[Baromaro]

thank you for replying. i must say that i am surprised that i've never thought of it as a win-win situation. your sig says it all. without losing winning wouldn't be as gratifying. i guess everything is created in contrast in that same way. i am going to try to look at my flaws as an opportunity to excel, i guess that's why we fall, right.

fulcanelli, i know what you're saying; but without competition, that win-win situation wouldn't be as pleasant. it also serves as a catalyst. you can a positive and negative from anything. besides, i dont think i can play a game where i cant dunk on anyone

in a way, competitive games represent what it is to be born here; you grow up thinking it's a race, but you realize you're just doing it for the love of the game.

basketball field???

[SteantyjetMaw]

makaveli, you sound a lot like an old warrior soul - kinda like me. the ancient code of the warrior is to take your fears and transmute them into courage and strength. it works. it can give an incredible "high." that makes it hard to quit. hi - i'm paul, and i'm a warrior soul. it's been thirty days since -- oh, what the heck -- i'm not sure i've even picked up my white chip yet, to be honest.

anyhow, at the core of the warrior soul seems to be a seed idea that if you don't win, then you deserve to die. for a warrior that works, see? because quite often if a warrior loses, then he *does* die. training for warriors means building in a level of shame that warriors find worse than death. if you read old literature, for instance homer's iliad (hope that title's ok, since it's a classic from 3,000 years ago!) we read about guys like achilles wanting to die an honorable death. deep down inside, he feels his warrior's truth -- dishonor is worse than death. wikipedia puts it this way:

"in many societies in which a specialized warrior class exists, specific codes of conduct (ethical codes) are instituted in order to ensure that the warrior class is not dangerous to the rest of society. warrior codes often have common features and usually value honour in the forms of faith, loyalty and courage. examples include the medieval knights' code of chivalry, the kshatriya code of dharma in india or japan's samurai class which uses a warrior code known as bushido (the way of the warrior) and xiá in china. see also noblesse oblige [...] warriors' honor is dependent on following the code. common virtues in warrior code are mercy, courage and loyalty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/warrior

now to be honest with the here & now, i also have to say that present-day society is enough to teach people to be competitive, for reasons that other posters in this thread have done a good job of articulating. it's not necessary to be an old warrior soul to be a mindless competitor - it just helps. at this time, i have a deep inner feeling of wanting to find old warrior souls, as many as i can, and say "hey guys, it's ok - time to lay down all our weapons. our old war is over, and our new one is just beginning."

now about that new "war." it is an inner war. we have no external foe. our real foe now is our self, our own souls, our own warrior traits. i seem to be discovering that it takes all the courage, self-discipline, and all the other old warrior traits i can muster just to live peacefully and let things be.

in fact, it's the hardest thing i ever tried to do. i could quite happily charge ten thousand armed spearman, die a thousand deaths, and it would be a piece of cake to me compared to putting down weapons and loving the world around me, just as it is. war? battle? competition? i aint' even seen any of them, not til i started trying to live peacefully.

i'll put it this way - my latest teacher is my most recent animal totem - the rabbit. lol can you imagine?? i feel in my soul that i have been at thermopylae, troy, nearly every ancient battle that ever took place for the holy land, and nearly every war, battle, and skirmish that took place in britain. and yet, my most demanding teacher ever is a little furry baby bunny rabbit.

in fact, one of the things about my fellow travelers here in divine cosmos is my clear intuitive sense that they are peacemakers. i respect them. they are adults, and i am an infant, in the skills of peace.

hi. i'm paul, and i'm a warrior. anybody know where i can pick up a white chip?

[V8V8V8]

thanks for posting makaveli, i can definitely relate to what you're saying. there have already been some great posts in reply but i thought i would add my bit.

i am dealing with the same issue in my life at the moment. i have always been very competitive, whether that be in a sporting sense or at school. i have always worried far too much about what others think of me. as a young kid i was not very athletic at all- i was small, slow and my coordination wasn't particularly good and my lack of aggression put me at a disadvantage in contact sports like football (soccer). i loved sport though and admired the talented athletes i saw plying their trade on the tv and i longed to match their abilities myself. as a kid it frustrated and perhaps angered me that i had little athletic ability. despite the fact that i did better academically than most of my peers i felt that being good at sport was the way to achieve admiration and gain the respect of other people.

i then went to an all-boys secondary school when i was 11 and i was very short for my age- i was so tiny that people said my backpack was bigger than me and the older kids would regularly point at me and make remarks about my height. as i grew i felt a constant need to prove to people that i was no shrinking violet and that i was more than just a geeky academic. my athletic ability improved dramatically through my teens and i became a lot faster and my skills at several different sports improved. the desire to prove people wrong was so strong and i developed an almost insatiable desire for victory, whether through playing sport or supporting professional teams. in my local area there were two main professional football teams- manchester united and manchester city. they have always played each other twice a season and every time my team, manchester united won i saw it as a personal victory over the other kids at school who supported manchester city. looking back this was certainly not a healthy way to be thinking, but unfortunately i am still dealing with this to some degree.

you just need to think about what you actually get out of winning. when you win a competition or tournament, what does that trophy actually mean? personally i know that when one of the professional teams i support win a competition, i get about 2 minutes of pleasure out of seeing them celebrate, then i start thinking about them winning it again the next year. i think david mentioned this in one of his radio interviews, using the example of kobe bryant after winning the mvp award who could not be happy with the achievement as he was already thinking about winning again.

i like fulcanelli's idea about playing beautifully rather than just for victory. that's one thing i've always loved about soccer in particular, it can be played in so many different ways and you remember beautiful passages of play and wonderful goals for many years after. it's funny how you remember these little things more than the moments of victory. players often celebrate individual goals more than they celebrate winning the game. deep down this is what all sports fans love. yes they get a kick out of winning but it's only temporary. i know that when i watch i am hoping to see something special, something memorable. i enjoy seeing the creator reflected in the players on the field/court.

i don't see an obsession with winning as being helpful if you are on the positive path. if you win you get a very short-lived sense of joy whereas defeat can cause depression and affect your mood for some time. i see young kids being pressured by their parents to win a soccer game and then lambasted if they lose. i recently completed a coaching course and discovered that a large percentage of the kids who quit the game at a young age quit because of parental pressure. the pressure for victory and the fear of losing takes away the joy of playing the game- the very reason they started playing in the first place.

[Izzy]

let me put this very bluntly and remember that i am not trying to imply anything personal here. competition is one of the most fragmenting traits in our culture it create 99,9% losers. my assessment of personality traits as a psychotherapist over 19 years is that the notion that ,"you just have to win, no matter what", is exactly the trait i expect to uncover in the psychopathic, or sociopathic personality.

the need to win is a value in your mental map. that value is a consequence of your mental identity and/or perception of reason for living. all of these constructs are a consequence of your perception about what consciousness is all about. that being said, it could also be influenced by your testosterone levels.

to put it simply, the more you feel that you are connected to all things, the less competition you will need.

once upon a time there was this huge mound of sand in the desert. the mound was proud and very happy to be the biggest - and of course the best mound of sand around. that was before the storm that blew that great mound of sand almost to kingdom come. weeping softly in the aftermath of the disaster the now terribly reduced mound of sand could hear laughter and giggling in the near distance. curious about how such emotions could be present in such a time of disaster the "used to be big" mound asked, "how can you manage to have good feelings at a time like this"?

off in the distance an even smaller mound of sand quipped, "i am the desert"!

[zlopikanikanzax]

hey guys,

interesting posts.

i am obviously no 'warrior soul', but from what you said here, i get the meaning. thanks for the explanation.

i'd agree with the idea that the major challenge for warriors may be to lay down their weapons in times to come.

i don't this know for sure (i'm not jesus or something ), but from what i have heard at many places (ascension, 4d/5d, oneness etc.) it seems quite plausible that 'fighting' is not the way to get there.

[SteantyjetMaw]

my assessment of personality traits as a psychotherapist over 19 years is that the notion that ,"you just have to win, no matter what", is exactly the trait i expect to uncover in the psychopathic, or sociopathic personality.

that's interesting, mike. i tend to see dominance as being the driving force behind the psychopath's behavior. however i was interested to see some recent research that failed to show dominance as a factor, and i have been curious about it ever since. the fellow who did that research is a social psychologist & a colleague of robert hare (you might be familiar with him as the fellow who developed the "hare's pcl" test for psychopathy).

in my view, neither competitiveness nor dominance would be at the core of a psychopathic personality, since i follow yochelson & samenow's idea that the driving force behind psychopathy is attempts to escape from a profound deficit of a sense of self, a state of mind they call "zero state." i don't mean to nitpick definitions here, because there are so many different conceptual frameworks of psychopathy, each using its own different terminology, that it would be easy to get linguistically lost. it's just that since i decided that psychopathy is essentially a habit of behavioral dominance, you are the first person i've heard express a similar idea.

metamike writes:
"to put it simply, the more you feel that you are connected to all things, the less competition you will need."

very good point, mike. it's hard to disagree with that.

could i ask for an opinion by the mods on this topic? metamike and i are taking this topic to clinical discussion. it certainly has relevance to discussions of spirituality. at the same time, i don't want to get the forum bogged down in technical definitions. can we proceed on this topic for a ways if we agree to make an effort to keep it at a level of public discourse & try to avoid in-house jargon? thanks!

paul

[mod note: yeah, let's keep hare, yochelson & samenow out of it! seriously - keeping in mind it's not a private conversation, and the topic is competition - layman's terms of engagement, gentlemen, please...]

[SteantyjetMaw]

mod note: yeah, let's keep hare, yochelson & samenow out of it! seriously - keeping in mind it's not a private conversation, and the topic is competition - layman's terms of engagement, gentlemen, please...

thanks, mods. that sounds like a good idea. could we start with a layman's definition of "psychopath," so we'll all have a basic idea of what we're talking about? i think this excerpt from wikipedia is a pretty good summary:

aggressive narcissism
glibness/superficial charm
grandiose sense of self-worth
pathological lying
cunning/manipulative
lack of remorse or guilt
shallow
callous/lack of empathy
failure to accept responsibility for own actions
socially deviant lifestyle
need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
parasitic lifestyle
poor behavioral control
promiscuous sexual behavior
lack of realistic, long-term goals
impulsivity
irresponsibility
juvenile delinquency
early behavior problems
revocation of conditional release
many short-term marital relationships
criminal versatility

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/psychopath

these are the guys you don't want your sister (or your widowed mother) to date. the important thing is that those traits don't just describe criminals locked up behind bars, but they also describe "successful" people like top executives & powerful politicians who lack regard for basic honesty, & are good at hiding behind appearances.

basically what metamike is saying (if i understand him right) is that those traits show up in people who seem normal on the surface, but, combined all together, they have a destructive effect on a whole society. i have seen wide agreement that this idea is true in the usa. the positive spin we put on "competitiveness" in our culture as being good for business has eventually created a situation where we admire greed & willingness to engage in outright criminality - provided the person is smart enough not to get caught. i've seen trends where this attitude is catching on in other parts of the world, such as the uk. this is the first i've heard about it being widespread in scandinavia. i generally see scandinavia as a culture being more healthy than the usa, based on a number of factors.

i think that "healthy competition" can be a good thing, *if* it helps you bring out your best effort but doesn't ruin your day when you lose. my wife & i enjoy competing at board games like scrabble & monopoly, for example, but we have fun no matter who wins or loses. i suspect we are an exception, at least in the usa.

basically, i am really happy to see people taking a look at themselves & asking whether their own competitiveness is a good thing or not. that sets a good example, and i'd like to see a lot of other people follow it.

thanks, everyone, for contributing to this thread.

paul

[Amirmsheesk]

hello "gentlemen and mods"

i'm the layman here, having studied psychopathy from the perspective of close relationships of one was a brainwashing "meditationguru" and the other my "on and off-reltaionship" with a man with borderline dr jekyll/mr hyde-disorder on occasion turning into psychopathy.

from the "victimperspective" i've come to understand those men were hughe magnifying glasses of my own psyche. i also combined this "black hole" where my soul should have been, with a strong co-dependency pattern, trying to control the demons "outside" myself instead of confronting those on my inside.

a total breakdown finally put me on a healthier spiritual path and i'm happy to meet pple here on the forum that have both the psychological and spiritual perspective like deerclan and metamike.

transiten on the first day of spring, wild geese flying across the sky

[Fsfkkkjz]

makiavelli, you're describing having connected your personal value to game victory. which causes the negative feelings if you lose, and the euphoria when you win. basically every time you win or lose you reinforce these emotions by having them. but the most important connection for you is "connecting personal value to success" (basically you believe in "being the best")

personal value isn't in victory. you probably know that even if you do hold yourself to those standards. winning isn't about being the best. winning is being the winner. losing is being the loser. as others have said, both are essential roles.i can only suggest to keep giving it your best, there is nothing wrong with competition and striving to be the best you can be. and then tie personal value to just being there.

disconnect awesomeness from preconditions. you're awesome because thats what you are. because the sun shines, because flowers grow and rivers flow. no reason and all reasons. you just are, if you don't realize this then you're selling yourself short.

it might help to realize the cause of the initial connection. that probably has to do with the intense desire to be accepted and loved by parents who themselves had a competitive edge. but as i said, it's reinforced by you in every game you play. be it basketball or anything else you perceive as competitive. (losing makes you feel bad = evidence to avoid it. winning makes you feel good = evidence to strive for it) if you can neutralize those reinforcers you break the cycle.

on the court i would suggest to keep going for it all. that's sports we're supposed to be competitive. but disconnect from the outcome. don't play to win, play to play. and outside the court if you experience the competitive pull, see if you can give away some of the victories. many small competitions mean nothing. and taking the stance to give victory to whoever wants it in those trivial matters is good for the heart, and you'll discover that people recognize what you do and give you credit for it.

[Qeiafib]

hey yall, this is my first post here and it goes somethin like dis:
competition drives me to excel at the many facets of life, but it feels as though it is enslaving me in a way. for example, i love playing basketball and improving at every instance i get; and every time i'm in a game, i have to win. i can't lose, thinking about losing evokes a certain fear, like of doom. when i do lose, i engorge myself in self-pity and my day is practically lost in negativity. i am always trying to be the best and failure doesn't seem like an option. i understand that it's my ego, but i can't go any further than that. so my question is simple: how do i free myself from this madness?

thank you "who is the happiest of men? he who values the merits of others, and in their pleasure takes joy, even as though 'twere his own" ~ goethe

i'm not a competitive person by nature - i do however measure my abilities against those of others, which is perhaps less of a divisive instinct.

i'm an artist and musician among other things, and will look closely at others to study their techniques and patterns, and be influenced thusly. i will hold my present abilities up to those of others to see where i may learn something. i guess you could call this inspiration!

i'm not one to go green with envy if someone leaves me in the dust with their talent. others i have known do, though, and it is through some sense of inner lacking that they do so. for me, moving forward doesn't mean someone else falling back.

going back to primaeval days of survival of the fittest and territorialism - here competition as witnessed in the animal kingdom is a necessity, upon which is predicated survival itself. it's part of the natural order; all good.

moving forward into the human experience - humans bridge the gap between the 2d animal experience and the 4d experience of love and social-memory-complex building. i don't know a pinch about what life may be like in 4d, but i expect peaceful co-existence and learning practical application of the reality of the consciousness of oneness to figure largely.

so 2d involves millions of years of evolution for an entity, as does 4d. sandwiched in between is an exceedingly short yet incredibly intense ordeal by fire called the human experience. in a roughly 75,000 year (or so) period we move from the pack mentality of warring to survive, to moving through the lessons of love to a point where we can second the voice of mr. goethe, as put forth above.

so we take a look at organized sports for example. see how deeply this resonates within so many cultures of the world? when man was new, he took his pleasure with the belonging to the tribal pack - his newly individuated awareness of self still in many ways secondary to the pack, flock, or herd mentality of his ancient 2d heritage. he existed yet less as an individual and more of an integral part of his community. in matters of war, he fought for the community. largely, the celebration of a victorious contest was the celebration of survival itself.

considering the fact that these social contests have been a part of our lives for so long, and have a primaeval association with issues of survival and quality of life, it's little wonder that so many still resonate so in matters re-vivified by pro sports - which always seem to pit players in opposition, whether individually or in groups. have a look at the pan shots of the stands at the superbowl, or a man u soccer game. can't you just see the tribalism coming out? this is a manifestation of that which has virtually always been a part of our common heritage up 'til now - competition of one's social group with other social groups. while it's not survival within the context of the football game, it speaks to our (not so) latent instincts of pack survival.

i feel competition may be seen as a normal and expected function of being human. it can be as benign as 'the mutual joy' of the thrust and parry! this doesn't mean that eventually there doesn't come the stage wherein the instinctual isn't supplanted by greater awareness. as the great final epiphany of the 2d creature is it's awakening awareness of it's individuality , so the final great epiphany of the 3d creature is it's growing awareness of each other individuated entity as one's own self, undergoing another range of experiencing, and is as worthy of love as one's own self.

concepts of opposition and competition, self worth and relative values of individuals and conditions are then subject to a long and laborious process of winkling out of one's ego, as they are no longer seen to be useful supporting members of one's mental edifice - and are mutually exclusive with true, non relativity-based love.

indeed, inasfar as your heart leaps in consonance with the heart of another who experiences the joy of their being, you have achieved a glimpse of your true self! when one determines to transcend their own internal contradiction between true love and one's own complex mental edifice of relative value... well then, polarization and harvestability are in the offing! mark

[Amirmsheesk]

in my next post i will adress the fear of competition and succes. i also think this is more common among women, turning their frustration and agression inwards leading to depression, while men generally are more outgoing and project their fears and agressions outwards since that's encouraged in the patriarchal society.

transiten

[johnteriz]

in my next post i will adress the fear of competition and succes. i also think this is more common among women, turning their frustration and agression inwards leading to depression, while men generally are more outgoing and project their fears and agressions outwards since that's encouraged in the patriarchal society.

transiten

yes, good direction to post this, becuase it's true that everything has two sides. i myself am not competitive, but i do face alot of fears in failure often when something "new" comes around. often thinking i cant....then placing that in my thoughts making it true. then once i try realizing that what dosn't kill you.....you know the end, and it's absolutely true. for both sides

i cant wait to read you thoughts on this as well

[Baromaro]

lol psychopathic...
competition serves as a catalyst and as a spark in our evolutionary progress, if everyone felt one with each other, **** wouldn't get done. unification spreads love, but separation and individualism promotes creation. it is a fundamental aspect of life, even though it isn't as much today. the problem is just tagging losing to your personal value, which i will learn to overcome.
it's a funny thing too, it's not really the win that gets me goin, it's the tre, the finesse layup, the tomahawk dunk; the creative aspect of it is what really excites me.
liam, your story seems shockingly similar to mine; i wasn't very athletic and it seemed as if all i could do was study. i always loved sports and the competitive aspect of sports. growing up i felt like i had to prove something, to myself if anything. suddenly, i became very athletic in high school and the more i visualized the court and the ball to be a part of me, the better i became. it's funny how when you "become the ball" things become that much easier. hey, i didn't know david talked about kobe, is he a laker fan now that he's in l.a.?

btw, that quote by goethe hits the spot

[SteantyjetMaw]

lol psychopathic...

i don't think anybody intended to imply you as being "psychopathic," makaveli. i know i certainly didn't -- although with a nickname like "makaveli" you must realize what a big temptation you toss out at people like me ......

[Baromaro]

i was implying that bout competitiveness as a trait, dont b jumpin 2 2 many conclusions mr warrior, but u r right, the most successful people have it so i dont think it correlates

[SteantyjetMaw]

i was implying that bout competitiveness as a trait, dont b jumpin 2 2 many conclusions mr warrior, but u r right, the most successful people have it so i dont think it correlates

hey mak -- i like your spirited answer. if you ever change your mind about being a warrior spirit, i invite you to come & fight on my side any time.

i started to say i like your spunk, but then i realized it might confuse our friends from england. american "spunk" is nothing more than good old english "fighting spirit." although, given the town mascot or your rugby team in the little town of dorking, a few miles east of london ......

mischievously,
deerclan

[V8V8V8]

liam, your story seems shockingly similar to mine; i wasn't very athletic and it seemed as if all i could do was study. i always loved sports and the competitive aspect of sports. growing up i felt like i had to prove something, to myself if anything. suddenly, i became very athletic in high school and the more i visualized the court and the ball to be a part of me, the better i became. it's funny how when you "become the ball" things become that much easier. hey, i didn't know david talked about kobe, is he a laker fan now that he's in l.a.?

that's fascinating that your story is so similar to mine. it seems that our mentalities change as we get older, you actually allow yourself to "become the ball" as you say. david did talk about kobe but i'm not sure that means he is a laker fan! i think he was talking about home field advantage at the time and about the 'alpha male', in this case sportsmen receiving energy from the home fans. he used kobe bryant as an example of someone who benefitted from this but also mentioned how he didn't know how to react to winning the mvp award- all he could come up with was that he would try and win it again next year.

[Baromaro]

if he paid that much attention to him, i hope he is; maybe we can win a championship with david's mental abilities. c'mon david, visualize the win!
i don't think kobe would be kobe without his competitive nature, maybe just a mediocre player.