[lopaayd]

I have always struggled with OBEs. I've had them. Has anyone done validations before? And even if you did, can you guarantee that you were not in a lucid dream with telepathic effects in it? I keep having these debates with people at dreamviews.com but their skepticism is so harsh. The worst part is, it's full of pretty good arguments. I was such a strong believer before, but now I can't be sure. I can't be sure that this isn't all in our heads?

Do you ever feel like that? What if I'm a crazy person? What if I am one of those crazy people I used to laugh at that think they are demons and such? Is this all real? And if it is, how can we prove it to them? And more importantly how did you prove it to yourselves? I couldn't prove it to myself. I thought I could, but I can't now. Can you guys help me with this? OBEs scientifically don't make sense. So people who are closed-minded, they must be impossible. I just need some reassurance about this. I don't know who is right anymore.

-Rain

[Obebtetibre]

the people at dreamviews tell you that obes are lucid dreams with telepathy? this is an explanation just as possible as to say that your spirit is leaving the body. fact is that many people have validated their OBEs (including myself) and im quite sure that they are real.

i dont really know what happens but of course it is possible that it is 'just' telepathy. in fact i thought that many in dreamviews are hardcore sceptics, so i dont understand why the idea of telepathy is more 'comfortalbe' than the idea of OBE, since it is both equally scientifically proven (that means not proven).

still i think the conventional concept of OBE (not just telepathy) is more likely since some obe phenomeny like mind split are hard to explain with telepathy.

[lopaayd]

No they didn't come up with that theory, I did. The people at dreamviews ARE hardcore skeptics and they are all very very rude with making their points also. It's really annoying to be a member there who believes in new age things, but its such a good resource for lucid dreaming tips that I don't want to leave.

[ExelePlavisseu]

I guess it depends on what your worldview is. If they are under the belief (and this is a belief like any other) that the body contains you, and they believe that only the material exists (and it is a belief that is not founded in scientific reality, mind you) then the idea of OBE becomes to 'woo-woo' to them. That has no bearing on it's reality, it's just what they are comfortable believing in. Materialism is as much a religious belief as any other religious belief because it is not based on probable reality, and most hardcore skeptics refuse to believe that it is possible for someone to exist outside of the body, not because it is not logical or probable, but because it rocks the foundation of what they believe in, and that is not based on science, it's based on fear of the unknown.
There has been a lot of experimental data showing that particles that are miles away from each other react to stimuli simultaneously, which shows that the way that they are connected is not dependent on space or time- yet we know that they are connected somehow. This is not woo-woo magic, this is physics.
Now ask yourself, what is telepathy? The ability to receive stimulus away from where you are, not mediated by the senses. Telepathy usually happens when a person receives 'signals' from another person, usually not considered sensory. So how is that less woo-woo that projecting consciousness (considered a 'field' by organizations that study such things, like for example IONS).
IMO the only diff. between telepathy and OBE is that the percipient in telepathy receives the info without shifting their own focus of consciousness, or point of view, and the experiencer in OBE has the perception of being in the place that he/she is having the experience. So what is so differnet about them? Perception, IMO.
The person that is comfortable with one idea yet makes fun of the other is either:
Not very knowledgeable about what is involved in both experiences
Or, only concerned in what other people think about them, in their own social circle.
Why? Because the term telepathy sounds 'scientific', while the term 'OBE' sounds like some sort of magic act. Pretty superficial, don't you think?
So now, after spouting out my opinion about this, I have to ask:
OBEs scientifically don't make sense. According to who? And, if you describe those people as so close-minded, why do you feel you have to justify what you can do? That's what I really don't get.
Finally, I can give you some validation that I've had, and you can decide for yourself if they should have convinced me that OBEs are just what they seem to be.
And finally, why does anyone to be right? Why does someone have to win this argument? And if it happened to be a huge coincidence (my validations) what would be wrong with it being 'just in your head'?

[FrereeDoulley]

Well, just stay there for the lucid dreaming tips and ignore the rest of it. Opinions and beliefs are a dime a dozen. What was it that Napoleon Hill said? *goes to look it up* Ah, yes:

"Opinions are the cheapest commodities on earth."

So basically, you can safely ignore some of them.

[skydaypat]

I agree with ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. If I were you, I would go there for dreaming discussions and simply ignore OBE debates.

[Soresbox]

...I was such a strong believer before, but now I can't be sure. I can't be sure that this isn't all in our heads?

Do you ever feel like that? What if I'm a crazy person? What if I am one of those crazy people I used to laugh at that think they are demons and such?...

Something I tell people all the time is to never be ashamed of your ideas. Its the process of imagination and verification that expands our collective knowledge. You have to have courage to form new ideas and challenge them for any undertstading to come forth.

You aren't ashamed of believing Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny as a child are you? Child-like wonder and experimenation have somehow been contorted in todays society into something immature and not fitting for a person of a certain age. While geniuses are often attributed this property as if it were a magical gift. We all have in ourselves the passion to learn and to wonder. Its a shame that as most people get older that gets lost along the way.

Its good that you have kept yourself open minded enough to listen to criticism, but don't ever let that turn into self doubt or shame.

[FrereeDoulley]

Had a think about this.

I have a dragon figurine. Looks more like a puppy with wings and strange colouring and scales, but still. It's a dragon. The name of the sculpture is "Tailchaser" and the dragon has its own tail in its mouth and a somewhat perplexed look in its face.

I got it because at the time I felt like I all I did was chase my own tail. All I did was ask myself over and over and over if what I believed was right or true, if I was crazy, if I was making it up, if blah blah blah blah. I did this to myself for a very long time, constantly questioning my own perceptions and my own inner reality. Chasing my own tail.

Eventually, with the help of a wise person, I realised that the only experiences I can have in life are MY OWN. The only perspective I can have is MY OWN. The only life I have is MY OWN. Therefore, while it may (or may not) be of use to listen to other perspectives sometimes and consider them, the ultimate arbitrator of what is real to ME and in MY LIFE, is... wait for it.... ME!

I do get advice sometimes and ask people's opinions and so forth, and sometimes I take what they say on board and sometimes I just politely say nothing and ignore their input almost entirely (even opposing and irritating opinions can be a catalyst for my own growth, though).

But when push comes to shove, I have to decide for myself what is real to me, what is significant to me, and what is beneficial to me. I'm in charge of my own life, and the opinions of other people... well, they may mean well and be very convinced, but they're not me, they haven't had my life experiences, they haven't seen what I've seen or done what I've done or been where I've been, so how on earth could they possibly know what's real and what isn't in my own inner landscape?

Insanity interferes with your ability to function in the world, with your ability to get on with your life, to do the stuff you need to do (work, school, shopping, whatever). Believing stuff does NOT qualify as insanity. Religious and spiritual beliefs, belief in UFOs, belief in fairies, belief in OBEs, belief in magick, none of that means you're crazy. Holding unorthodox beliefs is not grounds for psychiatric intervention.

[XKAgustin]

"Rain, iF"]I have always struggled with OBEs. I've had them. Has anyone done validations before? And even if you did, can you guarantee that you were not in a lucid dream with telepathic effects in it? I keep having these debates with people at dreamviews.com but their skepticism is so harsh. The worst part is, it's full of pretty good arguments. I was such a strong believer before, but now I can't be sure. I can't be sure that this isn't all in our heads? Yes, Rainif, I've validated a few times in modest ways.

What's in our heads, Rainif? Do you really believe consciousness resides in your body and is therefore either:

a. Finite or
b. Trapped until released at death?

I know you know that true messages come out of the blue, and not just for you but for many many people. These happen when you're awake and when you're asleep. Isn't it conceivable then that consciousness is somewhere else outside your body or more than one place simultaneously? (Perhaps I should put simultaneously in inverted commas because consciousness exists outside of time.) Perhaps the feeling of going out of body is nothing more than a perceptual shift, as CF mentioned, and we experience it similarly to other people because of the way our perceptual tools (body and brain)are hardwired.

Think too of evidence for a collective unconscious. Are all our minds at some level linked? It's not inconceivable, not just for us but for other animals too.

"A lucid dream with telepathic effects?" What's the difference? Isn't this another mysterious event to be pretty much pigeon-holed and disregarded by science? Hmm, so, love is a biological reaction based on the need to survive and or procreate, right? It must be if Science says so. I'm sure that gives great comfort to the scientist whose just had her/his heart broken.

Have you ever heard of sophism (in the modern usage)? Perhaps those arguments aren't as good as they appear and because you're feeling outnumbered and don't have the answers just yet they're feeling much more convincing than they really are. Question the premises on which they're based.

Do you ever feel like that? What if I'm a crazy person? No, not for what I believe. In fact I associate "craziness" with all forms of unawareness.

What if I am one of those crazy people I used to laugh at that think they are demons and such? Is this all real? And if it is, how can we prove it to them? And more importantly how did you prove it to yourselves? I couldn't prove it to myself. I thought I could, but I can't now. Perhaps you were meant to have the experience so you learn not to laugh at people.

You might prove it to yourself yet.

Can you guys help me with this? OBEs scientifically don't make sense. So people who are closed-minded, they must be impossible. I just need some reassurance about this. I don't know who is right anymore. Don't be sad. Challenges like this lead to you clarifying your belief system or rejecting it. It's a natural progression. If you're feeling ganged up on, remember that there is much historical precedence that shows might is not right.

Both Moen and Leland have witnessed people in the Afterlife who would not respond to their continued existence because of their belief that this is all there is. They simply tried to pretend that their awareness was non-existent. If we're right and the strict sceptics are wrong, you won't be one of them.

If you haven't read Robert Monroe yet, I suggest you do so. He certainly verifies his experiences.

[lopaayd]

I validated twice. But now the idea of leaving one's body to me seems impossible....even though I've clearly done it. I guess I'm just massively confused. How can a consciousness exist outside of the body? It's not as much that I'm ashamed of it. If I do something intentionally, I am NEVER ashamed of it. Ever.

But I also completely despise mean people. Their only goal is to attack and harm people. They should run for president, cause they sure are good at randomly attacking people who didn't do anything to them. I always put up a fight on behalf of OBEs. But I am literally starting to doubt my own experiences now. Some of their arguments are legit. There is no scientific evidence to support any of this. How can consciousness exist outside of the body? I think they are afraid to know, like CF said. I think they are afraid of the unknown.

My only argument thus far has been "10 years ago lucid dreaming was 'impossible' too. 1000 years before that, the Earth was flat 'for sure'. And the sun revolved around the earth 'for sure'." I just hate all these people being extremely rude and hostile and malicious towards people who believe in OBEs and things beyond the realms of science. It's so unnecessary. I've never said "hey you're a stupid pendejo for not accepting what I say". Of course I would never do that. These people are just so crude. It's really bothering me and from their arguments, it seems like they might be right. Maybe an OBE is just a Wake Initiated Lucid Dream (WILD). How do we know it's not? They are induced in similar ways, the induction symptoms are the same, and the experience itself can be replicated in a lucid dream.

Idunno what I've been experiencing. It also doesn't help that there are a lot of phonies out there pretending to be psychics, even if they really appear to be. Most of the psychics that charge money are fakes. They are just very good at psychology. I don't have any particular gift in telepathy, but if I asked you to think of a number, or a name or anything really, I could get it on the first try. I think more and more skeptics are starting to realize that many people can do that. I'm just a little lost. I wish I could meet someone in the astral plane and they could tell me it really happened. I don't care about proving it to the skeptics as much as i care about proving it to myself.

[ExelePlavisseu]

I'm still not getting why you insist these things are true:

How can a consciousness exist outside of the body?

First define consciousness. You can't decide where it can exist only if you don't tell me what you think it is.

[Soresbox]

They are willing to believe in telepathy, but unwilling to suppose that OBE exists? Where is their evidence for telepathy? Why does it exclude OBE phenomenon? Have they worked out the empirical process whereby telephathy works?

It seems like they aren't thinking things through, or at worst, entrenched in dogma. The only thing you can do in both cases is be patient and resilient, and put forth the information. I admire your courage in presenting your unpopular ideas. And you never know, maybe some of thier more convincing points are valid, just think through them carefully, and trust your judgement because that all you got. Never let anyone tell you what it right or wrong, because that's your responsibility alone.

[lopaayd]

They are willing to believe in telepathy, but unwilling to suppose that OBE exists? Where is their evidence for telepathy? Why does it exclude OBE phenomenon? Have they worked out the empirical process whereby telephathy works?
NO. I never said they believe in telepathy. Idunno how that idea became up. I always said that it was my take on it, it has NOTHING to do with them.

CF consciousness as in the ability to think, remember, process things that are actually happening. The ability to have ideas and be conscious. The act of being aware. That is what I mean by consciousness. How do we do it? I thought I was sure of OBEs because I've had them. But are they really happening or are they in our minds? I don't really know anymore.

[ExelePlavisseu]

They are willing to believe in telepathy, but unwilling to suppose that OBE exists? Where is their evidence for telepathy? Why does it exclude OBE phenomenon? Have they worked out the empirical process whereby telephathy works?

NO. I never said they believe in telepathy. Idunno how that idea became up. I always said that it was my take on it, it has NOTHING to do with them.

CF consciousness as in the ability to think, remember, process things that are actually happening. The ability to have ideas and be conscious. The act of being aware. That is what I mean by consciousness. How do we do it? I thought I was sure of OBEs because I've had them. But are they really happening or are they in our minds? I don't really know anymore. But is consciousness something you do, or something you are?

[FrereeDoulley]

But are they really happening or are they in our minds?

You're making the erroneous assumption that if something is in your mind, it must be "not real".

[Soresbox]

Until someone brings some proof of where consciouness comes from, all theories are game.

The workings in the brain indicate a strong correlation to conscious activities, but wether it is cause or effect is not known. I'm not sure anyone knows much more than that. It is, however, the theory that has the most evidence, but thats not the same as proof.

Right now, as far as I know, noone has figured out how the brain creates consciousness, because I'm pretty sure it would be reverse engineered into sentient computer programs to handle just about anything you want it to do.

I don't see any of those around, or how to make one or I would write the code myself and make a trillion dollars by next week.

[FrereeDoulley]

Right now, as far as I know, noone has figured out how the brain creates consciousness, because I'm pretty sure it would be reverse engineered into sentient computer programs to handle just about anything you want it to do.

But then the machines would take over the world and threaten or enslave humanity in a not-too-distant dystopian future!

[XKAgustin]

If we're going to settle for the seat of consciousness in the body (and I don't) we can't even be sure it's exclusively a brain function.

[lopaayd]

You're making the erroneous assumption that if something is in your mind, it must be "not real". I see I'm not alone in my liking to Harry Potter


However, that quote isn't entirely related to what I was saying. And there are many things that that quote could mean. For example, if I hallucinate and see a clown trying to kill me, would you tell me that it is really happening?

I am not asking if OBEs are real. I'm asking if they are nothing more than subconsciously altered, wake-induced-lucid-dreams (WILDs). I really don't have any idea. But then again, maybe it doesn't matter. I would feel better knowing that they are what they are though.

[Soresbox]

I think in this case, you'd be better served by trying to determine what it means. If you saw clowns trying to kill you, whether a dream, a projection, or a hallucination, you'd still probably want to know why you saw these things. However the process by which it happened. Since you really don't have a way to find out how, maybe asking why will lead you to some understanding.