidden- and water aerobics and I was 151.6. I think I had better go with 152.2 LOL)
Fasting glucose 107 ** see below
Fasting Ketones .2 (How the heck did Jimmy Moore get to .5 in two days? Might be my higher glucose.)

1885 calories
33 g carbs (19 net)
65 g protein
173 g fat

**Okay, I have allowed myself to keep one thing, a habit that is going to make this way of eating a permanent thing for me. It is a comfort thing, I guess. After dinner, I have a snack, one that is built into my day. After I came home from my trip, I found the jar of peanut butter in the fridge and started mixing it with my coconut oil for a snack. I think that is the reason for the highest fasting reading I have had since I started this WOE. It is gone. Now I try coconut oil and an ounce of macadamia nuts for a snack.

[iioijjjkkojhbb]

Looking forward to seeing if this works for you. Did you see my message in the other spot you posted about this re the shipping to Aust if I want to buy the meter & strips?

[bF8CCmmr]

I'm going to be really interested to see how this goes for you. Thank you so much for sharing! After really the blog and watching the video, I wonder about protein levels as well.

[Fgunehjf]

Weds July 18
Weight 153.3 (same as yesterday)
1818 Calories
38 g carbs ( 25g net)
84g protein
154g fat

I test tomorrow.

From what Jimmy said, he is reducing the number of meals he eats, but also says he is not looking at the calorie count. From my experience, eating two meals a day, I have 1- 2 ozs of HWCream in my coffee and 1Tbs coconut oil in AM, You can still have a high number of calories. Fat itself is a high density food and packs in calories. I decided to stay at the calorie level I was using for maintenance, about 1850 or so and id I eat more or less, not to worry so much about it. In my opinion, the fat calories are metablized differently and so if they are the majority of calories I should lose until I stop or if I stall. If I stall I will reassess..... We shall see!

[carletoxtrs]

Good luck with your latest experiment! It's like you are our resident scientist!

[WeissVine]

Good luck Arlene.

[ivandiadser]

Good luck Arlene.

Thanks, but really do not need luck, just curious........


Here is Jimmy Moore's second month.... http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/j...ay-31-60/14669

[SkapySisy]

Thanks for posting his second month. The protein stuff is interesting. Based on what I read, I believe, I should be eating no more than 81g of protein a day. I've been about there or a little over each day. I'm going to have to cut back a bit. I will be interested in your update tomorrow.

[Borzopayn]

Allie wished you "good luck" also!

[Czrzftmz]

Allie and Jo, I will use your good luck wishes to find a reason for higher Glucose readings---thanks!

DAY 5 July 20, 2012
Weight 152 (!!! YEA !! even tho I was not in NK yesterday)
Fasting Glucose 102**
Fasting ketones (tomorrow)

1764 calories (I was seriously not hungry. I added olive oil to veges to get calories and fat in)
43 g carbs (25 net)
55 g protein
161 g fat

** this is not a crisis, but higher than I have been since I started. It is puzzling as I am closely watching carbs and protein, both supposed to be insulin-producing agents. I think it may have to do with my evening snack. I mixed ½ cup of unsweetened, shredded coconut in 1Tbs coconut oil and 1 oz macadamia nuts at 8:30pm. I am going to try 2 oz of macadamia nuts only tonight. It turns out mixing ½ c shredded coconut and 1 tbs coconut oil gives me
259 cals
3.6 net carbs
3 g sugar
27 g fat

While 2 oz of raw macadamia nuts
406 calories
3 net carbs
2 g sugar
4.4 g protein
43 g fat

DH is home from traveling and it is almost impossible to sit near him while he is snacking. If my glucose is still high tomorrow, then I will play with it more starting Sunday when he is gone again for a week.

Also having a major clean out of digestive system, unexpected. Coconut does produce that effect, although.

I am also taking Natural Calm ½ tsp and 2 SlowMags at night for leg cramps. I started taking it before bedtime, changed from AM, on my trip and was not checking my glucose then. That may be something else to look at. (Oh, I hope this is not it, my nightly leg cramps are finally almost completely gone and I sleep better than ever!)
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[Seilehogshell]

From all I have read re" "Slow mags" and "Natural Calm" I really don't think this is the problem, but I am no expert at all.

My son was having difficulty sleeping and experiencing anxiety and a bit of depression (I sure hope he has not inherited THAT!) He purchased Natural Calm a month ago at a Health store in Toronto and has found it amazing.....he sleeps well, anxiety is gone and he is back to his happy self. He is urging me to try it and I think I will.

Hopefully you will find out what is causing higher glucose readings.

Congrats on the 152 pounds.

You inspire everyone here with your wealth of information and links to so many excellent sites and videos. Thank you!

Have a great week-end.

[oemcheapdownload]

Congrats on the loss! That's great.

[amusaasyday]

From all I have read re" "Slow mags" and "Natural Calm" I really don't think this is the problem, but I am no expert at all.

My son was having difficulty sleeping and experiencing anxiety and a bit of depression (I sure hope he has not inherited THAT!) He purchased Natural Calm a month ago at a Health store in Toronto and has found it amazing.....he sleeps well, anxiety is gone and he is back to his happy self. He is urging me to try it and I think I will.

Hopefully you will find out what is causing higher glucose readings.

Congrats on the 152 pounds.

You inspire everyone here with your wealth of information and links to so many excellent sites and videos. Thank you!

Have a great week-end.

Jo, from all I have read about magnesium, I know we all need it. I LOVE Natural Calm am so much happier while taking it. I want to get my mom on more of it, to help her sleep, but have to be careful with the type. Her digestive system is sensitive. I have to do more research on that. I have read that Magnesium Orotate is one of the best we can take, but I don't know if it acts the same as magesuim citrate.

Thank you for your compliments.... you are the heart of this site.

[ranndomderr]

DAY 6 Sat. July 21, 2012

Weight 152.2 (not unexpected, it bounces until it sticks)
FASTING GLUCOSE 85 (OH YES!!! I will stay with macadamias for a snack for a while and later add back coconut to see what happens.
FASTING KETONES .4 (FINALLY!! Movement! I am encouraged. As I said yesterday afternoon, my appetite was not there until I actually started making dinner (DH is home so I had to.. lol and then I didn't know if I would have enough! Then at dinner, I ate less than I thought I would and could have skipped snack but needed the fat)

(Nutrition to be added later)

5:30 am, sitting here drinking my coffee with HWC and eating my coconut oil, today has started off good and since DH is leaving again for a week this morning, I can be strict for the next week. I am looking at two weeks of company after –grandsons- and wondering how this will go. There is no reason I can't stay pretty strict then, too.)

[TypeTeasiaDer]

Great news on the "fasting glucose" number and the "fasting ketones."

Sorry you will be alone again, but it will be easier to continue your experiment.

Wonderful that you will be seeing your grandsons and family again. Those hugs will help you get through those two weeks and because it is in your own home, you have CONTROL.

If anything, YOU are the "heart" of this site and I am amazed at all the research you have done and continue to do for the sake of finding out things to help you be healthier etc. as well as pass them on to all of us here.

Everyone contributes to the success of this forum by every post they submit.

Have a wonderful week-end and keep smiling.

Congratulations on your success so far with this newest experiment.

[JeorgeNoxeref]

It's awesome the way you embrace these experiments Arlene. Congrats on the loss. I can't wrap my head around the readings too well. Probably because glucose/diabetes/insulin and the likes have never been an issue for me. If it was maybe I would have forced myself to understand it all better. You are so pro-active and thats what makes you stand out! You pave the way for others like a pioneer!

[lollypopz]

This is a conversation that is on the other forum and will be good here, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Arlene, you might enjoy this interview transcript with Dr. Phinney from April 2011. Before the A&SLCL book was published, but he talks about protein levels:
http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011...than-high-carb/

I read the book from the library and can't refer to it now, but did he define "reference weight"? Have seen the mid-point of healthy BMI used before, which for me is 145 (in my dreams..college weight) and you around 120.


Very good Jey, Thanks for the reference. I have to point myself to a weight that I know I can maintain. I am looking at 140 but it might be higher. 120 is not even in my thoughts..... LOL

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JEY100 THIS IS A GOOD INTERVIEW.... Dr Phinney talks about athletes on this diet and WOE

""Most of the adaptation occurs in the first two weeks, but some of the fine tuning is going on four to six weeks after that.""

Okay, this is a long term thing and again, he says if you eat too much protien or too many carbs in one day, it will take this long again to get into the sweet spot.

""""Well, how about if, instead of eating just the leanest part of the meat, what if they eat a 14 ounce rib-eye steak. Or chicken with the skin. Will they avoid a rabbit fever problem, or is that still too much protein?

A lightly marbled steak, in terms of energy, is about 50-50 protein and fat. A heavily marbled steak is 75 percent of calories from fat and 25 percent from protein. Chicken, with the skin, dark meat’s going to be 50-50 protein and fat, but the white meat is going to be more protein, even with the skin on. So as an energy source, it’s too much protein . . . UNLESS the person is trying to lose weight, and getting fat from their body’s own fat stores. In other words, being on a higher fat diet because they’re getting fat from their body’s stores.

After all, many people, choose a low carb diet for weight loss. For them, a diet that’s moderate in protein may be high in fat because they’re burning their own fat for energy. When you go on a weight loss, ketogentic diet, you can eat less fat on your plate because you’re burning the fat that comes from your inside. It comes from your love handles and hips and so on.

When burning your own body fat, it looks like it’s a high protein diet. But the scales go down because the body’s burning it’s own fat stores. But if that persons loses weight and decides to stay on low-carb as a maintenance diet, in order to become weight stable, they need to eat a considerable amount of fat now, in other words, they need to increase their fat intake, which should work fine, because by now, their body should be very efficient at burning fat."""""


"""Well, if an athlete is eating a 14 ounce steak, is that too much protein?

It depends on the person’s height and weight. Also, the amount of protein you eat depends on how much muscle you need to maintain. So a tall, muscular man would need more protein to maintain lean body mass than a small less athletic woman.

Let’s describe an athlete about 6 feet tall and pretty muscular.

So his reference weight would be 80 kilograms, plus or minus a few. We recommend that on a low carbohydrate diet, people get 1.5 of protein per kilogram of body weight. So that would be 120 grams of protein. That’s the low end. And it can go to 2 grams per kilo, or 160 grams of protein per day. Now, a 14-ounce steak–each ounce of prepared steak has around 7 grams of protein, so it is just a bit shy of 100 grams of protein. If a person’s intake should be between 120 and 150, that steak represents more than half of their daily protein needs. So if the person had two eggs and 2 strips of bacon for breakfast, which would be about 25 grams of protein, and some tuna with celery and lettuce for lunch and then the steak for dinner, that might be about right for total protein. So that would be tolerable, as long as the person didn’t feel deprived by waiting for the high amount of protein in their evening meal.

That would be too much protein for me. I’m about 5 foot 7. And because I have a weak pancreas, I don’t have a lot of room for extra protein calories that might be converted to sugar. It would push my blood sugars up. That’s what happens to protein if someone eats too much.

So I try to eat less protein. Mary Gannon, another expert on protein metabolism would point out that people can have far less protein than you’re suggesting, because so much of the body’s protein can be recycled and used again. While you, talking about athletes, are talking about more protein than that."""

Excellent discussion on how important SALT and MAGNESIUM is...

I think... think... correct me if I am wrong, but what Dr Phinney is saying in this interview is that we need to look at the make up of the number of calories that we need to take in for weight loss differently than the make p of the calories we eat for maintanence. It seems that if we want to lose weight, we need to lower the number calories but keep the protein and carbs at the same percentage as we will when maintaining. When we maintain, we need to increase the fat, not the protein and he still limists his carbs because he, like me is insulin sensitive.......

So that means if I lose weight (and now I am wondering if I will or if I am eating too much fat...) on this road of my journey, at the end, what ever determines the end, I will increase the fat. Hmmmmm. More macadamias!!! LOL

[Kdgjhytiy]

It's awesome the way you embrace these experiments Arlene. Congrats on the loss. I can't wrap my head around the readings too well. Probably because glucose/diabetes/insulin and the likes have never been an issue for me. If it was maybe I would have forced myself to understand it all better. You are so pro-active and thats what makes you stand out! You pave the way for others like a pioneer!

Ahhh, Allie. thank you! I have had to get to know myself more since I made myself diabetic. I really want to eat like this for the rest of my life and want to understand best how to do it. I am not doing anything that a lot of others have not already done, just trying it for myself and seeing if I can repeat what they are doing! LOL And I love having the forums here to share on.

[Unwiseevove]

Originally Posted by JEY100
Arlene, basically, I think..yes. Have you looked at the charts in A&SLCL around page 208? Take those samples and work out your calorie numbers for each phase. The first thing that hits you is the amount of fat coming from your body in Phase 1, and second, then how you need to eat to replace it in Phase 4. But if you still want to lose in phase 2&3, yup, not so many calories and most of the fat should still be sucked out of our own fat stores.

ps: on reference weight, that 6 ft muscular guy at 80 kg is a BMI of 23.7, so highish end of the healthy range.

Jey, right, On page 207 they give us the formula for a moderately active, post obese adult, as expending (a modest estimate) of 35Kcal per kg of weight. So if I use 140 lbs converted to 63.5 kg x 35 I should be using at least 2222 kcalories a day and if I use 150 lbs, 68 kgs I could eat 2380 kcalories and as long as I keep protein in control, I should not gain on that amount of calories. If I decide to stop at 140lbs, eating 1850 kcalores a day, I can increase my calorie intake to at least 2222, keep protein at this number of grams and maintain by adding fat.

On page 210 is the Human Protein Tolerance insert where I found the numbers to calculate how much protein I should eat. I am shortish woman (5'2") so I am staying on the lower end of the numbers. I know when I was on Induction, I ate about 1400 calories, but here am allowing myself about 1850 on the percentage of protein suggested and want to see if I lose. So far, I am.......

If we are in the group of believers in insulin response being responsible for a lot of the weight we cannot lose or even gain, then me tracking my protein at this level and even at a higher number of calories than when I was trying to lose, keeping the protein lower than before, should cause me to lose because I am still using more body fat. I should lose until I hit a balance. I exercise moderately.

Right now I am losing at a pretty fast rate, faster than I expected and I am not even in full Nutritional Ketosis.

[ENCOSEARRALIA]

DAY 7 July 22, 2012

Weight 151.2 (!!! )**
Fasting Glucose 89

1831 calories
44 g carbs (21 net)
81 g protein
155 g fat


** I am very surprised at this. And this morning, even though it is not a testing ketone day, I was so tempted to because my mouth is different today. I do not have the dusty carpet in it today, but it was there, big time yesterday and I was hungry! All day! I walked the normal 6 miles with my friends this morning and could have gone a couple more. I am not tired.