[DexOnenlyCymn]

Hi Johathan,

Oh crud. I'm still an Agnostic.

That's okay, Jonathan. If it helps you be at peace with the rest of the universe then it is good.

Does an impersonal God equate to God -- Or is the impersonal God just a misnamed natural process?
Jonathan Lobl

The answer to your question is "Yes".

Of course, that is just my understanding and it may not have anything to do with reality.

Peace & Love!

[Blellurgews]

Not Atheism per se -- the Atheist label. These words -- Atheist, Agnostic, Deist -- carry tons of invisible assumptions. I'm in the process of examining my own invisible assumptions. Thank you for your answer. I'm going to have to think about this as well.

Greyface: You have earned a blackbelt in logic.

Irrational logic perhaps...lol

I do agree about invisible assumptions. Also, I hate labels-they tend to cause over-generalization. Not through any fault of their own, and not through any 'wrongdoing' on our part necessarily.

Unfortunately, it seems the only ways to fix that problem is to either not use the labels, in which case no one will know what you're talking about (which isn't a bad thing, if that's your goal...lol); or to start tacking more and more words on tho the label.

Case in point: ""What kind of Atheist are you?"" LOL

Does an impersonal God equate to God -- Or is the impersonal God just a misnamed natural process? (Thank you, Jim Bob, Greyface, Rev Mark.)

Oh crud. I'm still an Agnostic.

The only answer I can give you is: maybe. It depends on how you see it. Remember also, it could be both.

P.S. I'm still an Agnostic/Ignostic too...

[GtmFeqJJ]

At this point, I think the problem is that mountain of invisible assumptions that float below awareness; like an iceberg with only the tip exposed for examination.

I remember the words of a Buddhist monk. "The gods are illusory, but if we call apon them for assistance, they will help us anyway."

Is the One part of the natural order or the supernatural? Is there a supernatural at all? I don't have the strength for a new round of definitions. At the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter.

There is the motto of the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic. (UCTAA) "We don't know and we don't care."

Words of wisdom.

Jonathan Lobl

[BWJfEkOB]

Is the One part of the natural order or the supernatural? Is there a supernatural at all? I don't have the strength for a new round of definitions. At the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter.

Jonathan Lobl

It is my understanding that One (and Oneness) are of the natural order. No. There is no supernatural. Everything that has ever happened was totally natural and everything that will happen in the future shall be totally natural.

However, there have been and there will be events that we do not fully understand or that we do not understand in some part. That does not mean the the event was supernatural. It only means that we do not understand.

But yes, I would agree that it really doesn't matter because reality is what it is regardless of our illusions and dilusions.

Peace & Love!

[Super-Luser]

Well, Jonathan. No, I would never say that Tao created anything. Tao is everything. In my example above I was using the Jewish concept of the creation.

Now, to your question.

Chapter 25

1. There was something formed out of chaos,
2. That was born before Heaven and Earth.
3. Quiet and Still! Pure and deep!
4. It stands on its own and does not change.
5. It can be regarded as the mother of Heaven and Earth.
6. I do not yet know its name:
7. I "style" it "the Way."
8. Were I forced to give it a name, I would call it "the Great."

Chapter 42

1. The Way gave birth to the One.
2. The One gave birth to the Two.
3. The Two gave birth to the Three.
4. And the Three gave birth to the ten thousand things.

#40

All things in the cosmos arise from being.
Being arises from non-being.

Jonathan Lobl

[lkastonidwedsrer]

#40

All things in the cosmos arise from being.
Being arises from non-being.

Jonathan Lobl

Yep!

All things (physical manifestations) arise from being (the process of manifestation).

The process of manifestation (and therefore the many physical manifestations) arise from non-being (Potential [Potential being what I call Wu but what science calls the primordial gases and Dark Matter] and Chi).

Or, I suppose that we could look back even further and say that non-being represents the universe prior to the Big Bang (when all was Chaos; a time before time). (No, I can't say a time before the processes began because even the state of the universe prior to the Big Bang was a result of the processes of Nature.)

And for Ken's benefit I will add that the "processes of Nature" could also be called the "laws of physics".

Peace & Love!

[zU8KbeIU]

Yep!

All things (physical manifestations) arise from being (the process of manifestation).

The process of manifestation (and therefore the many physical manifestations) arise from non-being (Potential [Potential being what I call Wu but what science calls the primordial gases and Dark Matter] and Chi).

Or, I suppose that we could look back even further and say that non-being represents the universe prior to the Big Bang (when all was Chaos; a time before time). (No, I can't say a time before the processes began because even the state of the universe prior to the Big Bang was a result of the processes of Nature.)

And for Ken's benefit I will add that the "processes of Nature" could also be called the "laws of physics".

Peace & Love!

According to my limited understanding of Quantum Mechanics -- the geometry of empty space caused the laws of physics to develop. Literally, non-being caused being.

Nothing supernatural there. Just nature.


Jonathan Lobl

[pharmablogger]

Nothing supernatural there. Just nature.


Jonathan Lobl

And it is my belief that were we able to thoroughly investigate every event that has ever happened and that we had the knowledge to understand our findings, we would find that there is nothing, nor has there ever been, any event in the history of the universe that has been supernatural.

All the answers can be found in Nature. We just have to learn how to find the answers.

Peace & Love!

[Pyuvjzwf]

And ask the right questions....

[VipInoLo]

And ask the right questions....

Thank you, Greyface. I believe I have spoke on this a number of times before. Always good to remind ourselves of this important thought though.

Peace & Love!

[asypecresty]

Thank you, Greyface. I believe I have spoke on this a number of times before. Always good to remind ourselves of this important thought though.

Peace & Love!

Yes, that's why I did it. To me, asking questions is much more important than answering them.

Mainly because I understand that when I decide 'I know' is probably the moment I stopped thinking.

I want to know the answers, because they cause more questions, and thus create more wonder.

[JeremyBalll]

Now for one of those questions:

I was asked by a friend ; Did I believed in a "higher power?" It left me wondering. Does the "higher" in "higher power" equate to something supernatural? If the power is part of Nature, what is "higher" about it?

(Unless of course the power has been smoking something. )

Jonathan Lobl

[Ltftujkg]

Now for one of those questions:

I was asked by a friend ; Did I believed in a "higher power?" It left me wondering. Does the "higher" in "higher power" equate to something supernatural? If the power is part of Nature, what is "higher" about it?

(Unless of course the power has been smoking something. )

Jonathan Lobl

Hi Jonathan,

We have a thread going on about that right now. You are welcome to add you view, you know.

Okay, first, no smoking around here so understand that this would not ba a part of the equation.

I consider Nature to be a 'higher power' than I am, first of all because, if it were not for the processes of Nature here on this planet I would not exist. The processes of Nature allowed for my birth. (We won't discuss here whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.)

Secondly, whenever I have tried to go against the processes of Nature I have always missed the mark. If it is not naturally possible then there is a good chance that it just flat is not possible.

Then too, mankind, in general, goes about destroying the natural balance in Nature and then we wonder why things get screwed up. We cut down too many trees without replanting and this messes up the environment in so many different ways.

And then there is the immediate effects Nature hase on us. Some folks here are being frozen and snowed in while others like myself are walking around bare-footed with only shorts. We have to adjust our why of life according to what Nature gives us.

So yes, I consider Nature to be a 'higher power' than I am.

Peace & Love!

[MontyP@thon]

Hi Jonathan,

We have a thread going on about that right now. You are welcome to add you view, you know.

Okay, first, no smoking around here so understand that this would not ba a part of the equation.

I consider Nature to be a 'higher power' than I am, first of all because, if it were not for the processes of Nature here on this planet I would not exist. The processes of Nature allowed for my birth. (We won't discuss here whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.)

Secondly, whenever I have tried to go against the processes of Nature I have always missed the mark. If it is not naturally possible then there is a good chance that it just flat is not possible.

Then too, mankind, in general, goes about destroying the natural balance in Nature and then we wonder why things get screwed up. We cut down too many trees without replanting and this messes up the environment in so many different ways.

And then there is the immediate effects Nature hase on us. Some folks here are being frozen and snowed in while others like myself are walking around bare-footed with only shorts. We have to adjust our why of life according to what Nature gives us.

So yes, I consider Nature to be a 'higher power' than I am.

Peace & Love!

Since we are part of nature -- instead of outside nature -- how can nature be a higher power? By definition, something that is super-natural is outside of nature. That is what got me thinking about my friend's question in the firstplace.

What does it mean to believe in a "higher power?" Higher than what? Outside of what?

Jonathan Lobl

[Immonnaornach]

Since we are part of nature -- instead of outside nature -- how can nature be a higher power? By definition, something that is super-natural is outside of nature. That is what got me thinking about my friend's question in the firstplace.

What does it mean to believe in a "higher power?" Higher than what? Outside of what?
Jonathan Lobl

Hi Jonathan,

Fair question and I do get called on this now and again. A quick paraphrase from the Tao-Te Chinhg: Man follows Earth, Earth follows Heaven, Heaven follows Tao, and Tao follows Tzujan. Tzujan being the processes of Nature - the Universe. Tzujan is what I refer to as the processes of Nature.

Nature is the product of the processes. You and I are separate products of these processes. We are separate by a part of the whole. Just like a basket of apples. Each apple is an individual apple but they are all sold as a basket of apples.

Yes, indeed, we are a part of Nature. But we are, all things, separate parts of the same basket. But then, here we are talking about the product produced by the 'processes of Nature'.

Our sun must be viewed as a higher power than is earth because without the sun the earth would not exist but, the sun could exist without the earth or any planets.

Now, don't get me wrong. I do not personify the 'processes of Nature' but I recognize that I would not exist were it not for these processes. And even in normal life activities, if I try to defy the 'Laws of Nature' there is a good chance I will no longer exist. In other words, if I try to fly off the top of a twenty story building I am pretty sure I won't be successful and my life will end.

Okay. Yes, it is true that there are many Taoists who say they are God. In other words, if Tao is God and I am Tao then reason suggests that I am God. I don't do this - I actually think it is a little bit of an ego trip. I already have a hard time keeping my ego in check.

Peace & Love!

[sherrferris]

Hi Jonathan,

Fair question and I do get called on this now and again. A quick paraphrase from the Tao-Te Chinhg: Man follows Earth, Earth follows Heaven, Heaven follows Tao, and Tao follows Tzujan. Tzujan being the processes of Nature - the Universe. Tzujan is what I refer to as the processes of Nature.

Nature is the product of the processes. You and I are separate products of these processes. We are separate by a part of the whole. Just like a basket of apples. Each apple is an individual apple but they are all sold as a basket of apples.

Yes, indeed, we are a part of Nature. But we are, all things, separate parts of the same basket. But then, here we are talking about the product produced by the 'processes of Nature'.

Our sun must be viewed as a higher power than is earth because without the sun the earth would not exist but, the sun could exist without the earth or any planets.

Now, don't get me wrong. I do not personify the 'processes of Nature' but I recognize that I would not exist were it not for these processes. And even in normal life activities, if I try to defy the 'Laws of Nature' there is a good chance I will no longer exist. In other words, if I try to fly off the top of a twenty story building I am pretty sure I won't be successful and my life will end.

Okay. Yes, it is true that there are many Taoists who say they are God. In other words, if Tao is God and I am Tao then reason suggests that I am God. I don't do this - I actually think it is a little bit of an ego trip. I already have a hard time keeping my ego in check.

Peace & Love!

Maybe. I am not the ocean. Perhaps a wave in the ocean? The wave is not seperate from the ocean. One wave does not make an ocean. Neither does one drop of water. If I examine that one drop of water, I will learn much about the ocean.

Jonathan Lobl

[HaseBeceDeemy]

Then too, mankind, in general, goes about destroying the natural balance in Nature and then we wonder why things get screwed up. We cut down too many trees without replanting and this messes up the environment in so many different ways.

Wouldn't our destruction of said balance be a Natural Process as well then?

[Roamsaffots]

Wouldn't our destruction of said balance be a Natural Process as well then?

Of course. There is nothing more natural than greed and stupidity.

Jonathan Lobl

[f6HLLFcw]

Wouldn't our destruction of said balance be a Natural Process as well then?

I think that Jonathan presented a better answer than I ever could.

But I will say this: It doesn't have to be that way.

Peace & Love!

[furillo]

Maybe. I am not the ocean. Perhaps a wave in the ocean? The wave is not seperate from the ocean. One wave does not make an ocean. Neither does one drop of water. If I examine that one drop of water, I will learn much about the ocean.

Jonathan Lobl

Now you are talking like a number of Taoists I have known.

Yes, we each are a drop (sometimes called a drip) of water, doing our own thing while falling to the earth.

Some drops supply nutrients to animal and plant growth and then evaporate, some fall on dry earth and evaporate, some collect with others and form streams and these streams form rivers that flow to the oceans. But even these will evaporate over time and begin a new life in the atmosphere and become a new drop - destiny unknown.

It is said that one does not need to travel the world to know the world. All one needs do is look out one's window. The world will reveal itself.

And yes, in Taoist thought the ocean is both the end and the beginning of every drop. Each drop having its own life; this life being different from all other drops but while it is in the ocean it is the same as all other drops.

I have no idea where I am going with this. Hehehe.

Peace & Love!