[RilmAlime67]

There are so many theories and I do not know what is right. Was there ever a big bang? and if so why are some stars now accelerating and others becoming slower? Why are some going away from ever other whilst some seem to be converging? Was it a caused by a collision between universes rather that from a single source? Is time constantly instant and only appears chronological to us and therefore we have a distorted perception of things? Why is quantum physics so chaotic and the universe appears not?
It seems to me that science has its difficulties as does faith.

[f6HLLFcw]

What is God?

It appears that question has to be answered before anyone can answer the atheist vs. agnostic question.

Some years ago, most particularly in the Bible Belt, it was pretty easy to say whether you believed what the preacher said about God.

For the bunch of us in this online tribe of heretics the answer seems pretty clear. I don't think anyone here would agree with that Bible Belt preacher's definition of God.

I'd guess that most of us would disagree with most people's ideas of what God(s) might be like that are floating around out there.

Considering what we now know about the universe - how big, complex & strange - it's hard to reconcile the ideas of God as creator of the universe and God as an entity that cares about little old me & you.

I have trouble with the idea that God has infinite power, yet is unable to communicate with us in a clear and unmistakeable way. It would certainly save a lot of confusion if there were just a few more clues. The Bible Belt Preacher's ideas just don't make sense to me.

Still I have a feeling there is something there. Does that make me agnostic?

In the context of the Bible Belt Preacher, my adopting the tag of agnostic would imply that I think he just might be right after all. That's certainly not true.

Here, in the context of this tribe of free-thinking individualists, I don't think the terms agnostic and atheist really have useful meaning.

[WomanBreast40356]

~ Well, I was raised Unitarian Universalist. They believe in a Universal Unity.
{Cool place by the way! They welcome covens & Pagans & just about anyone. Conservatives, religious or political, generally don't feel comfortable, but at most churches they're still welcome.}

My father was an Atheist. Thoroughly believed that the personality was created by the biologically created electrical impulses in the brain & when the body died, that's it. No 'mind'. No 'soul'.
{He was always a lonely person, afraid of himself & closeness. Don't know if that has any connection, he was just an unhappy person. Lots are tho'.}

Me? I waver. Sometimes this, sometimes that. Sometimes what others call Gnostic, sometimes Pagan, sometimes Agnostic, sometimes what no one has a lable for, most often drunk.
Doesn't bother me whatever others want to call me... I call myself Qryos Claire. {Curious? lol}

I know, lables are very very handy, they're like a short Biography or something, giving a clue about what you may have in common, what you probably shouldn't talk about, etc.
But y'know, judging a book by the cover all the time could mean ya miss out on some interesting stories! {Well, & jokes too!}

[boXGWf04]

I think that it's more a matter of there needs to be some sort of title so that there's some sort of description when communicating about it all ft. We also felt that we needed this particular forum so that nonbelievers were represented here, and ULC ordains all. There are Unitarian Universalists, as well as Discordians, who label themselves a "religion" but yet don't have a belief in deity. (Alot of the UU's anyway, some do. Greyface will have to speak for Discordians.)

[Bigroza]

Discordianism interests me.....but I just don't know if I have the time to sort it all out. It would seem that it could tie in quite nicely with general Pagan beliefs.

[globjgtyf]

Discordianism interests me.....but I just don't know if I have the time to sort it all out. It would seem that it could tie in quite nicely with general Pagan beliefs.

There isn't anything to sort out. Trying to 'sort it all out' is the source of the problems we've gotten ourselves into over the ages. That's the point.

We as a species, tend to think that we're here to do 'something' 'important'. Mostly because for some foolish reason we think: "There has to be some meaning to all of this. There has to be a reason I'm here."

It's very unfortunate that we can't wake up and see that 'being here' is a good enough reason.

Instead of 'Living' we have to invent problems to overcome and "Grand Schemes" to attend to.

I for one, am happy with just eating, pooping, breathing, reproducing, etc. I don't need an ulterior motive to continue doing those things. I am an animal, nothing more, nothing less. Granted, an animal that can shoot a gun, use a computer, write a symphony. Whatever. But those things don't make me 'divine'. They just make me another species of animal. Those are just the things I do while I do those important things: metabolism, reproduction etc...
And when I die, it'll be because my life is over. Not because some 'high and mighty' deity says 'it's time to come home'... That's just plain ridiculous!

You see, most of us Discordians could be thought of as Extremist Agnostics. Not that we have a problem with Religion, we just think it's really stupid, and infinitely hilarious. Fairy tales, that people would kill each other over, and use to control each other. How freaking absurd can you get?

And because most of us are onery, well, you have Discordianism....



Life is a big confusing mess. All of 'creation' is a big confusing mess.
Instead of 'getting on with it', humans have decided we 'have to understand and control it'.

It's really stupid of us, if I do say so myself....


We don't have to 'civilize' ourselves. We were free when we lived in the caves. The moment we left, we started fighting to gain that back. It's really funny, because we've always been free. We're just too blinded by our 'humanity' to realize it. And the fact that we really act no different than Og the cave man. We just have better tools... For all of our civilized posturing, we end up bashing each other over the head with a metaphorical club. We have not evolved, though I'm beginning to think we are finally starting to.

[yurawerj]

Well met!

[13spebampiliece]

I may be half way to Discordianism already. Whenever I hear "everything happens for a reason," which seems to be a prevalent belief among many Pagans, I tend to think that maybe many things just happen. We were never meant to know if there was a reason for everything that happens anyway. There is also not necessarily a reason for everything happening, and we're vain in thinking that we can break down and define everything that happens even to the point of applying such...um....er....reasoning. Or in the words of Douglas Adams, "anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen." Or something along those lines.

[Nurfzerne]

Interesting post Rake. But all I will say at this point is, "Sh!t happens."

Once we learn to just clean our shoe after stepping in it and continue walking the sooner we can continue with our journey.

Peace & Love!

[Anneskobsen]

What is God?

It appears that question has to be answered before anyone can answer the atheist vs. agnostic question.

Some years ago, most particularly in the Bible Belt, it was pretty easy to say whether you believed what the preacher said about God.

For the bunch of us in this online tribe of heretics the answer seems pretty clear. I don't think anyone here would agree with that Bible Belt preacher's definition of God.

I'd guess that most of us would disagree with most people's ideas of what God(s) might be like that are floating around out there.

Considering what we now know about the universe - how big, complex & strange - it's hard to reconcile the ideas of God as creator of the universe and God as an entity that cares about little old me & you.

I have trouble with the idea that God has infinite power, yet is unable to communicate with us in a clear and unmistakeable way. It would certainly save a lot of confusion if there were just a few more clues. The Bible Belt Preacher's ideas just don't make sense to me.

Still I have a feeling there is something there. Does that make me agnostic?

In the context of the Bible Belt Preacher, my adopting the tag of agnostic would imply that I think he just might be right after all. That's certainly not true.

Here, in the context of this tribe of free-thinking individualists, I don't think the terms agnostic and atheist really have useful meaning.

I agree. It does not make sense to me either. If you ask me if I believe in the Old Testament version of a God sitting in the clouds raining punishment on everyone, I guess I would be athiest about that. If one is asking do I think there is a God or something in some way that has an influence on things, then I probably say yes. I can accept that some may think of this as madness but then again we all appear mad in someone somewheres eyes.
For me the issue is about being able to recognise our own way of thinking. Can I prove someone who believes, or is an agnostic, or an athiest is wrong? I would have to say No.
The trouble for me starts when people cannot accept the other person's way of thinking or give it a right to exist in the same ways as we value our own. I personally do not have an issue with an athiest, Agnostic or a believer (in whatever) as long as people recognise that all is not definitely one way or another. I feel the discription of whether some one is open or closed to the others view as more important. For me, believing in this or that has many shades grey rather that clear distinctions.

[ZZChristopher]

I agree. It does not make sense to me either. If you ask me if I believe in the Old Testament version of a God sitting in the clouds raining punishment on everyone, I guess I would be athiest about that. If one is asking do I think there is a God or something in some way that has an influence on things, then I probably say yes.

Yes, the whole idea of God seems rather confused.

Seems to me that when people were going through hard times they saw God as harsh and as the one responsible for the punishment they were experiencing.

When people had it good they saw God as benevolent and approving.

So, is God responsible for both misfortune and good luck?

If so, what are we supposed to do?

[BartRonalds]

Good point. For me, the concept of God is a personal thing but many of the precepts that the church attach's to God affects so many others in a very negative way. I do not think having faith is an issue. Being dogmatic about it by pushing bigotry, judgement, or unprovable dogma onto people is an issue because it affects their personal choice to think too.

[epPtsDno]

I agree. Frankly, I think it's offensive to have someone push their beliefs on you.

Mostly, I think it's people with huge control issues that push their religion (or politics) the hardest.

[FelicitaJ]

There is a lot of positive reinforcers for pushing a religion. One gets community and praise for one's efforts and failings and support. It is a shame that in some areas people would feel lost without their organisation, church or what ever to back them. It often takes real courage to stand up and say you disagree with something that are saying and many cannot make that step. Thus organisations continue to build whilst others exploit it to their own needs. Trouble is many do not know they are doing this.

I guess its a loss of community in society and conditional love is seen as better than no love.
Until we find other ways like the ULC to offer alternatives then I guess it will go on. Some find such steps hard to make.

[new-nickname-zanovo]

. However I refuse to believe that people have some sort of brain damage simply because they don't believe in a deity. I'm very far from being an atheist but I believe they have the right, as everyone does, to believe what they wish.

I agree. Well put (IMO).

[xtrudood]

I agree. It does not make sense to me either.
I can accept that some may think of this as madness but then again we all appear mad in someone somewheres eyes.

That "madness" is what forces us to develop our knowledge and belief, along with it's old friend 'conflict'.

It's not supposed to make sense. If it did, what would you do with your time?

"Why are we here?"

[CatLuvkaLover]

I had to go back and read this thread from the beginning.

I find that in theory, there are very few practicle differences between Atheists and Agnostics; Only nuances that people argue about endlessly. On a social level, there is one difference. I find that Agnostics tend to be less angry than Atheists.

Jonathan Lobl

[boleroman]

I find that Agnostics tend to be less angry than Atheists.

Jonathan Lobl

Not that I have been maintaining statistics or anything but I think that would be a generalized truth.

Atheists get picked on a lot but most people don't understand what an agnostic is so they leave them alone.

Peace & Love!

[dafodilkemmy]

This is true. For years, I experimented with different labels. When I said I was an Atheist, I got into a lot of arguments. When I said I was Agnostic, people did just let it go.

The question here is cause and effect. Does use of the Atheist label make people angry -- or are angry people attracted to the Atheist label?

By and large, I do find Agnostics more easy going. They definetly have a better sense of humor. Consider the web site for The First Church of Atheism. All very serious. Then, there is the website of the Apathetic Agnostic Church: "We don't know and we don't care." The Agnostics are definetly more fun. Life is too short to be angry all the time.

Jonathan Lobl

[Frodogzzz]

There is a tendency here to make simple things hard. The word "Atheist" just means "without Theism." An Atheist could be somebody who lacks Theistic belief -- pure and simple.

Jonathan Lobl