[Seerseraxlils]

No,,you posted "Over the years, many an over zealous missionary has tried giving me "testimony" and "witness" in order to save my soul. If their subjective experience was not enough to change me -- why would my subjective experience be proof to anybody else?"

I'm asking proof of what?

How can someone else experience YOUR experience?

Rhetorical question. They never can.

Why bother trying to make it so?

And since the only thing you have is YOUR experience, ever, then what's the point in trying to change this?

Even if there were absolutes, each person's experience of that would be different. Always.

[pitoufsd]

Yes. If there is nothing to be done then we should do nothing. Thus the suggestion: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Peace & Love!

[Liaptoono]

Yes. If there is nothing to be done then we should do nothing. Thus the suggestion: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Peace & Love!

Except that meditation is doing something. Sometimes, we must listen to the silence.

What is the sound of an emoticon clapping?

Jonathan Lobl

[crazuMovies]

Except that meditation is doing something. Sometimes, we must listen to the silence.

What is the sound of an emoticon clapping?

Jonathan Lobl

My meditation is designed around doing nothing - clearing the mind. Yes, there are those who use meditation for a specific purpose.

Hehehe. An emoticon clapping. Can we add sound to the emoticons? I don't see why not.

Peace & Love!

[Vomazoono]

My meditation is designed around doing nothing - clearing the mind. Yes, there are those who use meditation for a specific purpose.

Hehehe. An emoticon clapping. Can we add sound to the emoticons? I don't see why not.

Peace & Love!

I meant it as a parody of the old Zen koan. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Sometimes the attempt at humor fails.

Jonathan Lobl

[MFSSCW2c]

I meant it as a parody of the old Zen koan. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Sometimes the attempt at humor fails.

Jonathan Lobl

Jonathan, I knew exactly what you were talking about. Hehehe. It's just that I caught the ball and wanted to run with it.

Peace & Love!

[Caregrasy]

Jonathan, I knew exactly what you were talking about. Hehehe. It's just that I caught the ball and wanted to run with it.

Peace & Love!

Just so.

Jonathan Lobl

[ProomoSam]

Back to the topic.

I find that personal experience leads me to a "sense of things." Not exactly "faith," but a strong feeling about what is and is not. I don't believe that this can be conveyed to another. All I can do is explain what I was doing that led to my feeling. If someone wishes to do similar things, they may or may not end up with similar conclusions.

Plenty of people do reiki and meditate. They do not end up with my perspectives at all. They take the same experience and end up someplace totally different. It's a crapshoot.

Jonathan Lobl

[UvgpXK0J]

Back to the topic.

I find that personal experience leads me to a "sense of things." Not exactly "faith," but a strong feeling about what is and is not. I don't believe that this can be conveyed to another. All I can do is explain what I was doing that led to my feeling. If someone wishes to do similar things, they may or may not end up with similar conclusions.

Plenty of people do reiki and meditate. They do not end up with my perspectives at all. They take the same experience and end up someplace totally different. It's a crapshoot.

Jonathan Lobl

True. How we percieve our personal experiences are personal. There are far too many variables involved to even begin to understand the causes of the variances in perception of identical experiences.

I guesss that is one of the things that makes us all special.

Peace & Love!

[Sxedlawb]

True. How we percieve our personal experiences are personal. There are far too many variables involved to even begin to understand the causes of the variances in perception of identical experiences.

I guesss that is one of the things that makes us all special.

Peace & Love!

That isn't confined to the mystical. Scientists will look at the results from a specific experiment, and draw opposite conclusions.

Jonthan Lobl

[VXHLrsO1]

That isn't confined to the mystical. Scientists will look at the results from a specific experiment, and draw opposite conclusions.

Jonthan Lobl

Agree. I meant that generalized statement to apply to everyone and all aspects of the universe.

Peace & Love!

[PriernPayorse]

it would be nice if it did,but as most of us know,that is not the case.
i can/have make a blanket statement concerning something,but it will be precived differently by those hearing it(or reading it)to some degree.therefore in reality,it cannot apply to everyone and everything in the universe.

(shame on you jimbob)

[majestictwelve]

(shame on you jimbob)

No shame here Baby!!!

Peace & Love!

[fil_nurser]

I recently watched a new movie. Since this thread is not about movies, I won't say which one it was. I hated that movie. My friends loved it. It was the same movie. I saw it with them. Everybody else who saw that same movie seems to think it was great.

So much for shared perceptions. We had the same objective experience and came to opposite conclusions.

Jonathan Lobl

[DiatryDal]

it would be nice if it did,but as most of us know,that is not the case.
i can/have make a blanket statement concerning something,but it will be precived differently by those hearing it(or reading it)to some degree.therefore in reality,it cannot apply to everyone and everything in the universe.

(shame on you jimbob)

That's essentially what I say here anytime someone insults an entire group, race or religion. Blanket statements can seldom be documented and backed up, they won't apply in every situation, everytime.

So, like most people, I expect my personally related experiences to be accepted at face value. Statements from other people need to have scientific evidence. Unless they'd like to sign a waiver.....

[Nosmas]

Oh no I don't want to stop anyone from believing what ever they like. Only time I like to get all worked up is when people use their belief or should I say the belief of someone else in order to take advantage of them economicly/physicaly or mentaly.

You want to believe your magic works thats fine we would only have a problem if your telling some young gullable woman she is being attacked by dark forces and she needs you to cast 'protective' magic on her at the cost of $300... Then I have serious issues.

But people can always rationalize their actions. If your magic works, then $300 is cheap compared to years and years of prescription meds.

Or you wanted your special version of physics taught to young children without having to supply the same level of evidence as proper science. But if people feel that they have been given special knowledge from their god, most don't want to keep it to themselves. You are saying people can believe whatever they want to believe as long as they don't act on it. But some people's religion makes them act positively, helping others. It's rather scarey to think how many people would not bother to help out someone else if they didn't believe that they were getting an eternal reward out of it.



I must say so far in my studies Taoism, if they really do change their beliefs to conform with mankinds pool of amassed knowledge, is the most sensible belief system I have yet seen even more so.. in my opinion.. then buddhism.
. Since Taoism has survived in China, one the the most ruthlessly authoritarian nations on earth, I look on some aspects of it with a jaundiced eye. For instance, the concept of "wu wei" which suggests not struggling or taking the path of least resistance. At the same time, wu wei is mentioned with the martial arts which require a lot of training and struggle. So it appears to be a weasely concept which can be bent to fit the uses of those in authority.

[kubekniekubek]

Since Taoism has survived in China, one the the most ruthlessly authoritarian nations on earth, I look on some aspects of it with a jaundiced eye. For instance, the concept of "wu wei" which suggests not struggling or taking the path of least resistance. At the same time, wu wei is mentioned with the martial arts which require a lot of training and struggle. So it appears to be a weasely concept which can be bent to fit the uses of those in authority.

Hi Maxx,

You knew I would have to respond to this, didn't you?

The following is from Wikipedie and is a rather good, but brief, explanation of "wu wei":

Wu wei is an important concept of Taoism (Daoism), that involves knowing when to act and when not to act. Another perspective to this is that "Wu Wei" means natural action - as planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it; or as trees grow, they "do", but without "doing". Thus knowing when (and how) to act is not knowledge in the sense that one would think "now" is the right time to do "this", but rather just doing it, doing the natural thing.

Wu may be translated as not have or without; Wei may be translated as do, act, serve as, govern or effort. The literal meaning of Wu Wei is "without action" and is often included in the paradox wei wu wei: "action without action" or "effortless doing". The practice of wu wei and the efficacy of wei wu wei are fundamental tenets in Chinese thought and have been mostly emphasized by the Taoist school. The aim of wu wei is to achieve a state of perfect equilibrium, or alignment with the Tao, and, as a result, obtain an irresistible form of "soft and invisible" power.

There is another less commonly referenced sense of wu wei; "action that does not involve struggle or excessive effort". In this instance, Wu means "without" and Wei means "effort". The concept of "effortless action" is a part of Taoist Internal martial arts such as Tai chi, Baguazhang and Xing Yi.

So what we have is 'action without alterior motive', natural action, doing what needs be done. And yes, it is also 'effotless action' because it is a natural reaction to a given condition (you strike/I block). (Of course, then I place you in a condition where you cannot strike again.)

"Wu wei" has never meant to "do nothing" as many of the Hippies interpreted it during the sixties and early seventies. Their condition was different and really had nothing to do with Taoism.

Peace & Love!

[adolfadsermens]

JimBob wrote:Wu wei" has never meant to "do nothing" as many of the Hippies interpreted it during the sixties and early seventies. Their condition was different and really had nothing to do with Taoism.

Maxx: I didn't say it meant doing nothing. I said it meant following the path of least resistance like the roots of a tree that will grow around a rock in the soil. And I still hold that it worked quite well for authoritarian China just as Confucianism did. I haven't heard of Taoists being persecuted in China.

[MeatteCen]

Hi Maxx,

I'm trying to go where it is you wish to go with this.

Yes, I do hold to the concept of following the path of least resistance. But, okay, I do sometimes take the other paths just to see what is there. (Who knows, maybe some unkissed beauty?)

But generally speaking, the path of least resistance is (generally) the most natural path (action) to take.

Peace & Love!

[bestworkother]

Doing nothing is an interesting concept. There is much to be found in stillness. That is why we have meditation.

Jonathan Lobl