[Eugen80]

Hi All,

Does anyone know how to distinguish between the different subtle bodies. I mean how do I know whether I am in the true astral or the real-time or a higher body?

As a teen I started with meditation and after a few months I suddenly found myself in aware sleep paralysis (at that time I didn't know there existed a name for it or that it is a rather common experience). Well, I got the usual "dweller on the threshold" pestering but as I am an atheist I just considered it a strange kind of lucid dream (I know lucid dreams since childhood) and tended to attack the dweller-monster by telekinesis (it does not always work in ASP just as it does not always work in dreams, at least for me). In any case the dweller changed strategy and came to me as my mother telling me to "not sleep so much" instead. At that time I thought this a proove that I was dreaming (as I checked if my mother had really come into my room afterwards). But reading "Astral Dynamics" now I found out that the dweller can take shape of a relative, too, and now I am not sure if this had been the astral or real time zone after all, as after some tries I was able to separate a second body from the one on the bed.

This is still the only way I got into a projection. I relax until I find myself in a paralysis, then try to shake a second body free, I usually can separate an arm first, then torso until I finally stand up. There are no vibrations or noises or other unpleasant sensations I read about, though. Sometimes I have problems with sight, I just id everything by touch (or by simply knowing where everything is). But I am also not very stable - once I ended up in the room how it had been years ago. But the dweller still appears (usually as a relative).

Does anyone know if these experiences are real astral or real time zone or are they lucid dreams of astral travel?

[tigoCeree]

....how do I know whether I am in the true astral or the real-time or a higher body?

You can develop your clairvoyance and be able to see some of the subtle body layers as they develop by examining your hand in dim light with the third eye or by projecting far enough away from self to look back and observe the body in bi location . Nut I feel the easiest way is to examine your experience within each projection instead .

....Does anyone know if these experiences are real astral or real time zone or are they lucid dreams of astral travel?

This is often subject to the projector's perspective . Here is my own take which may not be common to other's experiences in projection ;

Astral : There is not as much constraint or control . There are psychodelic colours which may not be associated with any shape but seem to float there . In this view we are often missing "floors" , "walls" and "ceilings". So we seem to be underwater and viewing is limited only by sight and not by physical constraints . There are many floating objects. Other people seem to pop in or disappear like cheshire cats .There are no boundaries it is a dream like scape . Astral vision is often possible even before projection as you lie in bed in dim light and begin to trance you can see where you are about to go to as you leave . When you seek someone in the astral they may not look skin coloured and not be there at all but you may be seeing an auric reading of their energy manifesting as them or they may not be aware of themselves being with you and may be fast asleep at the time or even busy at work .

Lucid Dreaming seems to me to be the ability to manipulate what is viewed or felt within a dream or to manifest a mindscape within a dream as a sort of personal retreat or to set the stage and the environment while dreaming . In a lucid dream another you meet may only be an image and not have any connection to the live one you seek .

Real Time Zone is much easier to determine for me as I do this while I am consciously awake and choose where I am going and can confirm my experiences with the live person I visit remotely . This can easily be tested online with a partner . The sight there for me tends to be energy signatures footprints , silhouettes , hot and cold , moving or non moving , alive or just touched coded sight . My mind has to see interpret and move slowly or it all becomes blurred .

Spiritual realms have depth , heighth and width . Projectors that concurrenly visit with you can be seen but otherwise these places seem to be peopled with angels or spirit teachers . There are buildings and valleys mountains , lakes and clouds . Animals dont often appear unless they are totemic in nature and then these tend to be in lower astral totemic plane .
There are well known famous places that can be accessed by projectors ie
Akashic Library ,
Shamballah ,
Temples of Compassion ,
Blue Lodge
Great Pyramid
Wesak Valley spirit realm
Gates of Death
and the Abyss

Hope this helps you .

[Eugen80]

Aunt Clair,

thank you very much for your reply.

Personally I am most interested in the Real-time zone, cause, as you said, one can talk to others about these experiences.

I usually feel both bodies simultaniously for some time, a strange and a bit confusing sensation. I even mix them up sometimes, I remember I once was facing the window in my subtle body and tried to open up those eyes - but turned out to use the physical ones. So all my feeling and touch told me something different than my eyes looking at the ceiling instead, lol.

I do not recall colours floating or seeing people's aura so I guess it is not the astral.

I don't know the official definition but for me "lucid" dreams are those I know are dreams while dreaming. That does not always mean I can take control over the dream, though. And sometimes I seem to have an immense control over the dream while not aware that I am dreaming... I guess I gonna start a thread over at the lucid dream board about this ... ;

I read about the Library but I do not think I have visited any of those places.
I once dreamed about falling into an abyss but there was an archeological site down there. They were digging out some starship and I suddenly remembered (in the dream) that it was *my* starship and that I had forgotten it. I tried to reenter it but could not recall the right code, lol. I was very disappointed waking from this particular dream as I love science fiction.

[tigoCeree]

If you want to learn more about RTZ then find an online partner that is clairvoyant and develop your own clairvoyance and projection skills continually through meditation and projection . You can learn to link to a partner through their heart energy with their permission and project to them and see around them and they can learn to see around you . If you would like to try this with me just add me to msn messenger but it is best if you can find a partner you can practice with daily to make a link with .Perhaps someone else you know is also interested or why not post a new link and ask the members here ?

If you want to go to the Akashic Library there is a lot of info on the archives here with good descriptions and techniques . If you search the archives you will also find info on projecting to realms . All spiritual realms are open to us when we begin to develop clairvoyance and projection in meditative trance .
Here is one for you :
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewto ... highlight=

[Eugen80]

Hi Aunt Clair,

thank you again

I think I would like to try it with Bronwyn, if she agrees, but I fear I am not yet develloped enough. I don't have much time for trance and my meditation technique is reduced to mindfullness most of the time as it can be done whole day and night. So I guess I first have to devellop my OBE to become clairvoyance. I think Bronwyn is much more clairvoyant already.

Aunt Clair, I don't know how this clairvoyance works. Does one need a permission? Or is it a curtesy? In any case, you have my permission, if you are curious - just tell me what you find out. I promised myself to understand some things first before I jump into it head over heels again

I have - of course - still some questions. You wrote that one can see the energy of a person in the astral. What about the color? Does the color of the energy (aura?) depend on the person who is seen or on the person who sees?

I have also a question about the abyss. I once had a very strange dream (downward movement, sensing two beings hidden behind a curtain/wall, sensing a dialogue but without a language, sudden recognition that one of them was the devil (the other seemed a kind of minion, etc) , and I wonder if this was the Abyss. Can you give me a description? For me there are still many questions open about this dream - especially as some mediums I talked to said that a telephatic communication usually means a real spirit contact in contrast to normal dreaming.

[tigoCeree]

I don't know how this clairvoyance works. Does one need a permission?

I feel it is necessary morally to ask before we link or it becomes an uninvited intrusion . As for reading you , I cannot link to you thru text . I need to link in person or online via chat or a photo but that gives a stale look at a moment in time.Can you add me to msn messenger please ?

You wrote that one can see the energy of a person in the astral. What about the color? Does the color of the energy (aura?) depend on the person who is seen or on the person who sees? Both , I am limited as i feel most clairvoyants are the range of vibrations I can see .As we widen this to see higher vibrations ie archangels we reciprocally lower it to eventually see demons . This widening occurs naturally . But clairvoyance , which we all can develop if we choose , seems to be limited to our own vibration and a bit more . So I cannot see the colours too far ahead of my own . Spirit teachers called the Mahatma have a wider range then us and I can see them despite being far lower in vibration then them . The teachers lower their vibration , so to speak ,so we can see them . So the seer is constrained

Now the person being seen called the sitter also can affect the perception of their aura . We can learn to darken or hide ourselves . We can learn to hide the light of our face and our heart to be safer when negs are about too . We brighten our auras through powering up. We can learn to bring a specific hermetic element into our aura which will change its colour somewhat for a time . Franz Bardon teaches that in his Hermetic works .
But mostly the aura reflects us and we cannot change that mirror easily . If we are angry we must calm before the telltale reds will subside and if we are depressed it is difficult to hide the grays . The core vibration is more difficult to modulate as that is our essence . So if we are vibrating at a sapphire we cannot choose to raise our aura look to white no matter how hard we try . I think we may be able to lower it though , I am not sure on that yet .

I have also a question about the abyss. I once had a very strange dream (downward movement, sensing two beings hidden behind a curtain/wall, sensing a dialogue but without a language, sudden recognition that one of them was the devil (the other seemed a kind of minion, etc) , and I wonder if this was the Abyss. Can you give me a description? What did the devil look like to you ?

The abyss is vast . It is the grayness that surrounds the spirit realms of light . Crossing it , is accomplished through imbibing the subtle bodies with more light and air element and by eliminating more of the endless negativity and ego we all continue to carry . One method is to travel on the Kabbalah which is the internal tree of Life . The crossing the abyss there is to go across from the white right hand pillar of God to the left ebony hand pillar of the Goddess . It is to travel all the aeons or sepira of the right hand realms and then graduate to the left hand realms . To plunge into the abyss is done several times in the path of a mystic and yes that can involve meeting a demon within or a demon externally. It is called the black night of the soul and the long night of the soul etc . The demonic essence within has to be transmuted to light but it is not done one time only . It is a constant shedding process too .
For me there are still many questions open about this dream - especially as some mediums I talked to said that a telephatic communication usually means a real spirit contact in contrast to normal dreaming. I agree you are opening both your clairvoyance and your mediumship . Congratulations and Well Done .

[Eugen80]

I feel it is necessary morally to ask before we link or it becomes an uninvited intrusion .

Ah, lol, might become an astral fight by accident otherwise I take it

As for reading you , I cannot link to you thru text . I need to link in person or online via chat or a photo but that gives a stale look at a moment in time.Can you add me to msn messenger please ?

Okay, did that. How does it go on now?

Now the person being seen called the sitter also can affect the perception of their aura . We can learn to darken or hide ourselves . We can learn to hide the light of our face and our heart to be safer when negs are about too .

Now, that is fascinating! Can we even fool ourselves? I mean via the mind split, could we, say, when we see our double return to us see it darkened, hidden?

What did the devil look like to you ?

Erm, all light, lol. Seriously, makes no sense to anyone till now. I posted my dream on the beliefnet dream forum and several people said my dream makes no sense - not even methaphorically. But due to the telepatic communication it might have been an OBE anyway. Maybe you can make sense of it.

I dreamed I went downwards, it was no staircase or flying, just a downward movement. Then I came to a kind of wall or curtain and even though not
looking behind it I was aware that it was dark behind that curtain and
there were two shapes. I heard them talk (but it was without a language, more like a telepathic/emphatic communication) and was suddenly sure that one shape was the ultimate evil. "Oh, no", I thought, "this stupid fundamentalistic devil is real after all" and I was terrified. I heard "the minion" saying to the devil "all is ready, master" and the devil answered "it shall begin". I was so terrified I fled as fast as I could and started to wake up. In the waking up process I got lucid. When I know that I am in a dream I am absolutely sure that nothing can hurt me so I tried to turn around and face the devil. I wanted to know what part of me he was and what it means "it shall begin" and I wanted to give him a sound headbashing for scaring me like that in the first place. But when I turned around the curtain lifted and we faced each other. The darkness was gone, it (he) was all bright light and I knew somehow that he recognized me (that empathy thingy again) and that he was surprised to see me, as if I was where I was not supposed to be. I tried to hold on to this dream as strong as I could but I was already aware of my bed. Then the devil "said" slightly amused "you are too fast, too early". Then I fully woke up. I tried to get back to the dream but it didn't work.

Does not sound like "the Abyss" after all, right? But you are the first to point out the possiblity of the devil becoming light???

I might add that this was a very intense dream or whatever it was. Not the fractured crab I usually dream. Also the bi-location at the end (one in the bed and one still there facing the devil) made me wonder until I read about the mind-split. And now I wonder if for some reasons I got a download of the memory of one of my doubles (simultaniously to the dreaming/awakening one in the bed).

The "too fast/too early" was communicated without a language, too. The impression was that he considered me too fast. I don't know if in a temporal or speed sense so I included both possibilities in my description.

[gluckmeea]

Hi Freawaru,

Any time is a good time for me. I'm exactly 8 hours behind the posting time here. Just let me know when and I'll look for you. Don't be shy or feel not confident, cuz (as you know), I already can pick up on you. lol

[gluckmeea]

Hi again Freawaru,

You know what...I'm not feeling so confident about all of this, afterall. I don't understand half the things talked about around this forum. I need to get away. But, I feel there's people here....that have much to offer!

So......I do think your questions will get answered!

Praise God, there's bound to be someone!

[tigoCeree]

Ah, lol, might become an astral fight by accident otherwise I take it

What did the devil look like to you ?

Erm, all light, lol. Seriously, makes no sense to anyone till now. I posted my dream on the beliefnet dream forum and several people said my dream makes no sense - not even methaphorically. But due to the telepatic communication it might have been an OBE anyway. Maybe you can make sense of it.

I dreamed I went downwards, it was no staircase or flying, just a downward movement. Then I came to a kind of wall or curtain and even though not looking behind it I was aware that it was dark behind that curtain see now this is an archetype dream like the wizard of oz being seen by dorothy behind the curtain and discovering he was not who she thought he was afterall .
and there were two shapes. I heard them talk (but it was without a language, more like a telepathic/emphatic communication) and was suddenly sure that one shape was the ultimate evil. "Oh, no", I thought, "this stupid fundamentalistic devil is real after all" and I was terrified. I heard "the minion" saying to the devil "all is ready, master" and the devil answered "it shall begin". I was so terrified I fled as fast as I could and started to wake up. In my alchemy circle we all had similar dreams i feel they come to the aspirant sometime along each one's path . It is when we have to decide light or dark for some of us and for others when we have to decide and declare that we will love and serve God and humanity .

In the waking up process I got lucid. When I know that I am in a dream I am absolutely sure that nothing can hurt me so I tried to turn around and face the devil. I wanted to know what part of me he was and what it means "it shall begin" and I wanted to give him a sound headbashing for scaring me like that in the first place. That is also about confronting the demon within and realising that evil is not attractive to you and that it needs to be destroyed by you too .

But when I turned around the curtain lifted and we faced each other. The darkness was gone, it (he) was all bright light and I knew somehow that he recognized me (that empathy thingy again) and that he was surprised to see me, as if I was where I was not supposed to be. Perhaps this could mean that you yourself were also surprised at your change of heart from flight to confrontation .

I tried to hold on to this dream as strong as I could but I was already aware of my bed. Then the devil "said" slightly amused "you are too fast, too early". Then I fully woke up. I tried to get back to the dream but it didn't work. Perhaps this means that you must slow down and consider well to think more clearly but I feel this is all a classic dream and a sort of Freudian one but also a real spiritual visit to the Devil .

Does not sound like "the Abyss" after all, right? But you are the first to point out the possiblity of the devil becoming light??? not really did you read the Pistia Sophia that is 2000 years old now .
In it Christ says that Lucifer is him and Satan is Lucifer . That is confusing but I think he means that both of them are instruments of the rising light to bring humanity back to the path of righteousness . I believe demons are evil by definition and to be avoided and that they harm us horribly in the worse place in our soul more precious than our body . I just feel that the Jewish idea that Satan is the chief prosecutor obedient to God and part of the Lucifer plan is right and that the Post Christ offering that Satan is responsible for the darkness is wrong . WE are responsible for the darkness the evil in us and the demons around us . Not Satan he is the
Guardian of the lower plane called Hells by some and he is not a fallen angel but a strong archangel who is obedient to God . So now I will change the way I pray . I do not worship him he is not God . I just respect his love of God and the job he does . And I will continue to loath the demons inside of us and outside of us . They seek our ruin not Satan . He is the merciless punisher though and the deciever and the tempter but like all things he is made by God .
I might add that this was a very intense dream or whatever it was. Not the fractured crab I usually dream. Also the bi-location at the end (one in the bed and one still there facing the devil) made me wonder until I read about the mind-split. That is further proof that this was a spiritual journey a self examination and a confrontation of evil and a testing of your soul by you and by God to see who you are obedient to . I suggest to you that if you said you worshipped him he would punish you . If you said what will you give me for following you he would condemn you and punish you severely .

Congratulations on making the right choice on which side to be on
and for being brave in the face of evil .

[Eugen80]

no i just dont think it is nice to remote "spy" on another i think we should ask before we sweep someone out onto the dance floor.

And what if it happens without intention? Like in sleep and you think you are dreaming?

But i will contact you on msn when i am online

Okay, but I still don't know how msn works. Do I have to open a window? Or "click" on something? (yes, I am behind the moon? )

Hmmm , i never thought of that ,i don't know ,what do you think on this ??

Me??? Okay, being the non-expert in these things I don't see a reason why not. I have read about some OBE's where the person was spooked by his or her own double (only found out it was a double later). Also RB wrote he found out about the mind-split by being in a trance, thinking the projection had failed until his double returned. So I think when we sense something around, even trying to enter us, during a failed projection it could well by no neg but our own double returning. And if this double had decided to hide itself for some reasons ...

What do you think? Can't you just try it? Make an experiment?

That is also about confronting the demon within and realising that evil is not attractive to you and that it needs to be destroyed by you too .

No, not quite. I mean I had no intention to balefire him at all. Just a headbashing and an interrogation.

Perhaps this could mean that you yourself were also surprised at your change of heart from flight to confrontation .

You mean, he mirrored my own surprise???

Perhaps this means that you must slow down and consider well to think more clearly but I feel this is all a classic dream and a sort of Freudian one but also a real spiritual visit to the Devil . How can it be both?

not really did you read the Pistia Sophia that is 2000 years old now . Not yet. I put it on the list

Is it gnostic ?

In it Christ says that Lucifer is him and Satan is Lucifer . In Revelation *Jesus* said he is Lucifer. There are several interpretaions possible.

That is confusing but I think he means that both of them are instruments of the rising light to bring humanity back to the path of righteousness . I believe demons are evil by definition and to be avoided and that they harm us horribly in the worse place in our soul more precious than our body . I just feel that the Jewish idea that Satan is the chief prosecutor obedient to God and part of the Lucifer plan is right and that the Post Christ offering that Satan is responsible for the darkness is wrong . WE are responsible for the darkness the evil in us and the demons around us . Not Satan he is the
Guardian of the lower plane called Hells by some and he is not a fallen angel but a strong archangel who is obedient to God . So now I will change the way I pray . I do not worship him he is not God . I just respect his love of God and the job he does . And I will continue to loath the demons inside of us and outside of us . They seek our ruin not Satan . He is the merciless punisher though and the deciever and the tempter but like all things he is made by God . I think everything was created by God. Good and evil, and especially everything we call good and evil. I mean, is a cat evil? Not for me, but ask the mouse tortured to death. I do not think that God shares our subjective morals that change over the years anyway.

In the OT satan is indeed described as an archangel and obedient to God. I do not know why Christians changed this lore. Satan, the adversary, was originally an adversary to humankind, not to God. Maybe it has to do with Jesus being simultaniously Son of God and Son of Man...

As to demons, I do not have enough experience with them. I call my emotions "my little demons". But I have no problem with them, I do not fracture them.

That is further proof that this was a spiritual journey a self examination and a confrontation of evil and a testing of your soul by you and by God to see who you are obedient to . I suggest to you that if you said you worshipped him he would punish you . If you said what will you give me
for following you he would condemn you and punish you severely . Well, the topic never came up between us anyway. And if ... I have a suspicion that as I was soooo sure he was an aspect of ME (I thought it was a lucid dream after all, I did not know about OBE at that time) I would probably have asked him instead what he would do so that I would not balefire him

I have a question regarding demons. You are an excorcist, right? Do you enjoy it?

[Eugen80]

Aunt Clair,

Thanks to Bronwyn I have gotten a bit more insight into that chat thingy. Believe it or not but I never chatted before...

I tried to join that chat room on your site, but something went wrong. Dunno why, they said to try again later. But it is late here so maybe tomorrow.

I am not all too sure about chatting. I am kinda used to take my time for the posts especially in english. Well, we will see how it goes...

Why does it not work with posts but only by chat? Is it time-dependent?

[Eugen80]

Aunt Clair,

I have tried again but either I am too stupid (most probable reason ) or it simply does not work for me. I get errors and warnings regarding EU and stuff. Also I am working under Linux so maybe Mircrosoft is not all that compatible. Have you ever chatted with someone in EU?

Is there no other possiblity than chat?

[tigoCeree]

Freewaru ,
I dont know or have EU sorry .The msn messenger chat is preferable . I use the chat room on my little msn site to do clairvoyant readings instead of remote viewings . I can isolate the energy better on messenger by closing extraneous windows .
and
Yes the Pistis Sophia is gnostic apocrypha .

[gluckmeea]

Maybe "pm" (personal messages) is possible??

Frea, I can help you a bit to figure this out. You first need to go into your profile and take out the name you put there. The name you put in there is suppose to be YOUR name that you pick out for yourself when you sign up for msnm.
If you go to http://www.msn.com, there should be something that says "sign up" for msn messenger. Click on that and then there will be a form for you to fill out. Just follow the steps they say. In this process msnm will be downloading into your computer so that an icon appears for you. When you click on this icon, you will be in msn.

Take the name that you picked for msnm and type that into your profile under msn. After you submit this, an icon should appear in your profile.

[gluckmeea]

Sorry, this is the place to go, I think, to get started.

http://www.microsoft.com/mac/default.as ... nmessenger

[Eugen80]

Ah, Bronwyn, what a mess

But thank you very much for your help. I did it - correctly I assume - at least I got in but when I clicked on chat they just told me that I did not use the right system (am am working under Linux, not windows)

It is probably possible to get the right software installed that links Linux with windows but it will take time - I have not idea how to do it right now without reinstalling the whole.

But thank you again for your help

[Eugen80]

Hello Aunt Clair,

I tried but it seems that I would have to re-install my whole system software to get chat running - and I would rather not do that. Maybe there is another way - I simply do not know enough about software-stuff.

But thank you again for the offer

It seems I have visited Bronwyn in a dream - though I have no memory of it (but she does). Once I find out how to do it and remember these voyages, do I have your permission to visit you this way ?

[gluckmeea]

Hi Frea, it sounds complicating :cry:, sorry to hear about that. I have mac, so the same issue...no windows.

I have to say, Aunt Clair did bring out some good thoughts to think about concerning your dream.

There really is so much to still learn.....the Abyss, Lucifer, the Ray of Light stretching from the Abyss up to Heaven.

Truly, your dream is very thought provoking!

Peace

[tigoCeree]

I tried but it seems that I would have to re-install my whole system software to get chat running - and I would rather not do that. Maybe there is another way - I simply do not know enough about software-stuff.

hmmm neither do i sorry to say
i installed yahoo chat upgrade and everything crashed
my hubby rescued my data
and uninstalled yahoo
now everything is fine
apparently there are conflicts installing the upgrade of msn and the upgrade of yahoo on my system anyway

It seems I have visited Bronwyn in a dream - though I have no memory of it (but she does). Once I find out how to do it and remember these voyages, do I have your permission to visit you this way ? yeah sure But I may not pick up on it lol . I have a lot of mates that project and they complain that when they come to visit for us to fly together I inevitably am out of sync and say No go away I am sleeping now . Oh well I guess we take the phone off the hook and so we can choose to take the dreams and connections in projections offline too .

Maybe you can go to a mates home or an internet cafe ?