[VIAGRA-]

This might be a good time to clarify, in simple terms, what a shaman actually is and what a shaman does. So here is what I hope is a simple guide to shamanism and the role of the shaman.

What does a shaman do?

A shaman is someone who crosses into other dimensions where he obtains information, guidance and healing from the benevolent entities that he meets in those dimensions. These entities have been given many names throughout history — devas, spirits and gods to name but a few. The shaman then brings this information, guidance and healing that he gleans from these entities back to his tribe or community.

How does a shaman cross into other dimensions?

The shaman crosses into other dimensions while in a trance state. This is what’s known as the shamanic journey. It is not a physical journey. The shaman’s physical body does not go on a journey. If you saw a shaman crossing into another dimension, all you would see is his body prone on the floor looking like someone who’s asleep — except for the occasional twitch as power surges through him.

The trance state is also known to scientists as the theta state. They have found that if a person is exposed to a certain rhythm (between 4 and 7 beats per second), their brain will enter the theta state. This is why shamans use drums, and the beating of the drum is the usual, classical way that a shaman enters a trance — although there are many other ways, including the ingestion of psychotropic herbs (soma and ayuhasca to name to be two).

The shaman lives in two simultaneous realities: the inner dream space in which spiritual encounters transform perception of the external world, and the external world which becomes the stage on which the shaman acts out his divine purpose as healer. Each time the shaman enters trance for the good of patients and community and confronts the agents of affliction, there is psychological integration for the shaman. The shaman brings together heaven and earth, spirit and humankind. Shamanism appears in every culture. Amongst Tibetan people, it predates (and is woven into) Buddhist philosophy and practice, and is a vital and living wisdom tradition practiced from ancient times into present day.

The Ghe-Wa (Tibetan Death Rite) for Pau Karma Wang Chuk Namgyal, by Larry Peters (for Shaman's Drum.) Why am I not called a shawoman?

I am not called a shawoman because the ‘man’ bit of the Siberian word ‘shaman’ does not refer to the male of the species. So it is not a gender specific word and that’s why a bunch of shamans are not called a bunch of shamen. The correct collective noun would be a bunch of shamans. Or a gaggle of shamans … or something like that.

Anyway, as mentioned, the word ‘shaman’ comes from Siberia. But thousands of years ago, there were shamanic practises of one kind or another all over the world, in every populated country. And so the shaman and shamanism was known by many different names, and it might be useful to know a few of them, so if the word comes up in different cultures, we’ll know what they’re talking about.

Andean (Quecha) shaman — P’ago
Arab (pre Moslem) — Baksylvk
Australian shamanism — Wulla-mullung
Australian spirit — Budian
Bedouin form of shamanism — Fugara
Celtic shaman - Druid
Chinese shaman —Tang-ki
Hawaiian form of shamanism — Huna Kane
Indian Vedic shaman — Rishi
Indonesian shaman — Dukun
Inuit shaman — Angakok
Jewish shaman — Baal Shem (in Hebrew, it means "Master of the Name")
Korean female shaman — Mondang
Korean shamanic initiation — Nae-Rim-Kut
Lakota spirits — Wakan Tanka
Meso American shaman — Nagual
Nigerian shaman — Babalawo
Norse female shaman —Voelva/Volva/Vala/Seidhkona
Peruvian shaman —Sheripiari
Siberianshaman - Shaman
Tibetan shaman — Pa’wo
Tibetan shamanism — Bonpo
Turkish shaman — Sahir-þairl
Ukrainian female shaman — Znakharka
Voodoo female shaman — Mambo
West African spirits — Kontomblé

I hope this helps. I’ll add to this thread later, giving more detail about the other dimensions and the spirits.

If anyone can add to the list of names, please do let me know. And of course, please ask if anything’s not clear.

[oliverlogo]

Hi Ish,

The trance state is also known to scientists as the theta state. They have found that if a person is exposed to a certain rhythm (between 4 and 7 beats per second), their brain will enter the theta state This is very interesting, in a scientific view point. When the brain enters theta wave territory, commonly associated with the dropping off to sleep. In this state, some people can experience Hypnagogic hallucinations. These can include visual or auditory phenomena. I have experienced myself at times, particularly if I have been playing a new computer game or something, and there have been times when I have thought I have heard someone say my name (which scares the hell out of you at the time).

What is very interesting in the shamanistic point of view is that this state of awareness is thought to help with insight into particular problems. See this wiki entry for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnago...nation#Insight. I know from personal experience, that if i have a problem that I am trying to work out, I tend to think upon it before sleeping, which sometimes helps (though not always). I think this is also where the saying "Sleep on it" comes from for making important decisions.

Now, the pure sceptical scientist would suggest that shamanism is merely an art where an individual s able to make themselves receptive to this form of thinking, and are able to control their thought processes to use this method to great effect in solving problems. For example, the shaman was often seen as the wise man of the village, whom those with problems would go to for help, and after a trance, the shaman would have the solution. This brain wave pattern may also be involved in meditation techniques. Nothing focuses the chaos and turmoil of a mind quite like a sloution to a difficult situation or problem.

This is what a pure scientist would say, and fortunately most scientists are human, and are capable of encorporating other world views into their system (i know many physicists that are also religious). However, the brain is susceptable to suggestion, as evidenced by hypnosis (bark like a chicken, cluck like a dog stuff). One theory of hypnosis is that the brain is switched from its awake state, to a more theta state. Interestingly enough, it is often depicted with the rythm of a swinging pendulum, reminiscent of the drums for other shamans. So one may suggest that a mechanism of shamanic traveling would be the suggestiveness of the theta state to "outside" phenomena, by which I include consciousness and entities outside of our understanding of the universe. Thus, visions and prophesis by shamans and prophets, may be due to their abilty to use their brains as some sort of antenna fro communicating with a different layer of reality, (whatever reality may actaully be??).

Infact, the shaman may actually use both ideas. On the one hand, some of their information is pure insight on their parts, and on teh other, information from "external" sources. However, in both counts, I would suggest that it is not always the case that the information brought back is correct. Throughout history and cultures, there have always been talk of malevalont spirits of one form or another (forces, entities or whatever you wish to call them). It is often warned not to play with the Ouija board, as to is the equivalent of opening your house front dorr, and inviting the first person to walk past in. If shamanism, (or chanelling or whatever) is true at face value, then surely there are enitities out there who wish to mislead. Also, going back to the more scientific view point (the idea that the trance state helps with insight), to quote the physicist Richard Feynman

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."

"I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy."

Coming out of a trance, you may think taht your solution is correct, but it may not be, as you are limited to the knowledge and understanding inherant in your brain.

Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter, from my point of view. thank you for posting on this to help clarify the shamanist position. It is a very interesting subject, regardless if it is viewed on a scientific perspective, or otherwise.

Jonny

[Japakefrope]

Jonny

You've made some good points and raised some interesting questions. I will answer all your points shortly. But first of all, a lot of what you've raised in terms of "How do we know we're not just making it up?" and "Are we just fooling ourselves?" etc was covered in a post I did a couple of weeks ago, and which has been buried down here in the Underworld, so you may not have seen it)

So here it is:

I'd like to introduce you to Tom Kenyon, although he is very difficult to describe and I don't want to limit him by labelling him. But among many other things, he is a shaman that knows how to get to and channel the sound that vibrates at the heart of the atom ... and this makes him a very powerful sound healer. But his roots are also in classical science, which also makes him a very effective guide at the crossroads .. a translator who can bring people that are rooted in one reality into understanding another.

I think you'll see what I mean by reading these extracts from his essay on psycho-navigation ... which is his term for what happens on the shamanic journey.

Psycho-navigation by Tom Kenyon

Part One

Psycho-navigation, simply stated, is the mental experience of moving through inner space (the perceived space of the mind). It can involve the movement backward or forward in time, and/or moving into different orientations of space other than is normally experienced. Sometimes psycho-navigations can involve shifting one’s sense of personal identity, thereby gaining abilities or insight not normally possessed by the individual. These states of mind or mental attention can also involve moving in or out of an experience (such as a memory or fantasy) in order to gain useful information. Psycho-navigation is a fascinating ability that seems to be inherent in human brain activity.

Research in psycho-neurology has demonstrated beyond a doubt that EEG activity in the alpha/theta range can stimulate a virtual cornucopia of non-ordinary phenomena—especially those conducive to psycho-navigation.

The reasons for this are rooted in our very neurophysiology. As brain activity slows down from the normal waking states of beta (12- 16HZ) into the more relaxed states of alpha (8-12HZ), there is a decrease in muscle tension, respiration, blood pressure and heart rate. There is also a decrease in stress hormones, like adrenaline. The entire physical organism relaxes, more or less, depending upon the depth of alpha and its duration.

Generally speaking, and based upon my own clinical observations as a psychotherapist over the last twenty-three years, I would say that alpha activity sustained for at least twenty minutes or so, generates the above mentioned relaxation effects for most people.

As an Ericksonian hypnosis practitioner, I would often guide my clients into profound altered states of attention through a combination of Ericksonian metaphorical language and a simple focus of attention on the part of my client. I would have him or her focus on the breath, for example, and an appendage, say an arm or a hand. This focus of mental attention shifted their neurological activity. The use of specific metaphorical language combined with focused attention on the part of the client caused radical shifts in brain processing to occur.

At various points in our sessions, clients would lose consciousness of the external environment, i.e. my office, and instead enter into a deep dream-like activity. I call these waking-dream states in that the person is indeed awake and often sitting, but the mental experience is very similar to a dream.

Theoretically this is caused by an increase in theta activity (4-8HZ). Theta is a much slower brain state than alpha, and whereas alpha is characterized by a relaxed attention, theta leaves the person with an ever-decreasing awareness of the external environment. The inner mental realities of the individual become more vivid and in certain ranges of theta (usually the lower) the individual loses much of his or her conscious perceptual contact with the external world. This decreasing of external sensory-based awareness may simply be due to the fact that the next brain state down from Theta is Delta (0.5 – 4HZ).

In Delta, there is very little awareness of the external world. And in the lower ranges of Delta there is no awareness at all. The one notable exception to this, based on research in the area of mediation and sleep, has to do with meditators. It seems that experienced meditators often report a fourth state of consciousness, in which the body is experienced as asleep while the mind is aware of itself as the object of its own attention. This body of research comes mostly out of Maharishi International University and researchers studying the effects of transcendental meditation. The research is interesting but not conclusive at this time. However, based upon my own experience, as well as that of other meditators I personally know—who, like me, use many diverse meditation practices—this fourth state of consciousness is an experiential reality. But let’s turn our attention back to theta, as this is the brain state responsible for the experience of psycho-navigation.

EEG Realities

First of all, whenever I say theta, alpha or whatever, I do not mean to imply that the entire brain is ever in this one energetic state. The terms alpha and theta are statistical markers. The brain is never in any single brain state (except perhaps during coma and, of course, death). But in an alive and normally functioning brain, there are numerous types of brain waves simultaneously being generated all over the place. Anyone who has seen an EEG Topographical Brain Map can see this clearly. If you haven’t seen one of these, I invite you to check out a sample on my website: www.tomkenyon.com click on the Acoustic Brain Research tab, and go to the paper entitled Anecdotal Study Of EEG Effects on ABR Wave Form. It presents three topographical EEGs, which you can view on line.

What becomes very clear through topographic brain mapping studies is that there are multiple ranges of activity taking place at any given moment in the neocortex. During EEG studies involving this particular type of technology (neuromapping), researchers compare all the raw data coming in via electrodes, and conduct a statistical analysis, which is usually done automatically by computer software. The result is a schematic representation of brainwave activity that shows the locations of EGG activity, which brain states are dominant in those areas, and the strength of those brain waves.

Euphemistically, some people say things like “you have entered alpha, or theta.” While such labels may serve a purpose for those using them, such statements are, neurologically incorrect.

This may seem like an overly technical point to some (other than you scientists), but I feel such clarifications are a vital part of our understanding as we look at non-ordinary states of body and mind. Indeed, as we turn our attention to the mental phenomena of psycho-navigation, it is vital that we be grounded in our approach. We are not seeking some type of delusion here. Rather we are looking to develop an aspect of our own consciousness that allows us to think and perceive “outside the box.” And in my personal experience, nothing allows us to step outside the box as clearly as the mental act of psycho-navigation.

The Two Inter-locking Worlds of Theta

My ten years in brain research, under the auspices of Acoustic Brain Research, has created my personal conviction that theta waves create a dual-action within our neurophysiology. Theta activity both decreases our experience of the external environment, while opening the doors of perception into an inner world of sensory-based experience. It is as if the outer world disappears, and instead, a vivid and seemingly real inner world of attention opens before us. He then goes on to give some clinical observations.

And there is music of his, based on his Acoustic Brain Research, to download here

I'll answer your other questions in my next post, Jonny. Let you digest this one first.

[VeniHemealm]

JonnyMcA,
I would look into DMT if I were you.

Kevin

[OnlineViagraCheapestFREE]

So Jonny, some of your questions, I hope, were answered by the last post on Psycho Navigation … or at least it should have set the stage for where I’m coming from.

So here are my answers to the other questions or points you raised, and I think they boil down to this:

Are there malevolent spirits?

I’m glad you’ve asked this one as I’ve pretty well majored in this subject. The answer is: yes and no … but mainly no.

Let’s put it like this: there are three kinds of beings that are misconceived to be evil spirits. The first one is entirely fictional; the second one is not a spirit at all and the third one is misguided.

I’ll explain:

1. The fictional “evil spirit”. This is one you read about in many ancient myths — but he is a fictional character that plays a role in a play or story that is actually a metaphor for a more scientific meaning. For instance, the bad spirits and the good spirits in the Vedas work together to churn the Cosmic Ocean of Milk. All the stories about a war of good and evil in the heavens also fall under this category, with good angels and bad demons. These are the terms used for what we call electromagnetic energy, with the good representing the positive and the bad representing the negative charge.
2. The “evil spirit” who isn’t a spirit at all. Digit’s poltergeist falls into this category. These are not the benevolent entities that the shaman works with. No, this sort of spirit we sometimes call a ghost. It is a former human that doesn’t realise that it’s dead, for one reason or another. They’re generally not so much evil as disruptive, usually because they’re trying to get your attention as Digit will testify — luckily Digit has prescient vision and knows when it’s going to happen, so he shouts “Duck!”.
3. The misguided “evil spirit”. These are misguided shamans, who, possibly thousands of years ago, took an oath to their tribes that they would always protect the ancestral land. I don’t know how this happens, but it does. At death, they don’t leave but hang around in a kind of timeless warp so that they can protect the tribal lands, even though their tribe has long gone. I know of lots of these in Africa and also walking across Dartmoor, I have sensed them. If you do encounter one of these, it is probably best to get off their land as that is all they require of you, and as they are much more powerful than you, it’s a fight you won’t win!

But the entities or spirits in the other dimensions who help the shaman are none of the above. They are entirely benevolent and they are only hanging around to serve man’s evolution as a soul in an entirely voluntary way. They could just go off to the next dimensions and forget about man … and who would blame them? But they choose to stay and help, and those are the spirits that the shaman works with. These spirits are all-knowing but they are not all-powerful, because man has free-will.

I would disagree, though, that what they tell us 'doesn't always work' or 'isn't always true'. In my experience, my spirits have a 100 per cent success rate.


How do you know it’s not just all in your mind?

What you actually said was:

Coming out of a trance, you may think that your solution is correct, but it may not be, as you are limited to the knowledge and understanding inherent in your brain.

OK, can I ask you to think of a television set? When you're watching The Simpsons or Seinfeld or whatever, do you think those characters are all in your television set? No, of course, not … that’s how a child thinks.

In the same way, although thoughts are subatomic particles (iow they are things) they are not stored in that physical grey matter we have in our head which we call the brain. Scientists are now finding that we have other brains in the body too, or at least one in the stomach. Psychoneuroimmunologists would say that the mind actually run right through the body, having a direct effect on our health with, for example, stress related diseases. However, the shaman would say that the mind is not a physical, finite entity at all, but more like a field that exists around the body and through the body and even exists in an extended form, which is how we have collective consciousness.

This means that just like The Simpsons are beamed over the air waves and into our television sets, so do our thoughts. We are transmitters and receivers at the same time, and it’s up to us to make sure we tune into the right television stations that will give us helpful information — unlike some people who are constantly tuned to the porn and shopping channels!

I hope this helps, but please do ask further if anything’s not clear.

[SergeyMaikov]

Float Time.

As I have a lot to do with boats, this is apropos.

Float time, as I call it, can happen awake or asleep.

In either case you are aware of it.

I don't know exactly how to describe it.

It is as if all your perceptive doors and windows are open,

And you are not wearing shoes, so your bare feet touch the earth.

It is timeless.

You travel anywhere you want.

You may be engaging with everyday reality,

But "seeing it" according to an entirely different perception.

Or you may be, as I call it, "off planet"

Into a universe with no connection to "everyday reality."

Sometimes I feel I will never come back,

But, so far I always have.

There is no either/or here.

This is a terrible description.

But I am happiest, and most aware,

And most alive in float time.

I bring it back with me into the everyday

As raw, creative energy.


hoka hey

john

[BJEugene]

It is very difficult to describe, John, isn't it?

And also how much the whole experience really does add to your creativity is something few understand. Making time for Float Time is so important, and is not a waste of time … it is one of the best uses of time that you can make … to be a human being instead of a human doing.

I always think of Mole and Ratty in Wind in the Willows and that famous phrase of theirs, that there was nothing better than messing around in boats. I think that the phrase, "messing around in boats" in that magical tale does capture something of the spirit of Float Time, and might stand as a metaphor for it.





You said "Sometimes I feel I will never come back". That interested me, because it helps lead into the question I was going to answer next: "But what if I get stuck there." So ...

Can the shaman get stuck in the other dimensions?

If you're trained properly, you have absolutely no excuse to get "stuck there". On the other hand, I have heard tell of shamans that felt they'd 'met all their appointments' (a shamanic expression) in this Earthly dimension, and so on hitting the other side, just kept on going.

But getting into these dimensions and getting back safely is part of the training of the shaman, and how it works is as part of the function of the drum. The shaman uses a drummer to help him journey. There is a certain rhythmic beat that you start the journey on. Once the journey is on its way, the drummer settles down into a steady beat of between 4 and 7 a second. But when it is time for you come back, the drummer will change his rhythm and you hear this change, no matter where you are … and you know that this is the signal to return.

So you journey on the beat of the drum. You got out on the beat of the drum, and you come back on the beat of the drum. This is why some shamans refer to their drums as flying horses … or say they fly through the air on the drum. They don’t physically fly through the air on a drum. It is a metaphor for this process.



Once you hear the return signal of the drum, it's then important to retrace your steps and return exactly the way you came.

[Vemnagelignc]

How does all this differ from what I know as "dayderaming."

[freediscountplanrrxip]

KBS and Ishtar -

I've never had any fear of not being able to return.

Rather than being stuck, it's rather like crossing a stream without getting your feet (too) wet.

You look at the pattern of steppable stones and your mind/body/spirit focus allows you

To cross the stream without a misstep.

You might choose to return, you might choose to continue on.

Interestingly enough, Ishtar, I have never done this with the aid of a drum.

So I wonder where I sense that 4/7 beat?

KBS; daydreams.

We all walk around, in my opinion, with a complete set of body armor and mind armor,

Developed over the years to protect us from the slings and arrows of daily life.

Body armor is generally called "body language."

Mind armor is a person's "mindset."

Both are anathema to shamanic perception.

When you daydream, it is within the context of your existing mind and body armor.

So daydreams, in my opinion, are always reactionary fantasies to the mundane.

When you go into float time, the first thing that happens is that your existing mind and body armor

Simply slough off. And quickly, as in two to five minutes.

It is the most amazing sensation and perception.

All that is left is the core you and multiple dimensions,

And an incredible simultaneity of awe, pleasure, vast perception, and true ownership of your very self.

hoka hey

john

ps

jonnyMca

The same happens with scientists, does it not?

I think of Poincare on the train.

j

[Luisabens]

John, the drum beat is just one way, albeit the most common. There are many other ways and everyone finds the one that suits them best. I have done it in absolute silence.

[topcasinobonua]

“So daydreams, in my opinion, are always reactionary fantasies to the mundane.”

Well I have to admit that some of my daydreams fall into the fantasy category.

But I have been into a more “zombie like” state and come out with answers to problems that were, of course, there all the time, but unseen.
And I cannot say I went into these states on purpose.
You just kind of “zone out” unpredictably.
(And, no, I have no history of drug use. The strongest things I have ingested are caffeine and alcohol.)

I don’t recall journeys to other places or meeting other people (?) though.

[Thomas12400]

I don’t recall journeys to other places or meeting other people (?) though.

Going to 'other places' and 'meeting other people' happens in the classic shamanic journey, and seems to only pertain to that ... not that the other ways of 'zoning out' don't have value.

But when the shaman journeys, he actually visits a common landscape that all shamans describe.

There are three worlds: the Upper World, Middle World and Lower World.

The Upper World has an actual landscape of cities and forests and everything you would expect to find in a dimension populated by humans, as it is the human form that's taken on by the entities that the shamans find in this landscape.

(Remember, these entities are actually composed of pure energy and only take on seeming material bodies so that the shaman can interact with them.)

The Middle World is the dimension that our Universe is on, including our galaxy, our solar system and our planet Earth - all of these things are in the Middle World, but a lot more besides that, that we can't ordinarily see (and this is what I think Cropredy sees).

The Lower World (or Underworld) also consists of a landscape with features - some like a tamed countryside, some more wild - but one doesn't encounter cities there, and the light is different to the Upper World, somehow denser. The entities in the Lower World also appear differently ... rarely, although sometimes, in human form, but much more usually as an animal.

The shaman's so-called Power Animal also appears to him in the Lower World and is often an animal version of his spirit guide who appears to him in the Upper World in human form. My own Power Animal (as was the Babylonian Ishtar's) is a Lion, but he appears to me as a human in the Upper World.

[Staillateno]

Interessant -

http://archaeology.about.com/b/2009/04/ ... eology.htm

To which list, of course, I'll add "Scientists."

No insult intended to those who are here, of course.

Just another open question.

hoka hey

john

[Antelpebabe]

John, I'm answering both your good self and KBS with this story entitled:

The Shaman-Priest Continuum

Once upon a time, way way way way back …… deep in the mists of long, long ago, man lived in harmony with Nature.

In those dim and distant days, while a young man was wandering with this sheep, or helping to pitch a new camp, or waiting by the great sacred river in the dark of night for the salmon run, his Elders would share with him everything they knew. They would use the stars, reflected in the water of the stream or river, as a picture book. And they would trace out these pictures to tell him stories about where he came from and who he was and how he fitted into the material universe.






The Elders taught him how Father Sun made love with Mother Earth so that everything could grow and thrive. They showed him which plants the Earth had provided for treating different ailments. And they explained to him that the love affair between Father Sun and Mother Earth was just a tiny part of the whole of All That Is, or The Whole, which was composed of an interwoven material or Web of spirits, or gods and goddesses, who were engrossed in one huge, never-ending fertility dance.







And they taught him that whatever was in the above — the heavens — was reflected in the below — the Earth.







All these teachings took place over many years. Then once the young man had understood what was known about the material universe, the Elders would consider that he was ready for the next stage. He would then be taught how to shift his awareness from the gross material so that he could commune with the Whole – or take Wholly Communion. This was because they knew that in taking wholly communion, a man would be empowered and informed by the Whole and could act with strength and knowledge from that place. In fact, having this knowledge would make him a man. In those days, a boy had to earn his manhood. It was not just something that was automatically awarded to him on his 14th birthday.

So first of all, he was taught that the world that he saw around him was just one world within one dimension. Then the Elders told him that this one dimension was one of Three dimensions that made up the Whole, the Wholly Trinity.

The Three Dimensions of the Whole were: The Upper World, The Lower World and the Middle World, of which this Earth is just a very small part.

This symbol shows the Three Dimensions of the Whole as they intersect one another in this sacred geometry.







So from this understanding came the sacred Law of Threes. The triangle was considered to be the wholiest of symbols in their sacred geometry and, as you can see, it is the result of just extracting the inner part of the three intersecting circles.







Once the young man had been taught about the Three Worlds that made up the Whole, he was taught how to alter his consciousness so that he could journey into these worlds and meet with the spirits that inhabit them. The spirits could then offer him guidance to any questions he had about how to live his life, or where the tribe should travel to next, or how to effect a healing on someone who was ill, or anything else that was on his mind.

Then finally, the whole teaching session culminated in what was known as an initiation. The young man would be initiated by the Elders into this awareness of the Whole.

The whole initiation process would often go on for weeks, and the young man would be taken, often with his friends, away from the tribal settlement and into the forests. As with any schooling, there were tests and trials and also some dangers, as he learned to deal with the spirits or god and goddesses who powered the Whole. Once the trials had been passed and the knowledge had been gained, the whole affair would be rounded off with a rite of passage ceremony.


African boys at initiation ceremony



Now that the young man had achieved his manhood, he was able to commune with the Whole. He was able to understand how the spirits communicated to him, and not just when he was in a trance or altered state. He could also receive messages from the spirits by how, for instance, a black crow flew across a pink dawn sky, or by how an ash tree waved its branches in the wind, or even in how, on certain days, the Sun winked at him, or how at night, the Moon would smile at him a lullaby.





Initiation was always carried out by the Elders of the tribe, who had been initiated by their Elders, who had been initiated by their Elders and so on and so on, as far back as anyone could remember. But as with everything in life, it sometimes seemed like one member of the tribe had a particular gift or or talent with communicating with the spirits. And so although he would have many other roles within the tribe, one of those roles would be to take the lead during the initiations. In one country, the Elders who specialised in the communing with the Whole were known as Shamans. But they were known by many other names throughout the rest of world.

This system worked very well for millennia, and man was able to live in harmony with who he saw as his Mother Earth, who provided for him and his tribe as they roamed from place to place with his flocks, benefiting from the cornucopia of Her largesse.

But then something happened … and to this day, nobody knows what. There are many theories, of course. It could have been due to climate change, perhaps even caused by a comet or a meteor. We don’t really know why. But ancient man suddenly (well, over a period of a couple of thousand years) decided to settle down.

Now he no longer roamed as a nomad with his herds, but instead, he started to create agricultural settlements. It seemed a good idea at the time and so nobody really argued against it. They could grow as many grasses as they liked and then harvest their grains and turn them into wheat or rice or maize or corn meal. And they could keep their animals in the settlements … so long as they made sure they got enough grazing, for which some ingenious techniques had to be invented … like moving the cattle up to the high ground in the summer and the lower pastures for the winter.

The new system of agriculture sort of worked, after a fashion. But it did require a lot more organisation and much more hard toil on everybody's part, and the results were very much dependent on the weather. If it had rained a lot one year during their old way of life ... well, they would have just got a bit wet. But now they could lose a whole year's food over it.

Most of the members of the tribe were required to maintain the digging, planting, weeding, reaping, grinding and baking on a pretty permanent basis, with barely a day off. But they did designate at least one day off a week, which they named after their prime benefactor, Father Sun. And they would also have special festival days when, according to the stars, the seasons were changing. And on all those special days, they would give thanks to Father Sun and Mother Earth, and they would be led in those ceremonies by the Elder of the tribe who specialised in the spiritual, who was known in Siberia as a Shaman.






After a while, the people began to think about finding ways of working smarter, and some of them decided to divide up the tasks, to make themselves more efficient. And they began to practise division of labour. And once they divided up their labour, they began to divide up everything else too. So they started to see themselves as the Workers who provided the material wellbeing of the tribe. And they began to see the Shaman as the one who provided the spiritual wellbeing of the tribe. And more and more this gulf between material and spiritual appeared … and then it widened.

Of course, everyone still tried to put aside as much time as possible to learn about the Whole. But that’s the crux of the matter. They had to put the time aside. The spiritual — or communing with spirits — was no longer an integral part of their work-a-day lives.

The initiations still took place. But over thousands of years, they eventually became grand and enormous affairs, where hundreds or even thousands would come from far and wide on special festival times to be trained in what came to be known as the Mysteries. As you can imagine, with so many wanting initiations, it was difficult to manage the process properly, to make sure everyone got exactly the right training and were able to pass the initiation tests. And so it was decided by the Elders to divide up the Mysteries, so that one Mysteries session would take place on the spring equinox and another on the autumn equinox.

Thousands upon thousands would flock from far and wide to attend the first event which was held at the Spring equinox, and which culminated in a mass baptism, or water initiation. Many of the outer initiation teachings would be given in the form of stories and plays that were in allegorical form, in other words, the true meanings were hidden. All of this was to prepare those who were ready for the Mysteries event proper, the fire initiation, which would take place on the autumn equinox.

These two events became known as the Lesser Mysteries and the Greater Mysteries. But only a Chosen Few made it through from the Lesser to the Greater Mysteries, where the true, inner meanings of the plays were revealed to the initiates. In other words, it was only at the Greater Mysteries that initiates were shown that these plays were allegories which had a dual purpose – as both a spiritual and an astronomical teaching.

At the Lesser Mysteries, to help people remember the names and qualities of all the various spirits or gods who were portrayed in the plays, the gods were moulded into models or statues. And their likenesses were reproduced and painted on to pottery.

This was the beginning of what's known as the pantheistic religions.

Eleusinian gods. Detail from an Athenian red-figure clay vase, about 335-325 BC.




And instead of having an Elder using reflected stars in the great sacred salmon river to weave his stories, colourful and elaborate plays would be performed at the Lesser Mysteries. One of these plays featured a sun god who died and then rose again from the dead three days later, just as the Sun ‘died’, or reached the nadir of its course on its yearly cycle during the winter solstice, and then begins its journey north again three days later.





By now, too, they had started to write down these same metaphorical astronomical stories on papyrus and vellum, and these were stored in great and famous libraries all over the world, like the one at Alexandria.





The Mysteries continued successfully for at least two thousand years, and for a long time, nobody knew about the secret teachings at the Greater Mysteries. This was probably because initiates were under threat of a death penalty if they revealed anything of what they’d been taught!

But because only those who were deemed ready were chosen from the crowds at the Lesser Mysteries for the rigours of the spiritual tests and trials and dangers of the Greater Mysteries, many left the Lesser Mysteries thinking that they’d been revealed the full teachings.

Now I’m sure you’ve heard of the expression, “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.” Or perhaps you’ve seen the Disney cartoon, The Sorcerer’s Apprentice?








Well, no-one’s quite sure how it happened, but happen it did. A small clique of those people who attended the Lesser Mysteries — or at least knew the stories that were told and performed at them — decided that they must be true, that the Sun god who had died and risen again, three days later, had been a real person who had once lived. Not only that, they also believed that this real dying and resurrecting godman was born in Nazareth thousands of years after the first one of these plays was ever performed.

Now most people at the time, on hearing this, split their sides with laughing and some even felt a bit sorry for this group. For one thing, they knew that 'Nazarene' was a Judaic rendering in metaphor for the Indian Naga or wise serpent teacher. But still, for hundreds of years, it stayed that way, with the small cult that believed in a real historical dying and resurrecting godman being regarded by everyone else as a harmless bunch of eccentrics who had misunderstood the metaphorical teachings. And this is exactly how it would have stayed if it hadn’t been for a power hungry emperor called Constantine.







The Holy Roman Emperor Constantine had heard about the beliefs of this cult - that the dying and resurrecting godman was a historical account about a real person. And so he thought to himself: “That’s just the sort of religion that I need to control all the peoples of my vast empire.” … or something like that, anyway.

He had realised that, because the nature of the philosophy of this particular group was literal rather than metaphorical, it would make a wonderful control mechanism. He could control his whole empire through guilt and fear - or what became known as Original Sin. In addition, by setting up a historical figure who died for the sins of the people, and who interceded with the gods/God on their behalf, then the followers did not need to have their own relationships with the spirits, or gods or God. All that they had to do to be ‘saved’ was to believe in this Sun god fellow. And any interactions between the mundane and the divine could all be nicely handled by a Pope that would be appointed by the Emperor and given the title of God’s Representative on Earth.

And so all that messy and subjective and unpredictable mystical and spiritual business was finally taken out of the hands of the people and left solely to the priests who had been appointed by the Pope. And because the second initiation (the fire initiation) was the initiation that put ordinary individuals into Wholly Communion with the spirits, it was banished, leaving only the water initiation, the baptism - oh, and another ritual with bread and wine which was all in Latin, a language no-one really understood. In other words, the people were cut off from their gods and thus disempowered.

And so during Constantine’s reign, and the subsequent reigns of the emperors who followed him over hundreds of years, the whole edifice of the Mystery teachings was destroyed. The libraries where all the knowledge of the Whole was stored were burned down, the places where it was taught were sacked and put to the torch, and thousands of dissenters were named as heretics or pagans and murdered.

Of course, it took a long time to wipe out people's memories that they once had had their own individual experience with, and thus were empowered by, the gods or God. Much killing and destruction took place over generations, all over the empire. You can see how extensive it was from the coloured bit of this map which also shows the names of each country’s mythical dying and resurrecting godman, the memories of which had all to be wiped out or demonised in order for the version of the historic godman to remain publicly perceived as true.







Even the priestly astronomers at this time were suppressed. Once, one pointed out that the Earth was round. Another that the Earth went round the Sun. But because all the literature and learning had been destroyed, no-one could quite remember what shape the Earth was, or how it fitted into everything else. And anyway, these astronomers' teachings went against the teachings of the priesthood, that the Earth was the centre of the Universe, and not the Sun.

And so what became of the Three Worlds of the Whole that was supported by the Law of Threes, represented by the triangle?





There's a lot more to this tale ... about how the rational thinkers of Enlightenment took this learning out of the hands of the Church, and how all matter had to be rendered meaningless (and godless) for this separation of Church and State to take place without too many tears on either side. And about how, because of this, we are still only left with one third of the Whole. We have been cut off from two-thirds of our natural heritage, our birthright. But that's all very political and so I think I'll leave it for another day.

The point of this story was to show what was meant by the shaman-priest continuum. And now that you’ve heard the whole sorry tale, I hope you will be able to make up your own mind about what really went on, and where and why and how the shaman was replaced by the priest.

[JediReturns84]

Wow,
I asked you what time it was,
and you told me how to build a clock.
There are some parts o your history that I may differ with you,
but it was a good trip.

But my orginal question was about the relationship between a shamam or a priest and the un-initiated.

It seems to me that with the shaman, it is a more personal, one on one relationship.
Whereas with the preist it a public affair.

I think I got that out of your history?

[CymnMaync]

I thought that if I taught you how to make a clock, you'd never be without one again and have to ask me the time. Not that I mind you asking ...

But I found the question limiting. There's so much more to the difference between a shaman and priest than whether he is public or private. Both can be public and private (think of the confessional booth).

However, if you are confronted with both and have to make a choice between the two, here's a tip.

The shaman will empower you, while the priest will disempower you.

That was my main point and I hoped that by showing you the context, you would see that.

[fount_pirat]

Ishtar,
Your CLOCK.
I will find a link that show this triangle detailing the missing part of electrogravitics, electromagnetism is on the other slope.I consider that it is the STUFF that makes and binds everything together.
we have a lady vicar here now, and She almost runs away from Me as I keep asking her "wheres the ghost gone"
they have stopped reffering to the ghost, it's the spirit now.
She says it is in all of us, i told her it is in all of creation, She hasn't a clue about dowsing or the history of the churchs she services, it's amazing how easily any sort of adjenda can be so easily written into these religions?
http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/Cetinbal ... ropsys.htm
kevin

[Enjoymmsq]

cropredy ... I know. I know. I know.

You're speaking to someone who used to be cloistered away with a closed order of Benedictine nuns.

I used that time to read the history of the Roman Catholic Church, which I found in their dusty old library, and it was surprisingly honest.

Have you shown that link to Digit?

[Sensbachtal]

Ishtar,
I believe I did post that link elsewhere for digit.
When asked how She had become pregnant, the nun would only keep saying "benidictus"
Kevin
Showing my council house upbringing.

[fudelholf]

Yes!

I found the link in Now, Voyager and it seems that it didn't pass the Digit test. I'm afraid there's no much point in me trying to strain my poor grey matter around one of these papers if Digit or Jonny throw it out.