[Khurlxgq]

very interesting, mind-split effect with another subtle body?

[vRmy0Fzg]

Ok guys this happened about 14-15 years ago I was about 7 or 8 and was my first experience that I can remember with out of body experience.

I was riding in a pickup truck with my mother and her boyfriend at the time(who's name I can't remember for the life of me), the boyfriend driving my mother in the middle and me by the passenger door. We were traveling down the highway at night, I don't remember where we were heading but for some reason, (I don't know if he fell asleep or just lost control) I felt the truck jerk to the left and we were in wrong lane heading against traffic straight towards a semi. I only caught a glimpse of it before my mother pushed me down into the area where your legs rest. The next thing I know I'm floating above the scene looking down at the wreck. I watch as the semi driver gets out runs get a better look at the truck we were in and then runs back to his truck and starts to radio for help. I remember thinking to myself, "Well I guess this is it I'm dead" and wondering what happens next. I didn't see any tunnel, or angels, or relatives, or anything like that. It was just me and when I think back I think that I should have been scared but there was no fear, just some kind of acceptance, a strange calm, and a weird sense of knowing that things are as they should be. Anyway at this point time didn't seem to speed up but it must have, because immediataly the ambulance and other emergency vehicles show up. I watch as the EMT's rush up and pull the boyfriend, my mother, and me out on stretchers and place us into ambulances. At this point something caught my eye coming from the twisted heap that used to be a pickup truck. I sortof turn and focus my attention on the wreck and I see another ME with his hands on the window looking out at everything going on around, aparently scared and confused.
The next thing I know our eyes make contact and I feel what I can only describe as some kind of electricity or energy passing between us, and then the next thing I know I'm sitting straight up in the hospital with a nurse checking my vitals telling me what a lucky boy I am. Anyway I find out my when my grandmother and granny get there that my mom and her boyfriend are in critical condition and they don't know if they're going to make it, strangely enough I'm completely fine no scratches or broken bones, nothing but a strange sense of awe, and a knowing that my mom would pull through, which she did. Anyway thats it. I'd love to hear your opinions about this.

[vRmy0Fzg]

No none at all, as soon as I had seen him there was some sort of sharing of emotions, because i could feel what he was feeling but that's the extent of it.

[esenesesinas]

Very strange, there were three of you? Your body on the stretcher, you floating above the wreck, and you still in the wreck? That is very odd, does anyone know what the third him could have been?

[discountviagraman]

Hi..!
I think, Sophroniscus, we are moving in a off topic discussion. In order to maintain discussion inside boundaries of astraldynamics forums general purpose, I’ll reply about significant segments of yours, quoted as follows:

Personally, I would say that science should be trusted in those things for which it is good and useful. I would not deny, however, that there are transcendental matters for which science may not be terribly helpful. The American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce argued that one must, for example, generally trust the ethical and moral judgments of society, since they have matured over many generations of men whose experiences have true worth in helping one form his own character. And

though 10,000 scientists may scoff at his very existence. (Anyway, Donald McGlinn perhaps desire to close the thread about NDE, remove this reply from there and create a new thread in another Astraldynamics Forum like at Psychic and Spiritual Development and Experiences, he he , I’m only rambling…)

First, who determines what is good and helpful..?. For mine, public opinion. For scientist, scientific board of advisories.

Anyway, and from the public opinion viewpoint I think science has failed in some critical thematics.

Not being my will to rise in a controversial and futile discussion about what is good and helpful, I think such a science failure stems from a general disappointment of scientist about God’s commitment about Humankind. As my leader lawyer frequently says: “God doesn’t exists…”. I never though ask her: “Why not..?” My policy about complex belief systems of another people is ever to regard him, and let time and experience, although sad for me, will do its teacher like work. Humankind from a Bible viewpoint seems to be the God’s workings object; work area apparently neglected and what justifies scientist in its God’s denial task. But from my particular viewpoint, if God take broad intervention in people affaires, soon such an attitude drive Humankind to its worsening from a quality viewpoint. As late Carl Sagan sometime recognizes: “only worries about to fight against an apparently indifferent Universe is what it invigorates humankind to evolve” (word more, word less… my memory doesn’t perfect)

I’m certainly fanatic of to transpose general situation to another more comprehensible, in order to understand its hardly difficult of understand concerns. God’s intervention in Humankind affaires is comparable to money abolition. Can you imagine a world without money..? Certainly, it would be necessary to reconfigure all the economics concept. Sometime was an attempt of thought experiment about this possibility. You, Sophroniscus, done your high cultural level (more illustrated from mine done your philosopher condition), surely know it. Anyway, if money were abolished general decrease of Humankind power might be the immediate sequel.
The same is valid in order to understand, the problem as sequel of God’s intervention in Humankind affaires. Hence, God stay away from Humankind, but only in order to rule her. Something like First Directive in Star Trek series: “Do not build relationship with pre-Warp Speed civilizations”.

About your final statement “though 10,000 scientists may scoff at his very existence” and without intention of crash foundation of your attitude, but in order to feed your philosopher life I suggest examination of following link:

http://www.godless.org/sci/sr_talk.html

This is related to an Newsweek article titled: “Science Discovers God”.

My best regards...
Sincerely,
Natalia Parker

[vRmy0Fzg]

Yeah the 3rd intstance of myself is the strangest part of the whole experience, and I believe RB's mind split theory comes the closest to explaining it. To this day that part stands out above everything else because that's not the only time I've came across something that looks like me. I'll be posting some of those shortly. All of your input up to this point has been greatly appreciated.

[discountviagraman]

It is far from clear to me why looking at yourself, looking at yourself should be all that dangerous. I am certainly aware that I am thinking what I am thinking. There is no infinite regression in that. It would seem to me that the mind has ways of short-circuiting any problems that might come up. Otherwise, one could never think I...

Hi Sophroniscus..!

Related to Mental/Visual Feedback problem, let me here to add an excerpt from Treatise on Astral Projection - PART 7 ( (C) by Robert Bruce).

If a mentally awake physical mind happens to observe (with real time or astral sight) it's projected double at close range during a projection, a strong visual and telepathic connection can form between them. This can be a very disturbing experience and I don't recommend this be tried for more than a few seconds at a time. The awake physical mind (whilst a projection is in progress) must see and be seen by it's projected double for this type of connection to occur. Vision, seeing each other at the same time, appears necessary for this type of connection to occur. Once this happens, each side of the mind split, physical and projected, connect and begin to see out of each other's eyes at the same time. Each becomes aware of each other's vision and perspective as well as that of their own.

Once the visual side of this connection occurs, each side of the mind split instantly becomes aware of each other's thought's as well, simultaneously and compounding. This appears to be something like telepathic feed back, much like holding two identical 'mental' mirrors facing each other. This gives an unnatural glimpse of mental infinity - a mental reflection of a mental reflection of a mental reflection, continually compounding.

When two identical minds connect, while separated during an oobe, the two identical sets of vision and thoughts create something that can best be described as a visual and telepathic loop, compounding and feeding back upon itself in a never ending loop. This is an unnatural, incomprehensible, disturbing and possibly dangerous event for any mortal mind to experience.

This uncomfortable and confusing state appears to only occur at close range and can easily be avoided by not looking too closely at each other (physical and projected double) and by not thinking at each other at close range (within approximately twenty feet) during a real time projection. Note: this can only happen if both sides of a projector, physical and projected, are awake and become visually aware of each other during a real time projection.

This all goes a long way towards explaining why dreams and projection memories can sometimes appear so chaotic. The mind splits for a very good reason and the separated copies are meant to function separately.

I have experimented with this phenomena many times during real time projections, after discovering it accidentally during a powerful real time OOBE. I recreated the original 'accident' and studied it because the original experience raised so many questions. I had always been curious of the way I could often feel my physical body while close to it, and this mind split effect appeared to hold many of the answers I had been searching for. Like many other projectors, I had often experienced confusing anomalies during projections: of being aware of events and noises near my physical body, in and around my house, plus being aware of my remote existence during a projection. This sense of perceived duality, of having two different sets of perception, one physical and one remote, has been reported by many other projectors but has never, I believe, been properly studied or understood.

I hope have documented well this subject.
Sincerely,
Natalia Parker

[PZXjoe]

Hi BiggyMatt..!

I come of to do a carefully and critical reading of your post and I want to quote and to do comments about 2 significant segments of your exposition:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 – “I see another ME with his hands on the window looking out at everything going on around, aparently scared and confused.”

Previous quote remember to us the mind-split concept treated by RB, at its Treatise on OOBE.

2 – “The next thing I know our eyes make contact and I feel what I can only describe as some kind of electricity or energy passing between us, and then the next thing I know I'm sitting straight up in the hospital with a nurse checking my vitals telling me what a lucky boy I am.”

Previous quote remember to us the feedback phenomenon that RB advices to avoid at AP time. Certainly, the danger involved in it was reduced by the related experience (NDE) shock. The result at this case wasn’t mortal but bring you (BiggyMatt) to life again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My best wishes…

Natalia Parker

[vRmy0Fzg]

Yeah I pretty much agree that the two of me meeting eyes is probably what caused the experience to end so rapidly. Considering that during most of the obe's I've had where I even look at my physical body I'm pulled back fairly quickly with exception of a few. Also this kinda brings up another question as
to whether or not there was any of Me left in the physical body during the NDE, because I looked at it the entire time it was being pulled out and placed
into the ambulance with no aparent feedback. Is it that there was still another aspect of myself in the physical body but it was not aware at all and
that's why no feedback occured? Anyway after all these years I still haven't figured out 100% what is going on there and it still interest me.

P.S. Anyone else think it's a little strange to speak of yourself in the 1st and 3rd person in the same sentance.

[Dilangfh]

A fascinating experience.

Do you have a memory of the scared aspect of you too?

[discountviagraman]

Hi BiggyMatt..!
About my second excerpt I've exposed the hypothesis that mental/visual feedback has played a fundamental role in assuring your expedite back to body.
For more about Mental/Visual Feedback subject look at:
http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutori...lletinID=273#2
Best Wishes
Natalia Parker

[discountviagraman]

Yes, I read that -- or something very similar -- in Astral Dynamics. I'm not denying it. But I wonder if it is like running the four minute mile. Everyone knew that it couldn't be done. It just couldn't. The human body could never handle it.

But then one day, someone who didn't know the danger did it. And he didn't die from the experience.

Suddenly everyone could do it.

I don't think like you. This problem isn't like to break sound barrier or light's speed.
Nevertheless, isn't my will polemize unnecessary about it.
I'm trying of think in a critical way about the subject.
You has reason when you say: I think that I think... then I think that (I think that I think) then I think that ((I think that I think) that (I think that I think))... then, as unavoidable conclusion you can conclude I THINK and that's all.
There aren't mystery about that. My brain hasn't exploded.
But you, of sure, know the chess like strategy analysis:

1 - I know
2 - he knows that I now
3 - I know that he knows that I know
4 - he knows that I know that he knows that I know
... and so on.

Actual goals in Artificial Intelligence research plays with mathematical models pertaining annidated series like previous. A reasonable strategy analysis involves only a limited number of loops, taking into account level of deepness of knowledge level of adversary and an economical criteria in order to prevent physical (RAM or virtual) memory overloads and time expensive processes.

Physical brain has processing limits. Perhaps astral mind doesn't. If there exists possibility of establish a loop of data transmission between projected mind physical mind, done the mechanism of mind split... of sure is necessary avoid accidental establishment of such a loops. Then, danger involved by unvoluntary vicious circles must to be avoided.

But, as you says at end of your prior post, limit knowledge depends on human audacity... then, we must to expect appearance of an hero that try it..!! and if he don't went mad we will know then that's was an unnecessary taboo.

Sincerely,
Natalia Parker

[discountviagraman]

Originally Posted by nparker Hi..!
I think, Sophroniscus, we are moving in a off topic discussion.

I might tend to agree. I would apologize if I have led things away from either the forum's center, or from the subject of the original message. My only defense is that I do not quite follow your line of discourse so it was difficult for me to reply...

First, who determines what is good and helpful..?. For mine, public opinion. For scientist, scientific board of advisories.

Anyway, and from the public opinion viewpoint I think science has failed in some critical thematics.

Not being my will to rise in a controversial and futile discussion about what is good and helpful, I think such a science failure stems from a general disappointment of scientist about God’s commitment about Humankind. As my leader lawyer frequently says: “God doesn’t exists…”. I never though ask her: “Why not..?” My policy about complex belief systems of another people is ever to regard him, and let time and experience, although sad for me, will do its teacher like work. Humankind from a Bible viewpoint seems to be the God’s workings object; work area apparently neglected and what justifies scientist in its God’s denial task. But from my particular viewpoint, if God take broad intervention in people affaires, soon such an attitude drive Humankind to its worsening from a quality viewpoint. As late Carl Sagan sometime recognizes: “only worries about to fight against an apparently indifferent Universe is what it invigorates humankind to evolve” (word more, word less… my memory doesn’t perfect)

I’m certainly fanatic of to transpose general situation to another more comprehensible, in order to understand its hardly difficult of understand concerns. God’s intervention in Humankind affaires is comparable to money abolition. Can you imagine a world without money..? Certainly, it would be necessary to reconfigure all the economics concept. Sometime was an attempt of thought experiment about this possibility. You, Sophroniscus, done your high cultural level (more illustrated from mine done your philosopher condition), surely know it. Anyway, if money were abolished general decrease of Humankind power might be the immediate sequel.
The same is valid in order to understand, the problem as sequel of God’s intervention in Humankind affaires. Hence, God stay away from Humankind, but only in order to rule her. Something like First Directive in Star Trek series: “Do not build relationship with pre-Warp Speed civilizations”.

About your final statement “though 10,000 scientists may scoff at his very existence” and without intention of crash foundation of your attitude, but in order to feed your philosopher life I suggest examination of following link:

http://www.godless.org/sci/sr_talk.html

This is related to an Newsweek article titled: “Science Discovers God”.

My best regards...
Sincerely,
Natalia Parker

I am at a loss, sorry. I am not sure how the discussion became one of whether God exists. I am not aware of having raised the issue. I would simply say this... I remember a philosophy professor who was considering whether this is the most perfect of all possible worlds. (Clearly the answer would be No if one believes that it was created by an infinite God, since such a God could always create an even better world.) As I was saying that professor was addressing the question. He threw out an idea which might be worth repeating... He asked whether this is the most ambiguous of all worlds. The question is worth some thought. And equally, one might ask why God would create such an ambiguous world.

In any event, I was interested in the question of whether one can (in theory) have a stable view of oneself in an OBE (or NDE), not in whether God exists. Perhaps it would be best if I were to start a new thread on that subject, instead of trying to address it in this thread. Hi, Sophroniscus...!

My only defense is that I do not quite follow your line of discourse so it was difficult for me to reply... My line of discurse of difficult done (1) my poor english quality expression or (2) the conceptual complexity of my discurse..?

If (1) I'm sorry, I'll cut here this opinion interchange and I apologize you from the commitment of to continue answering my posts. As citizen from Republica Argentina that I am, (although a substantial segment of my M. Sc. in Physics was gathering knowledge from books written in english) I think, I read and I write in spanish the 95 % of my awake time, then my failure is understandable (but not forgettable since I recognize I must to achieve proficiency in the dominion of this unversal language). By other hand, my understanding of english is intuition based. In order to read a text in english, simply I read without translate it... but internally (I suppose) I understand text since I know the mean of words and syntactic structures. Sometimes, facing an unknown concept I do basically a "by context" translation. Similar process I develop at writing-in-english time. At his time an a posteriori debugging and style polishing is done.

If (2) I must to recognize that I'm not theologist. But, I think, most of classical philosophers didn´t have formal education (may I wrong, of course) on the thematics they are used to. My opinion about this is: all and each of us has a cosmo-vision as respectable as the cosmo-vision of the most illustrated and wise priests or Universitary cathedratics, then unless you already decided to cut this interchange done my out-of-focus audacity writing about thematics far from my basic education... well, I think time is the most valuable we have and, certainly, you must to obey saving instinct related to it. Then, don't worry, I will accept your attitude as an out-of-discussion will and finish this interchange without reproach. Anyway this interchange no other time was intended by me and it was, certainly, useful, since it helped to think and analyze what do I really are able of to think.

About your quote:

I remember a philosophy professor who was considering whether this is the most perfect of all possible worlds. (Clearly the answer would be No if one believes that it was created by an infinite God, since such a God could always create an even better world.) As I was saying that professor was addressing the question. He threw out an idea which might be worth repeating... He asked whether this is the most ambiguous of all worlds. The question is worth some thought. And equally, one might ask why God would create such an ambiguous world. I watch as interesting the thoughts there, and I'm all right about the idea of to start a new thread. I'll take the initiative. The targeted forum section will be Psychic and Spiritual Development and Experiences.

I will send a PM when thread shall start.

My best regards...
Sincerely,
Natalia Parker

[discountviagraman]

Hi Sophroniscus...

I´m 40 years old and part of my education deals with Universitary Physics. Actually, in reason of many administration tasks (and many problems derived from Republica Argentina economical policy) related to a huge familiar fortune and my ethical commitment of to protect it, my attention is far of my spiritual and scientific goals, but some day it all change… I´ve no doubt about it.

My OBE related academic attitude is “If such thing really exists, then it is understandable in physical terms. There aren´t nothing supernatural. Only there are scientific facts bad understood”. With time and patience, and taking as reference real study subjects like Robert Bruce (and not illusionists and magicians of saloon) mainstream science will evolve and include in its framework OBE phenomenology. That’s a certitude for me since I’ve proven OBE reality and many more psychic phenomena (so… since it seems you´re another scientist, I want to encourage you in pursuit of achieving similar abilities). About Robert Bruce’s “Mental/Visual Feedback Problem” to date unfortunately I cannot establish or close the visual circuit, in order to verify RB claims. Anyway, perhaps, it is result of my Higher Self (or my Keeper Angel) intervention avoiding an unfortunate result. If that’s the case… Thank You, wherever you are..!!

My best regards…
Sincerely,
Natalia Parker