[Longwow]

hi, guys

every time the subject of free will comes up my buttons get automatically pushed and i get twisted all out of shape. yeah. no kidding. to whit i just went and looked in the bathroom mirror -- it is true! ghastly reflection! (kidding...its always ghastly)

anyway, the subject has come up several times on the forum, and for those interested please do a site search under "free will" threads.

the title of this post hints at the phenomena of one having two wills...and as can be imagined they are often in conflict with each other despite the fact that they are like siamese twins in their coexistence.

our "ego" consciousness is where our sense of free will seems to abide. it must be understood, however, that such will is not actually free since it is an epiphenomenon stemming from an underlying cause. (think of a tail wagging a dog)

okay, but it seems free, as one poster pointed out. it seems to have the ability to arbitrarily will what it wills...tho it is often weak-willed and can't live up to its intentions...in fact the will oft times changes its mind in mid-stream ...which is not necessarily a measure of freedom but rather that of fickle caprice.

example: i "will" myself to give up smoking/drinking right now!..... next day: well, maybe i should taper off.

i picked up some insights from dr. bruce lipton via his work, the biology of belief according to lipton's revolutionary findings (that back up the loo) a human is composed of some 50 trillion cells working in a surprisingly phenomenal condition of aware harmony -- instead of the neo-darwinian idea of the "survival of the fittest" obtaining we have instead a condition that might be best described as the "survival of the most cooperative".

dna is not the rigid potential limiter and instructor of the organism. the cells are instead aware and receptive to input from the environment, both physical and mental, with the cells outer membrane being their brain receptor. the cells are able to respond and adapt to ambient condition in a manner above and beyond the original genetic blueprint outline. (lipton, in effect, is reviving the long-discredited spirit of lamarckian evolution -- proposed some 50 years before darwin came along to trash it)

so, we have this amalgamation of symbioses called a body... fashioned along the way by whatever impinges on it. the software that runs this conglomeration via sending out multi-millions of instructions per minute is loosely called the unconscious mind; it has been programmed by reacting to the conditioning impact of experience, and it keeps plugging along, well set in its ways and course by sheer inertia.

note: the sub-conscious is immeasurably more powerful, by thousands, than that ephemeral, will-of-thee-wisp we most closely associate with and think of as the "conscious mind/will". when the teeny-weeny conscious will confronts the status quo of the humungus subconscious will, and attempt to change its learned course, it simply gets trampled under foot.

lipton was long frustrated in that simple positive affirmations didn't work worth a darn to retrain the psyche. serendipitously he did find a technique that was spectacularly successful in reaching and retraining the sub-conscious mind. a key technique was developed by a psychologist named rob williams using his psych-k method employing kinesiology.

so, we have discovered our enemy and he turns out to be (part of) ourselves.

so, our free will is free --- to be really sneaky in trying to out-psych big brother down below -- when trying to make major changes in the direction of the flow of our conditioned life style. done correctly, relentless, deeply emotional prayer/affirmation is an option.

for those of you who have made it this far, sorry for being so tedious...apologies for leaving a lot of holes in the sketchy outline above.

love! bbb aka free will bill

"whether or not we have freewill, the universe behaves as if we have freewill, which is really all that matters."

[mikefertynnz]

let's try the beast's view, that of aleister crowley (whoa now! i hear them bells and whistle's going off! yeah, the dude was weird but this applies here):

"do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." "love is the law. love under will."

then there is that little dude yoda:

"try not. do or do not. there is no try."

get up and go look out your window right now.

regardless of whether you actually did or not, your actions were just now entirely yours. i can't make you get up and look out the window. i might suggest it, but you still have to do it.

if you knew you didn't have free-will, would you have to get up and go look out the window?!

to simply act with the will of love, do we need more than this now?

there is no knowing of free-will, for free-will is an action, not an idea.

and free-will, as an action, represents a force at work.

which comes around to the saying that "work is love in action."

i try to remember that every morning when the alarm goes off and i "have to" get up and go to work. boy howdy, don't i want to try some experiments in free-will then!!!

do as thou wilt.

[Qeiafib]

yeah, aleister crowley has in the past got my spidey sense tingling!

i have heard him quoted, "do what thou wilt." i balked at this, not having at that time heard the rejoinder, "love is the law. love under will."

free will seems like the capstone of a pyramid, being the primary law of experience. as the capstone needs the body of the pyramid to stand, so it seems free will stands with the supporting superstructure of love - applied to and augmenting free will and one's experiencing.

if love is the organizing principle of the coherent universe, the concept of free will seems that which allows the universe to focalize into points of awareness (individuated consciousness). perhaps an individual's experience is impossible without the combining of love and free will - and the development of wisdom, which intermediates between them. as one learns the lessons of free will linked with concern for others, the only possible eventual outcome may be the realization of the oneness of the entire coherent universe, with free will being the driving engine of the process - fueled by love and maintained by wisdom.

just a thought... mark

[mikefertynnz]

sweet stuff markm! thanx.

let's throw some hi-test in that engine!

love is superluminal!

[Kemapreedasse]

leo scone said: “if free-will implies total freedom, unlimited choice, then the answer is an obvious no - we do not have free will. total freedom likely only comes in source itself, and even then it seems that source is not merely compelled to create, but it is the ultimate "no-thing" as well. no free will there either. and there is no amount of will that would set one outside of the one, so there is some ultimate order, some ultimate pattern which all must oblige. no amount of will can free one from unity”

you could not have said it any better. i agree with you completely.
you are a very wise person

divine princess destini

[sharpyure]

hey guys,

i'd say that will is free only in the present, meaning that we can experience our will more freely in the now. investing in history whether it be past or future is when our will is then given a value stripping it's freedom. if that makes any sence. this whole illusion of time seems to correspond greatly with a doubt or fear of not having control over ones own will. there is something there that longs for deeper understanding. perhaps we can look at it as truely being free when it does not involve anything outside of ourselves, clear of any karmic or residual energetic repercussions. if it is purely expressed and given all the loving faith that it will not "cost" anyone anything, in my opinion, it is therefore "free". sylvain

[Longwow]

methinks i complicate things overly much... the will seems like such a simple thing... much on the order of, umm, well, love...which is a study in pure, directly apprehended simplicity:d

all that needs to be kept in mind is that the power of choice is not identical to the concept of free will. choice is an effect of will not the cause... we do make choices...the freedom of each example is arguable. but for sure things are set into motion by our willful actions.... we are often caught in webs of coercion that we are not fully aware of..we can be compelled by factors that do force our sphere of influence into directions not of our own making/choosing.

accidental foreign influences do force us to respond with some kind of counter activity. the sum total of impingement's gets so complicated that we can not be seemingly pre-programmed ahead of time to specific responses. in that sense we do demonstrate reactive free will when slam-dammed by life's deterministic bludgeons.

yeah, sumthin' like that.

the main concern with the tangled question of free will is whether or not the will has the power of will over itself and its corollaries. can one will himself to change his nature?.... to will himself to love another, no matter what? aye, there's the rub.... one thing to willfully to walk to the window...but to will oneself to go against one's very nature puts the concept to the test.

mark likens the will to be like the capstone on the great pyramid. yeah, i can see the validity of that view...

but i see the will in a different, more active, perspective. an virtual engine of exploration. you see, if wisdom is attained by the knowledge/experience gathered through the activity of diversity within unity, then will is the active component of diversity... we are told by the ra that we are virtual explorers given the task of uncovering and exploring all the infinite nooks and crannies to be found wherever in order to eventually unveil all potentialities encompassed within our divinecosmos.

hmm...i better quit ... i do sense that i'm fast losing my gentle reader's freewill indulgence!

help! pleeze! stop me before i write again!!

thanks! billybobbutterball, esq.

[mikefertynnz]

no pause please to your priceless prattle, bbbb!

"life's deterministic bludgeons" eh?! yeeoowww!

but then again, i resemble that remark!

[mirex]

earth is a love school in which basically we can choose to make the right choice, to act from love, or not and suffer pain.

even with this binnary choice, choosing the right kind of love is not straight forward and we many times take the wrong turn.

so, we have free will to choose whether we suffer or not. suffering is only caused by the lack of love to self or others.

love

this to me suggests that we only actually have partial free-will, as to choose other then love gives pain, in a way to always get you back to love. so, really you have to choose love eventually, (or perhaps be recycled energetically if you do not make it and become lightless), so ultimately we cannot choose to turn away from love.

but in a way, if that is the case, i think its kind of beautiful, you can never truly turn away from love as love is the nature of perfection .

you can try but you may end up losing your individuality and energy matrix, not as punishment , just by effect, but even then, the divine consciousness may be able to consciously decide to prevent that from happening and create new schools of learning just for the really dense, endlessly creating and filled with love.

blessings
babyblue x x x

[mirex]

by the way, angels do not fall.
all implications play out within their respective vibrational levels.
regards detlef

i have to say i've often pondered this question of "fallen angels" and found it doesnt resonate with me, never has, i just can't understand the notion.
how can something as pure as an angel ever fall? they live a life of the utmost service and are egoless, or thats how it feels to me (what do i know mind you! i'm just totally in love with angels)
i just love all the angels and i see fallen angels more as alien/"demi god" beings who may have interferred with us in the past, in the fantasy movie inside my minds eye!
i have even been pondering the idea of lucifer being a master genetisist of the annunaki who programmed us with the kundalini and pineal glands so we may gain enlightenment, going against the will of his superiors who wanted us as dumb slaves (not owning the ability to gain enlightenment for ourselves). i thought it would make a fantastic movie plot and vowed to right it down... keano reeves playing lucifer. ... heeheehee
i just love this stuff.
let the movie play on......i've got my popcorn ready and i'm very comfortable x

love x x x bb x x x be love

[mirex]

the the will in a different, more active, perspective. an virtual engine of exploration. you see, if wisdom is attained by the knowledge/experience gathered through the activity of diversity within unity, then will is the active component of diversity... we are told by the ra that we are virtual explorers given the task of uncovering and exploring all the infinite nooks and crannies to be found wherever in order to eventually unveil all potentialities encompassed within our divinecosmos.


thanks! billybobbutterball, esq.

love it billy bob, thanks for that eye opener ;-))

[BritneySpearsFun@@@]

the way i see it is that you have free will but you cant change the future. looking at it in a fractal form, there are much larger forces at work. we only have free will of which we have control over. what we cannot control, controls us. so we only have a certain amount of free will.

[MgpojuWy]

everyone gets everything they want no mistakes

[Longwow]

everyone gets everything they want no mistakes

yeah, but dog, can you tell me, what do you really, really want?? heck, i can never make up my mind. tangling my emotions up into a tight wad is an ongoing flow of seductive possibilities that come and go -- in and out of my focus-- novelties of intriguing experiences that i think i might really want --just keep flip-flopping from day to day -- options bouncing back and forth from one tantalizing mutually exclusive conundrum of internal/external circumstance/condition to another.

hmm. i'm reminded of an old german saying goes like this: he who tries to accomplish everything, accomplishes nothing.

so, i think that this point boils down in that the "want" aspect has got to be powered by an abiding intense desire, that is, in contrast to mere transient, casual wannabee desire stuff. ( which is a very good thing! ...considering some of the tantalizing trash that wanders by and grabs my momentary interest......however, on futher, future consideration i don't want that movie scenario in any of my future agendas!)

don't get me wrong, i'm all for freewill ... just on a short leash...

billiousbobbutterball ... succumbing to the 'want' of just pullin' your leg a bit..

[mikefertynnz]

another saying somebody posted at my work recently:

"everything comes to he who hustles while he waits."

while there may be no mistakes, i'm for sure going to hustle to increase the joy and love within my home, for my family, my friends, and...wait...that includes everyone already. you too, y'all!

here's some punctuation fun:

everyone gets everything. they want no mistakes.

and bbb, i'm just going to cut across all threads today and say thank you for all your wit and wisdom this day and all others. puts me a bit in mind of our blessed friend robert riedel. you too rock this world.

classified ad:

free! one will, unsure if it has been used or not.

there's yer free will.

pulling any legs not tied down!

[hereiamguy]

hi to all,

whenever crowley and free will are mentioned, i can't help but think of this poem:


onion peelings

"the universe is the practical joke of the general at the expense of the particular, quoth frater perdurabo, and laughed.

but those disciples nearest to him wept, seeing the universal sorrow.

those next to them laughed, seeing the universal joke.

below these certain disciples wept.

then certain laughed.

others next wept.

others next laughed.

next others wept.

next others laughed.

last came those that wept bacause they could not see the joke, and those that laughed lest they should be thought not to see the joke, and thought it safe to act like frater perdurabo.

but though frater perdurabo laughed openly, he also wept secretly; and in himself he neither laughed nor wept.

nor did he mean what he said."



from the book of lies

aleister crowley




what could this mean?

is free will just a cosmic joke? i, for one, don't 'get it'.

love to all

ds

[JetePlentuara]

i also get the feeling that some people might mistakenly think that the problems of life were chosen for them by someone else. like the teacher in the classroom gives a lesson. or like your parents make you do certain things becaus its "for your own good," but really, youre the one calling the shots.

even if your entire life and all its workings were pre-calculated down to the very last decision, they'd only be pre-calculated by you. because youre the one that plans your incarnations here.

wait....now that i think of it that is the correct answer in my opinion.

you select your "curriculum" for this place before youre even here. and you come here incarnated and make the decisions you wish to when presented with that curriculum chosen previously by you. the free will is there because you planned your trials and tribulations and whether you did or didnt plan what decisions you would make when those arose, you still had the power in your hands to make them. whether it was while you were incarnated or beforehand (beforehand? maybe everythings happening all at the same time and we just dont know it?!) you still made your choices.

so? your entire incarnation is planned and executed by you. no one else. you are the teacher and the student. id say thats free will. because theres no principal looking over your shoulder to mandate what you are to teach to yourself. and if there was one? youd look over your shoulder and catch a glimpse of your own face.

will you do this, or will you do that? either way, youre free to be as you please! in this form and in all forms

[mikefertynnz]

okay. so there is me. and then there is this higher me. and that higher me has some higher me. and the highest me is all that is. at that point all distinctions that might allow for the perturbation, or "distortion", being the term in line with the law of one, of an "other" of any sort are simply gone.

and then, somehow, a distinction/distortion occurs, and all of creation unfolds.

figure out how that happens, and you will uncover all the mysteries of will.

[rushiddink]

this has been a question on my mind recently and just popped up after seeing a similar question.

i have not been able to find the answer of absolutely knowing ...keword: absolutely knowing that we have free will. i have contemplated this for a huge amount of time and this is one of the most important questions i have ever even thought of.

hmm wellllll hope someone gets some in depth answers and don't just post what materials say and can't show you why. we need some good hard evidence here.

there will never be absolute proof of free will. just like there will never be absolute proof of the existence of god. philosphers have debated on free will for hundreds and arguably thousands of years.

i absolutely believe we have free will. while we may come into this plane with our incarnational blue print, we can change it at will. the future is not written in stone. the same thing with the timelines...there are probable futures. if this, then that, if you keep doing x, y, and z. but if you change x a little, then this might happen. but you could change all three and throw everyone for a loop!

we are all co-creators of our universe and our realities. to create, you are in control... in other words, you've exerted your will; your free will

[Quonuttott]

do humans have free will?

i think we have free will in as much as we can "see".

when you can not see, you are blind.

"and the truth shall set you free".


now, i don't know whether to believe in the concept of the "devil" as an actual being or not- all things are possible- but in any case, as an analogy, it is said that the devil is "the father of all lies" and wants to enslave us. if we are blind, and we cannot see, then we would be enslaved.

when people do things through ignorance or because they have forgotten who they truly are, then the "evil" is a result of this, not a part of their true nature. i feel very strongly and passionately that the world can heal in a powerful way once we learn to harness more love and a deeper understanding toward each other. forgiveness.