Olympic Medal table For fencing. - Page 2 - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**CtEkM8Vq** · 09-01-2012, 05:41 AM

Yep.

Nor could I. But Sheng getting a medal wasn't a surprise was it?

We're not disagreeing. I like the unpredictability - it's interesting. The results in Epee say nothing about the quality - good or bad.

This:

No - in all seriousness I think epee is the most level playing field of the 3 weapons, not a 'lottery' by any means. Just more open to upsets.

**tpdirorg** · 09-01-2012, 05:41 AM

Remind me what weapon the fencing power houses of Norway and Venezuela got their medals in, oh of course ... the one true weapon where ranking on the day count for nowt.

Andrew,

Since 1996, 15 medals have been won. We can only really count the Norwegians medal as a surprise.

I think for major events ie GP's (though not always) World Championships and Olympic Games to medal there are strong indicators that a certain performance level is required.

Limardos profile:

He was ranked 13th before the event, 5th ranked in the world last year, 11th, 15th, 20th and 22nd the years before. As a junior he was top 10 as a 17 year old, number 1 as an 18 year old, and as a 19 year old, won all 6 U20 agrades he entered in his last year as a Junior, oh and the World U20 Championships as well. To say he was not one of the favorites to win the Olympics in 2012 would be wrong.

http://www.fie.ch/Competitions/Fence...F4538AF1E99B36

In 2000, Kolobkov had won 4 Worlds and had 3 Olympic medals behind him before he won, he was also Junior World Champion twice, winner of numerous GP's, A'grades

2004 Marcel Fischer was ranked number 2 before the event, had been top 20 for 5 years prior to that having won numerous GP's and A' Grades. He was a world class Junior as well.

2008 Tagliorol was ranked 3 the year before the event, had won numerous GP's and A grades and was also a world class U20 fencer.

2012 - Silver medalist The Norwegian (who is trained by his Polish father) was a world class Junior in his last year won the Zonal qualifier and had made a top 16 in a GP in the run up to the event. Based on the pedigree of all other medalists from 1996 onwards he was a surprise.

**carfAball** · 09-01-2012, 05:41 AM

No - in all seriousness I think epee is the most level playing field of the 3 weapons, not a 'lottery' by any means. Just more open to upsets.

Just as are meant to back up up our assertions (plus I dislike epee being called a lottery) I did this:

The full Olympic cycle for men was looked at (mainly because its going to be the most competitive of the cycles - nearly everyone will want to attend all the comps.) competition by competition (minus zonal comps) and the numbers of top 16 fencers making the L16 were totalled as was the number of top 8 fencers making the L8. I didn't work out the number of top 16 fencers making the last 8 as you would have top 16 fencers fighting each other and this would produced skewed stats (plus I couldn't be bothered).

These totals were then worked as a percentage of the total year. For example, there are 9 comps (5 World Cups, 3 Grand Prix events and 1 World Championships) so a total of 144 opportunities for a top 16 fencer to make the L16 and 72 opportunites for a top 8 fencer to make the top 8.

The results are as follows:

Epee - Top 16 fencers made up 49.31% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 27.78% of the L8's.

Top 8: There were 4 competitions where one fencer or none from the top 8 made the L8 and 3 competitions where 4 made the L8 (this was the maximum at any comp)

Foil - Top 16 fencers made up 53.47% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 31.94% of the L8's.

Top 8: There was 1 competition where one fencer from the top 8 made the L8 and 2 competitions where 4 made the L8 (this was the maximum at any comp)

Sabre - Top 16 fencers made up 61.11% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 51.39% of the L8's.

Top 8: There was 1 competitions where no from the top 8 made the L8 and 7 competitions where 4 or more made the L8 (maximum was 6)

Conclusion: Fairly obvious to anyone but Epee is the most unpredictable of the 3 weapons looked at and Sabre most predictable. Note I am not talking individuals as the top 16 and top 8 did vary throughout the season. If anyone wants the tables PM me your e-mail address I'll happily send it over and if anyone wants to know the results for the women, again, let me know I'll work it out.

**9Goarveboofe** · 09-01-2012, 05:41 AM

Limardo was a surprise. From your own stats he was on a downward trend and he was only there because he was from Venezuela (despite training in Poland and France for years).
To say he was a favourite is a mistake. To say he was a possible is correct.

**draigenia** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

2004 Marcel Fischer was ranked number 2 before the event, had been top 20 for 5 years prior to that having won numerous GP's and A' Grades. He was a world class Junior as well.

Plus he came 4th in Sydney.

2012 - Silver medalist The Norwegian (who is trained by his Polish father) was a world class Junior in his last year won the Zonal qualifier and had made a top 16 in a GP in the run up to the event. Based on the pedigree of all other medalists from 1996 onwards he was a surprise.

He only won the L8 at the zonal event by 1 hit in overtime (did they actually bother fighting off for the top 4?), much like Fischer in 2004

**jokilewqs** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

Just as are meant to back up up our assertions (plus I dislike epee being called a lottery) I did this:

The full Olympic cycle for men was looked at (mainly because its going to be the most competitive of the cycles - nearly everyone will want to attend all the comps.) competition by competition (minus zonal comps) and the numbers of top 16 fencers making the L16 were totalled as was the number of top 8 fencers making the L8. I didn't work out the number of top 16 fencers making the last 8 as you would have top 16 fencers fighting each other and this would produced skewed stats (plus I couldn't be bothered).

These totals were then worked as a percentage of the total year. For example, there are 9 comps (5 World Cups, 3 Grand Prix events and 1 World Championships) so a total of 144 opportunities for a top 16 fencer to make the L16 and 72 opportunites for a top 8 fencer to make the top 8.

The results are as follows:

Epee - Top 16 fencers made up 49.31% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 27.78% of the L8's.

[i]Top 8: There were 4 competitions where one fencer or none from the top 8 made the L8 and 3 competitions where 4 made the L8 (this was the maximum at any comp)

Foil - Top 16 fencers made up 53.47% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 31.94% of the L8's.

[i]Top 8: There was 1 competition where one fencer from the top 8 made the L8 and 2 competitions where 4 made the L8 (this was the maximum at any comp)

Sabre - Top 16 fencers made up 61.11% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 51.39% of the L8's.

[i]Top 8: There was 1 competitions where no from the top 8 made the L8 and 7 competitions where 4 or more made the L8 (maximum was 6)

Conclusion: Fairly obvious to anyone but Epee is the most unpredictable of the 3 weapons looked at and Sabre most predictable. Note I am not talking individuals as the top 16 and top 8 did vary throughout the season. If anyone wants the tables PM me your e-mail address I'll happily send it over and if anyone wants to know the results for the women, again, let me know I'll work it out. probably best to run an anova on those to be honest, as they don't appear significant at first glance...

If only I could be arsed. But then the BFA would have proper info to make decisions with...

**ionitiesk** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

Conclusion: Fairly obvious to anyone but Epee is the most unpredictable of the 3 weapons looked at and Sabre most predictable. Note I am not talking individuals as the top 16 and top 8 did vary throughout the season. If anyone wants the tables PM me your e-mail address I'll happily send it over and if anyone wants to know the results for the women, again, let me know I'll work it out.

So without qualifiers and having the use of a wildcard allocation system statistically we would have had more chance of success by entering as many epeeists as we could?

**Kiliunjubl** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

So without qualifiers and having the use of a wildcard allocation system statistically we would have had more chance of success by entering as many epeeists as we could?

No comment....

**DoctorNiCYDEn** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

No comment....

Actually just for the sake of complete clarity I WOULD be interested in knowing if there is any variance from those results in the female stats

**Caregrasy** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

Actually just for the sake of complete clarity I WOULD be interested in knowing if there is any variance from those results in the female stats

Maaaan, give me a little time...

**kenowinnumberss** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

As requested:

The full Olympic cycle for women was looked at (mainly because its going to be the most competitive of the cycles - nearly everyone will want to attend all the comps.) competition by competition (minus zonal comps) and the numbers of top 16 fencers making the L16 were totalled as was the number of top 8 fencers making the L8. I didn't work out the number of top 16 fencers making the last 8 as you would have top 16 fencers fighting each other and this would produced skewed stats (plus I couldn't be bothered).

These totals were then worked as a percentage of the total year. For example, there are 9 comps (5 World Cups, 3 Grand Prix events and 1 World Championships) so a total of 144 opportunities for a top 16 fencer to make the L16 and 72 opportunites for a top 8 fencer to make the top 8.

The results are as follows:

Epee - Top 16 fencers made up 47.92% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 31.94% of the L8's.

Top 8: There were 4 competitions where only one fencer from the top 8 made the L8 and 3 competitions where 4 made the L8 (5 being the maximum)

Foil - Top 16 fencers made up 57.64% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 50.00% of the L8's.

Top 8: There were 0 competitions where 2 or less fencers from the top 8 made the L8 and 7 competitions where at least 4 made the L8 (maximum being 5)

Sabre - Top 16 fencers made up 61.11% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 51.39% of the L8's.

Top 8: There was 1 competition where only 1 from the top 8 made the L8 and 6 competitions where 4 or more made the L8 (maximum was 6)

Conclusion mk.2: Again, fairly obvious but Epee is the most unpredictable of the 3 weapons looked at and Sabre most predictable (but only just when comparing top 8 fencers). And no, I am not joking, the sabre totals for men and women were exactly the same.

Note I am not talking individuals as the top 16 and top 8 did vary throughout the season. Same as before, if anyone wants the tables PM me your e-mail address I'll happily send it over

**DiBellaBam** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

tempted as I am to repeat my previous question about the conclusion I suppose it would be flagellating a deceased equine so I wont....... i'll just grin & send some poz to TB

**SergeyMaikov** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

No-one from the top 4 made the last four in sabre, fine..that is unusual (from my viewpoint anyway): the sabreurs making the final were ranked 6, 8, 9 and 14. In the epee it was 13, 15, 20 and 47

And for the sake of fairness. Top 4 MF finishers were ranked 6, 8, 9 and 14 too.. Weird huh?

Women:
Foil last four were ranked 1, 2, 3, 4 (ouch.)
Epee last four were 1, 11, 12 and 15
Sabre last four were 1, 2, 3 and 5 (ouch too.)

**Pharmaciest** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

Caramba!

I must have missed the memo. Is it Latin American beatdown Tuesday? I'll run to get my Kevlar sombrero:

Limardo was a surprise. From your own stats he was on a downward trend and he was only there because he was from Venezuela (despite training in Poland and France for years).
To say he was a favourite is a mistake. To say he was a possible is correct.

Too ruddy right, I say! Ruddy Latin Americans (That Limardo and that other Chap, Silvio Fernandez, how dare he finish 6th, I say!) working hard and taking Olympic spaces that could have been given to other, clearly more deserving island nations, going on and winning GOLD medals that should have correctly been given to other, clearly more deserving island nations, then getting on our public transport, partying, having photos taken and salsa dancing with tourists!

A travesty, I say, a sheer, unimaginable travesty!

**bF8CCmmr** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

Caramba!

I must have missed the memo. Is it Latin American beatdown Tuesday? I'll run to get my Kevlar sombrero:

Too ruddy right, I say! Ruddy Latin Americans (That Limardo and that other Chap, Silvio Fernandez, how dare he finish 6th, I say!) working hard and taking Olympic spaces that could have been given to other, clearly more deserving island nations, going on and winning GOLD medals that should have correctly been given to other, clearly more deserving island nations, then getting on our public transport, partying, having photos taken and salsa dancing with tourists!

A travesty, I say, a sheer, unimaginable travesty!

What Threestain means is that the qualification system allocates a certain number of places per continent/zone. On the ranking points he had (including a comparatively weak zonal championships) it is unlikely that Limardo would have qualified had he been in the European zone.

**juidizHusw** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

What Threestain means is that the qualification system allocates a certain number of places per continent/zone. On the ranking points he had (including a comparatively weak zonal championships) it is unlikely that Limardo would have qualified had he been in the European zone.

I know exactly what he said. TomA.

That's the worrying part.

It's called externalizing.

'Oh, he only got in because he's from a weak zone and didn't have to go through the horribly qualifying we had to go through being in Europe!'

He still had to beat a fair few 'Europeans' to get to the semifinals and another one to win the gold.

So did Abouelkassem, for that matter.

But those victories will be attributed by some as 'luck of the day', rather than a graceful acknowledgement that those particular fencers from those unlikely countries who won medals put in the hard work and effort the years before the Olympics, and on the day did every single thing they needed to do right.

**Uciaucrx** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

I know exactly what he said. TomA.

That's the worrying part.

It's called externalizing.

'Oh, he only got in because he's from a weak zone and didn't have to go through the horribly qualifying we had to go through being in Europe!'

He still had to beat a fair few 'Europeans' to get to the semifinals and another one to win the gold.

So did Abouelkassem, for that matter.

But those victories will be attributed by some as 'luck of the day', rather than a graceful acknowledgement that those particular fencers from those unlikely countries who won medals put in the hard work and effort the years before the Olympics, and on the day did every single thing they needed to do right.

I think you're over-egging it a little.

It is undeniable that he qualified on a much easier path than the European fencers.

That's says nothing about his ability as a fencer because I already knew that Limardo was quality. Same with Abouelkassem. Some may say it [his victories] was "down to luck" but I don't think it's fair to put those words into Tom's mouth. There's nothing snide being said here. Don't make this a discussion on tedious political correctness.

Limardo has been one of the most popular victors I can think of. Abouelkassem one of the most popular silver medallists. Let's not sour this discussion.

**Vitoethiche** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

I think you're over-egging it a little.

It is undeniable that he qualified on a much easier path than the European fencers.

That's says nothing about his ability as a fencer because I already knew that Limardo was quality. Same with Abouelkassem. Some may say it [his victories] was "down to luck" but I don't think it's fair to put those words into Tom's mouth. There's nothing snide being said here. Don't make this a discussion on tedious political correctness.

Limardo has been one of the most popular victors I can think of. Abouelkassem one of the most popular silver medallists. Let's not sour this discussion.

You're right, Gav. Not going to sour discussion, and both fencers have been extremely popular and positive for the sport after their achievements.

(and I wasn't trying to put words in Tom's mouth, that would be just be icky

)

**bestformaldress23** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

Some may say it [his victories] was "down to luck"...

Luck only gets you so far....like into the event in the first place at most. Beyond that, it was skill, pure & simple.

**DianaDrk** · 09-01-2012, 05:42 AM

Bit of an insult to Limardo. He's actually done enough the past few years to merit his gold.

How is what I said an insult to Limardo? At that level in epee ranking counts for nothing. At my level it matters. I ain't gonna take down Willis, Perry, Lane, Bennet, Allen (Christ, I can't even beat my daughter) but I expect those guys would back themselves against each other. I have not said anything about luck or fluke. However missing the target in epee is of course more heavily punished than in foil. It is a part of the character of epee that makes predicting the outcome harder.

My point, which granted probably needed more explaining, was that relatively "weak" fencing nations are able to medal at epee more readily than the other weapons. Egypt's emergence is Men's foil (and epee) is great. Willis (who in my opinion thrives on a crowd) in London would have been equally hard to predict.

... And when since has the Caribbean tried to beat down Latin America?

09-01-2012, 05:41 AM	#21
CtEkM8Vq Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 531 Senior Member	Yep. Nor could I. But Sheng getting a medal wasn't a surprise was it? We're not disagreeing. I like the unpredictability - it's interesting. The results in Epee say nothing about the quality - good or bad. This: No - in all seriousness I think epee is the most level playing field of the 3 weapons, not a 'lottery' by any means. Just more open to upsets. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:41 AM	#22
tpdirorg Join Date Nov 2005 Posts 372 Senior Member	Remind me what weapon the fencing power houses of Norway and Venezuela got their medals in, oh of course ... the one true weapon where ranking on the day count for nowt. Andrew, Since 1996, 15 medals have been won. We can only really count the Norwegians medal as a surprise. I think for major events ie GP's (though not always) World Championships and Olympic Games to medal there are strong indicators that a certain performance level is required. Limardos profile: He was ranked 13th before the event, 5th ranked in the world last year, 11th, 15th, 20th and 22nd the years before. As a junior he was top 10 as a 17 year old, number 1 as an 18 year old, and as a 19 year old, won all 6 U20 agrades he entered in his last year as a Junior, oh and the World U20 Championships as well. To say he was not one of the favorites to win the Olympics in 2012 would be wrong. http://www.fie.ch/Competitions/Fence...F4538AF1E99B36 In 2000, Kolobkov had won 4 Worlds and had 3 Olympic medals behind him before he won, he was also Junior World Champion twice, winner of numerous GP's, A'grades 2004 Marcel Fischer was ranked number 2 before the event, had been top 20 for 5 years prior to that having won numerous GP's and A' Grades. He was a world class Junior as well. 2008 Tagliorol was ranked 3 the year before the event, had won numerous GP's and A grades and was also a world class U20 fencer. 2012 - Silver medalist The Norwegian (who is trained by his Polish father) was a world class Junior in his last year won the Zonal qualifier and had made a top 16 in a GP in the run up to the event. Based on the pedigree of all other medalists from 1996 onwards he was a surprise. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:41 AM	#23
carfAball Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 599 Senior Member	No - in all seriousness I think epee is the most level playing field of the 3 weapons, not a 'lottery' by any means. Just more open to upsets. Just as are meant to back up up our assertions (plus I dislike epee being called a lottery) I did this: The full Olympic cycle for men was looked at (mainly because its going to be the most competitive of the cycles - nearly everyone will want to attend all the comps.) competition by competition (minus zonal comps) and the numbers of top 16 fencers making the L16 were totalled as was the number of top 8 fencers making the L8. I didn't work out the number of top 16 fencers making the last 8 as you would have top 16 fencers fighting each other and this would produced skewed stats (plus I couldn't be bothered). These totals were then worked as a percentage of the total year. For example, there are 9 comps (5 World Cups, 3 Grand Prix events and 1 World Championships) so a total of 144 opportunities for a top 16 fencer to make the L16 and 72 opportunites for a top 8 fencer to make the top 8. The results are as follows: Epee - Top 16 fencers made up 49.31% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 27.78% of the L8's. Top 8: There were 4 competitions where one fencer or none from the top 8 made the L8 and 3 competitions where 4 made the L8 (this was the maximum at any comp) Foil - Top 16 fencers made up 53.47% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 31.94% of the L8's. Top 8: There was 1 competition where one fencer from the top 8 made the L8 and 2 competitions where 4 made the L8 (this was the maximum at any comp) Sabre - Top 16 fencers made up 61.11% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 51.39% of the L8's. Top 8: There was 1 competitions where no from the top 8 made the L8 and 7 competitions where 4 or more made the L8 (maximum was 6) Conclusion: Fairly obvious to anyone but Epee is the most unpredictable of the 3 weapons looked at and Sabre most predictable. Note I am not talking individuals as the top 16 and top 8 did vary throughout the season. If anyone wants the tables PM me your e-mail address I'll happily send it over and if anyone wants to know the results for the women, again, let me know I'll work it out. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:41 AM	#24
9Goarveboofe Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 481 Senior Member	Limardo was a surprise. From your own stats he was on a downward trend and he was only there because he was from Venezuela (despite training in Poland and France for years). To say he was a favourite is a mistake. To say he was a possible is correct. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#25
draigenia Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 534 Senior Member	2004 Marcel Fischer was ranked number 2 before the event, had been top 20 for 5 years prior to that having won numerous GP's and A' Grades. He was a world class Junior as well. Plus he came 4th in Sydney. 2012 - Silver medalist The Norwegian (who is trained by his Polish father) was a world class Junior in his last year won the Zonal qualifier and had made a top 16 in a GP in the run up to the event. Based on the pedigree of all other medalists from 1996 onwards he was a surprise. He only won the L8 at the zonal event by 1 hit in overtime (did they actually bother fighting off for the top 4?), much like Fischer in 2004 Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#26
jokilewqs Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 521 Senior Member	Just as are meant to back up up our assertions (plus I dislike epee being called a lottery) I did this: The full Olympic cycle for men was looked at (mainly because its going to be the most competitive of the cycles - nearly everyone will want to attend all the comps.) competition by competition (minus zonal comps) and the numbers of top 16 fencers making the L16 were totalled as was the number of top 8 fencers making the L8. I didn't work out the number of top 16 fencers making the last 8 as you would have top 16 fencers fighting each other and this would produced skewed stats (plus I couldn't be bothered). These totals were then worked as a percentage of the total year. For example, there are 9 comps (5 World Cups, 3 Grand Prix events and 1 World Championships) so a total of 144 opportunities for a top 16 fencer to make the L16 and 72 opportunites for a top 8 fencer to make the top 8. The results are as follows: Epee - Top 16 fencers made up 49.31% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 27.78% of the L8's. [i]Top 8: There were 4 competitions where one fencer or none from the top 8 made the L8 and 3 competitions where 4 made the L8 (this was the maximum at any comp) Foil - Top 16 fencers made up 53.47% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 31.94% of the L8's. [i]Top 8: There was 1 competition where one fencer from the top 8 made the L8 and 2 competitions where 4 made the L8 (this was the maximum at any comp) Sabre - Top 16 fencers made up 61.11% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 51.39% of the L8's. [i]Top 8: There was 1 competitions where no from the top 8 made the L8 and 7 competitions where 4 or more made the L8 (maximum was 6) Conclusion: Fairly obvious to anyone but Epee is the most unpredictable of the 3 weapons looked at and Sabre most predictable. Note I am not talking individuals as the top 16 and top 8 did vary throughout the season. If anyone wants the tables PM me your e-mail address I'll happily send it over and if anyone wants to know the results for the women, again, let me know I'll work it out. probably best to run an anova on those to be honest, as they don't appear significant at first glance... If only I could be arsed. But then the BFA would have proper info to make decisions with... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#27
ionitiesk Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 438 Senior Member	Conclusion: Fairly obvious to anyone but Epee is the most unpredictable of the 3 weapons looked at and Sabre most predictable. Note I am not talking individuals as the top 16 and top 8 did vary throughout the season. If anyone wants the tables PM me your e-mail address I'll happily send it over and if anyone wants to know the results for the women, again, let me know I'll work it out. So without qualifiers and having the use of a wildcard allocation system statistically we would have had more chance of success by entering as many epeeists as we could? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#28
Kiliunjubl Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 481 Senior Member	So without qualifiers and having the use of a wildcard allocation system statistically we would have had more chance of success by entering as many epeeists as we could? No comment.... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#29
DoctorNiCYDEn Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 515 Senior Member	No comment.... Actually just for the sake of complete clarity I WOULD be interested in knowing if there is any variance from those results in the female stats Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#30
Caregrasy Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 444 Senior Member	Actually just for the sake of complete clarity I WOULD be interested in knowing if there is any variance from those results in the female stats Maaaan, give me a little time... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#31
kenowinnumberss Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 458 Senior Member	As requested: The full Olympic cycle for women was looked at (mainly because its going to be the most competitive of the cycles - nearly everyone will want to attend all the comps.) competition by competition (minus zonal comps) and the numbers of top 16 fencers making the L16 were totalled as was the number of top 8 fencers making the L8. I didn't work out the number of top 16 fencers making the last 8 as you would have top 16 fencers fighting each other and this would produced skewed stats (plus I couldn't be bothered). These totals were then worked as a percentage of the total year. For example, there are 9 comps (5 World Cups, 3 Grand Prix events and 1 World Championships) so a total of 144 opportunities for a top 16 fencer to make the L16 and 72 opportunites for a top 8 fencer to make the top 8. The results are as follows: Epee - Top 16 fencers made up 47.92% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 31.94% of the L8's. Top 8: There were 4 competitions where only one fencer from the top 8 made the L8 and 3 competitions where 4 made the L8 (5 being the maximum) Foil - Top 16 fencers made up 57.64% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 50.00% of the L8's. Top 8: There were 0 competitions where 2 or less fencers from the top 8 made the L8 and 7 competitions where at least 4 made the L8 (maximum being 5) Sabre - Top 16 fencers made up 61.11% of L16 placings over the year. Top 8 fencers made up 51.39% of the L8's. Top 8: There was 1 competition where only 1 from the top 8 made the L8 and 6 competitions where 4 or more made the L8 (maximum was 6) Conclusion mk.2: Again, fairly obvious but Epee is the most unpredictable of the 3 weapons looked at and Sabre most predictable (but only just when comparing top 8 fencers). And no, I am not joking, the sabre totals for men and women were exactly the same. Note I am not talking individuals as the top 16 and top 8 did vary throughout the season. Same as before, if anyone wants the tables PM me your e-mail address I'll happily send it over Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#32
DiBellaBam Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 368 Senior Member	tempted as I am to repeat my previous question about the conclusion I suppose it would be flagellating a deceased equine so I wont....... i'll just grin & send some poz to TB Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#33
SergeyMaikov Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 475 Senior Member	No-one from the top 4 made the last four in sabre, fine..that is unusual (from my viewpoint anyway): the sabreurs making the final were ranked 6, 8, 9 and 14. In the epee it was 13, 15, 20 and 47 And for the sake of fairness. Top 4 MF finishers were ranked 6, 8, 9 and 14 too.. Weird huh? Women: Foil last four were ranked 1, 2, 3, 4 (ouch.) Epee last four were 1, 11, 12 and 15 Sabre last four were 1, 2, 3 and 5 (ouch too.) Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#34
Pharmaciest Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 426 Senior Member	Caramba! I must have missed the memo. Is it Latin American beatdown Tuesday? I'll run to get my Kevlar sombrero: Limardo was a surprise. From your own stats he was on a downward trend and he was only there because he was from Venezuela (despite training in Poland and France for years). To say he was a favourite is a mistake. To say he was a possible is correct. Too ruddy right, I say! Ruddy Latin Americans (That Limardo and that other Chap, Silvio Fernandez, how dare he finish 6th, I say!) working hard and taking Olympic spaces that could have been given to other, clearly more deserving island nations, going on and winning GOLD medals that should have correctly been given to other, clearly more deserving island nations, then getting on our public transport, partying, having photos taken and salsa dancing with tourists! A travesty, I say, a sheer, unimaginable travesty! Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#35
bF8CCmmr Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 531 Senior Member	Caramba! I must have missed the memo. Is it Latin American beatdown Tuesday? I'll run to get my Kevlar sombrero: Too ruddy right, I say! Ruddy Latin Americans (That Limardo and that other Chap, Silvio Fernandez, how dare he finish 6th, I say!) working hard and taking Olympic spaces that could have been given to other, clearly more deserving island nations, going on and winning GOLD medals that should have correctly been given to other, clearly more deserving island nations, then getting on our public transport, partying, having photos taken and salsa dancing with tourists! A travesty, I say, a sheer, unimaginable travesty! What Threestain means is that the qualification system allocates a certain number of places per continent/zone. On the ranking points he had (including a comparatively weak zonal championships) it is unlikely that Limardo would have qualified had he been in the European zone. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#36
juidizHusw Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 328 Senior Member	What Threestain means is that the qualification system allocates a certain number of places per continent/zone. On the ranking points he had (including a comparatively weak zonal championships) it is unlikely that Limardo would have qualified had he been in the European zone. I know exactly what he said. TomA. That's the worrying part. It's called externalizing. 'Oh, he only got in because he's from a weak zone and didn't have to go through the horribly qualifying we had to go through being in Europe!' He still had to beat a fair few 'Europeans' to get to the semifinals and another one to win the gold. So did Abouelkassem, for that matter. But those victories will be attributed by some as 'luck of the day', rather than a graceful acknowledgement that those particular fencers from those unlikely countries who won medals put in the hard work and effort the years before the Olympics, and on the day did every single thing they needed to do right. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#37
Uciaucrx Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 430 Senior Member	I know exactly what he said. TomA. That's the worrying part. It's called externalizing. 'Oh, he only got in because he's from a weak zone and didn't have to go through the horribly qualifying we had to go through being in Europe!' He still had to beat a fair few 'Europeans' to get to the semifinals and another one to win the gold. So did Abouelkassem, for that matter. But those victories will be attributed by some as 'luck of the day', rather than a graceful acknowledgement that those particular fencers from those unlikely countries who won medals put in the hard work and effort the years before the Olympics, and on the day did every single thing they needed to do right. I think you're over-egging it a little. It is undeniable that he qualified on a much easier path than the European fencers. That's says nothing about his ability as a fencer because I already knew that Limardo was quality. Same with Abouelkassem. Some may say it [his victories] was "down to luck" but I don't think it's fair to put those words into Tom's mouth. There's nothing snide being said here. Don't make this a discussion on tedious political correctness. Limardo has been one of the most popular victors I can think of. Abouelkassem one of the most popular silver medallists. Let's not sour this discussion. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#38
Vitoethiche Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 400 Senior Member	I think you're over-egging it a little. It is undeniable that he qualified on a much easier path than the European fencers. That's says nothing about his ability as a fencer because I already knew that Limardo was quality. Same with Abouelkassem. Some may say it [his victories] was "down to luck" but I don't think it's fair to put those words into Tom's mouth. There's nothing snide being said here. Don't make this a discussion on tedious political correctness. Limardo has been one of the most popular victors I can think of. Abouelkassem one of the most popular silver medallists. Let's not sour this discussion. You're right, Gav. Not going to sour discussion, and both fencers have been extremely popular and positive for the sport after their achievements. (and I wasn't trying to put words in Tom's mouth, that would be just be icky ) Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#39
bestformaldress23 Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 472 Senior Member	Some may say it [his victories] was "down to luck"... Luck only gets you so far....like into the event in the first place at most. Beyond that, it was skill, pure & simple. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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09-01-2012, 05:42 AM	#40
DianaDrk Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 359 Senior Member	Bit of an insult to Limardo. He's actually done enough the past few years to merit his gold. How is what I said an insult to Limardo? At that level in epee ranking counts for nothing. At my level it matters. I ain't gonna take down Willis, Perry, Lane, Bennet, Allen (Christ, I can't even beat my daughter) but I expect those guys would back themselves against each other. I have not said anything about luck or fluke. However missing the target in epee is of course more heavily punished than in foil. It is a part of the character of epee that makes predicting the outcome harder. My point, which granted probably needed more explaining, was that relatively "weak" fencing nations are able to medal at epee more readily than the other weapons. Egypt's emergence is Men's foil (and epee) is great. Willis (who in my opinion thrives on a crowd) in London would have been equally hard to predict. ... And when since has the Caribbean tried to beat down Latin America? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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