[CHyLmxDr]

Atheism has nothing to do with not believing in an after-life. Atheists reject the belief in the existence of deities. It comes from the Greek atheos which means 'without god'.
For me, not believing in 'god' in no way takes away from my knowledge that I exist outside of my physical body.

[patuvammnogoo]

Atheism has nothing to do with not believing in an after-life. Atheists reject the belief in the existence of deities. It comes from the Greek atheos which means 'without god'.
For me, not believing in 'god' in no way takes away from my knowledge that I exist outside of my physical body.

I agree. And many religious people don't believe in an afterlife anyway, when it comes down to it.

[tpJKhY8Z]

Atheism has nothing to do with not believing in an after-life. Atheists reject the belief in the existence of deities. It comes from the Greek atheos which means 'without god'.
For me, not believing in 'god' in no way takes away from my knowledge that I exist outside of my physical body.

Yes but majority of atheist do not believe in after life...that was my point...and not believing in after life may not be the wisest thing to do.
Also, it is not good for our well being in this world, you may disagree but this was my personal experience!
To me, it is very simple...believe in something positive and have a happy life...as simple as that...

[Serereids]

if ya don't believe in God ya don't get to play with God like power

which of course is whats needed to learn to control the world's system's

some areas have already been touched on and proven

good luck

love all

[flienianO]

Originally Posted by turbulenceadams Atheism has nothing to do with not believing in an after-life. Atheists reject the belief in the existence of deities. It comes from the Greek atheos which means 'without god'.
For me, not believing in 'god' in no way takes away from my knowledge that I exist outside of my physical body.

Yes but majority of atheist do not believe in after life...that was my point...and not believing in after life may not be the wisest thing to do. That's right, I can attest to it out of my own experience. Don't ask my why I committed this folly, maybe because I had quit church officially a short time before I registered there (in my country you are "born/baptised into" a religion) and was fed up with religionism in general and the power of the church in my country, so I joined an Atheist forum a few years ago (now I'm out of it again or only post there pretty sporadically once in half a year or so...).

Some (mostly strictly orthodox, some even fundamental) Christians were present there too and both parties were battling each other - no other groups in sight. I had thought otherwise before, because I never was an ant-spiritual person and hoped for more "free thinkers" there. But there are none!
Actually there were only extreme dogmatists fighing amongst each other. Consequently, after a while I - as the only esoteric/spriritual/metaphysical free-thinker - felt pretty alone there.

I can confirm that 99% of the Atheists there were/are strict dogmatists. Their belief system comes "ready-made" with labels and pre-packed - all included .
That means they were strictly of the materialist/scientism-ist/anti-esoteric&spiritual/skeptic/debunk-ist kind. And therefore, it's simple: there is NO SOUL, NO GOD(S), NO AFTERLIFE, NO OTHER DIMENSIONS OF EXISTENCE, NO OBEs -- It's all the brain/evolution, ... blahblahblah ... . Period. As easy as that. No discussion.

They were so rigidly trapped in a world view that allowed for no compromises. Of course, they would never call their world view a BELIEF system, since they have the "absolute (scientific) truth" behind them. They don't see that in their own way they created a belief and even a religion. But try it to make clear to them , as I did then in some futile attempts in posts, ... hopeless and frustrating.

„Most vocal non-believers and closed-minded skeptics are as wrapped up in their beliefs as those they ridicule or disagree with. The main difference is that they are more apt to deny that their beliefs are beliefs. (...) These folks are sure, that if they and their peer group have no direct experience of a larger reality, the larger reality must be the product of delusion. (The delusional always believe that they are non-delusional and that the non-delusional are delusional - such ist the nature of delusion.)“ - Thomas Campbell

[patuvammnogoo]

I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories.....

[BoattyGonm]

"I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories....."

the whaty-what-what?!


CFT, I love your story! Man, you are so brave! I could never teach a class! But that's really cool how openminded they all were.

[tpJKhY8Z]

I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories.....

I can answer that one because I have been there...
I am surrounded by atheists, and in fact there is only one religious friend I have, the rest are all atheists.
Many do not know anything about quantum physics. When I try to explain it, they look at me with empty eyes, like I am lying. When I show them some proof thru published articles, they seem to get interested but eventually many forgot about it after some time and completely lost interest. Can't blame them, its kinda hard to grasb quantum theories.

Very few know about QM. And they acknowledge the weirdness in quantum physics - I was one of them in the past. But eventually QM doesn't show any proof about soul and the continuity of consciousness after death, so they still consider after life as a wishful thinking. There was absoulately no way that I would accept after life if it wasn't for my OBE experience...

[Serereids]

I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories.....

what do you think/know about it
can ya tell us in as little paragraphs as possiable...as i hate reading
i know some things take ages to explain
it's sort of a foreign language to me at the moment
i'm heading that way soon, it's in my path
as everything has an cause and effect on possiably everything

good luck

love all

[patuvammnogoo]

Ok, I'll explain very simply and nonscientifically- the Copenhagen interpretation postulates that a quantum particle has two states- wave (also known as everywhere at once; no time) and particle- or, can be found in spacetime. According to the CI a quantum particle only becomes a particle (or, can be found in timespace) when measured or observed.
It has a few interpretations- that observation creates reality (not really, but something like this) or that observation shapes it. Very close but not exactly the same.
and the Bohmian implicate order says that the wave/particle duality inherent in any quantum particle is an indication that we only 'see' the wave/particle duality because we can only see part of the picture- that reality is something more that we haven't figured out how to detect, and that for example, entangled particles are actually views of the same thing, just as you and I are different views of the same thing. He goes on to describe it with the probe/tv analogy of a fishtank.
I didn't even include Everett's Many World Theories because it's too far out for skeptics to even entertain, much less consider seriously.

[Serereids]

interesting

i'll get their one day

good luck

love all

[Npbfamgt]

Greetings all

CFT
Thanx for sharing that story, I found it quite interesting. I am
a) surprised to hear that people in a Christian church were that open to the idea of OBE/AP (and even to the extent of deliberately trying to induce them!) and
b) doubly surprised to find that up to twenty percent of those people actually managed to make it OOB! Especially given that they were older persons who, as a rule, are more set in their ways, especially regarding the negative 'leanings' that mainstream Christianity has towards OBEs.

A quick aside about the CI of quantum physics. The particle location and the wavelength of a photon can Not be simultaneously measured because 1) If a particle is measured then the amount of extra light that it takes to find or locate the particle state excites the wavelength state to the point that the wavelength cannot be measured and
2) if the wavelength is measured then the amount of light is insufficient to simultaneously measure the location. If that sounds confusing it is because it IS confusing. This eventually prompted some scientist to theorize that the particle location and energy wavelength of a photon Can be measured simultaneously in a higher dimension. This, in turn, partially led to the theories of alternate or parallel universes.

Regards
Grey

[BoattyGonm]

I was thinking about taking a physics class at my local college because I am just thirstin' for knowledge, and I don't do very well with just reading about it in books.

Thank you for explaining CI. That is very interesting!

Something I have been pondering lately...do OOBE REALLY prove afterlife? Or does it just prove that your consciousness can leave your body? What if your consciousness just kind of evaporates after death? Or what if you just sort of melt back into the big ocean of superconsciousness (GOD, Source). ....Can't wait to find out though!

[tpJKhY8Z]

do OOBE REALLY prove afterlife? Or does it just prove that your consciousness can leave your body? What if your consciousness just kind of evaporates after death? Or what if you just sort of melt back into the big ocean of superconsciousness (GOD, Source). This is a great question. Can't wait what the experts i.e. CFTraveler and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ would say about this...
I think it does prove in my opinion. When I get out of my body I haven't travel any places, I just stay at my apartment and go back to my body. So I haven't met any spirits etc. But I am a newbie. Others seen all these spirits and they argue they are not part of our subconscious creation - so their existence prove after life- in my opinion.

Gee, you put some doubt in my mind tho...I gotta struggle with this question now...lol

[patuvammnogoo]

Something I have been pondering lately...do OOBE REALLY prove afterlife? Or does it just prove that your consciousness can leave your body? I'm no expert, just an experiencer who likes to write.... and I don't think OBEs prove anything in the scientific sense. If you do this long enough and learn to maneuver, you may change your mind, but chances are, the only way to change your mind is to have an experience that can be verified, and specific enough to convince you. That may or may not happen.

As to afterlife theories, if you are a materialist, Anthony Peake's ITLADian theories may be interesting to you. It may challenge your worldview, but that's what we like to do, right?

[tpJKhY8Z]

As to afterlife theories, if you are a materialist, Anthony Peake's ITLADian theories may be interesting to you. It may challenge your worldview, but that's what we like to do, right? Oh! I am so done with science when it comes to "mind". I read all different theories similiar to this, one particular example is Hameroff and Penrose (Objective reduction). These guys are onto something but none prove anything - all these theories are hard to be proven empirically.

Dalai Lama once said something interesting. He said: There are two types of science...
One- the science of matter. In matter science western civilizations re way advance compared to buddhists. He acknowledges the importance of material science tho.
Second - the science of mind- he says western civilizations are thousand years behind compared to buddhists. I buy that. OBE to me is a great proof of after life. But I acknowledge there are too many unknowns. For instance, one thing that bugs me is the "memory" problem. When I am out of my body, I can still remember a lot of things. But memory stored in brain and it is nothing more than chemical activity. So how come I still have memory when I am out. Either memory doesn't take place in brain or I am still connected to my physical brain when I am out and somehow there is an information transfer.

But if I have to choose between science and buddhism, I choose buddhism because of their deep experience with mind. I agree with Dalai Lama, they discover so many things and our modern science has a lot of catching up to do!

[lrtoinbert]

OBE to me is a great proof of after life. But I acknowledge there are too many unknowns. For instance, one thing that bugs me is the "memory" problem. When I am out of my body, I can still remember a lot of things. But memory stored in brain and it is nothing more than chemical activity. So how come I still have memory when I am out. Either memory doesn't take place in brain or I am still connected to my physical brain when I am out and somehow there is an information transfer.

or you're staying in the body all the time and not going anywhere during an OBE. That explains many of these complications...

[Teligacio]

I am curious, however, how do you see yourselves?

The voices in my head are saying I'm quite normal.

[flienianO]

memory doesn't take place in brain

yep!
That is my conclusion now. Everything that belongs to the mind (be it memory or thinking capacity or subconscious processing or whatever) is actually taking place "outside" (the latter in quotation marks since it is outside of 4D / spacetime, so 'outside' does not refer to "space" as we know it).

But if I have to choose between science and buddhism, I choose buddhism because of their deep experience with mind. I agree with Dalai Lama, they discover so many things and our modern science has a lot of catching up to do!

double-yep!
Btw, I just finished Fritjof Capras (now almost 'classic') "The Tao of Physics" that compares the ancient Eastern mystic teachings with modern science, esp. the new physics. Great work.
I also recently read Amit Goswami's "Physics of the Soul", he also tries to equate modern QM concepts with the tenets of the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead'. Pretty interesting although it is also pretty speculative, still. Anyway, recommendable in my view.

Together with Thomas Campbell, for me these three guys together form the spearhead of open-minded scientific theorists. (Of course, there are more!).

[tpJKhY8Z]

That is my conclusion now. Everything that belongs to the mind (be it memory or thinking capacity or subconscious processing or whatever) is actually taking place "outside" (the latter in quotation marks since it is outside of 4D / spacetime, so 'outside' does not refer to "space" as we know it). I recommend Bohm and holographic brain theories-if you haven't seen yet. Hologrpahic universe view is getting more support and evidence each day. So in my opnion, it makes a lot of sense if memories are stored outside the brain. There are a lot of cases that classical science fail to explain the experiences of some individuals thru "memory-stored-in-brain" view.