[Pdarassenko]

Or listed anywhere. Ever.

[Cvo1iRT0]

I'll just second what HG said: If you're not going to contribute anything but insults, stay away from the forum. From a guy who's beliefs pretty much echo Russ', you can also start your own thread to support whatever your beliefs may be. Let the Christians have their thread, let Jews have theirs, let the Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus have theirs. That's the nice thing about the Forum/Thread arrangement: You can choose your participation in your topic of interest.

The trolls can find interest in The Lounge.

[LillyPlay]

That's cute how everyone is suddenly *so* diplomatic when it comes to religion. This thread will be fun to revisit when y'all are going bat**** crazy in Politics Land.

[Cwvnyfsj]

Hi, Russ,

You’re missing something huge when you wrote: “See, this is where you sort of go off the rails. The life and times of Jesus were reported by humans, well after the fact. Having been reported on by humans myself (not that I'm comparing myself to Jesus at all), I keenly understand how humans can get it wrong.”

Do you think the following words were made up—not spoken by Jesus? The Apostle John reported Jesus as saying the following: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

Now you can say Jesus never existed and that there is no Holy Spirit, but God wanted us to have His Words. Jesus said that heaven and earth would pass away—but not His Words. You can say that Jesus did not have the ability to preserve His Words, but saying something does not mean it’s true. I could tell you that you do not know how to breathe air, but you know you do.

Then you wrote, “Add to that the 2,000-year string of other humans (not always with the best intentions, as is the human condition) manipulating and choosing which particular accounts of those events current humans should read and adhere to, and your literalist faith is lost on me.”

Yes, but when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, they revealed the amazing accuracy of the OT handed down for centuries. God is able to preserve His Word, using feeble human beings. He used me to bring children and grandchildren into the world, and what transpired was way beyond my understanding—how the little babies developed for 9 months, etc.

Then you wrote: “I'm glad you find peace in it, Paul. I find some peace in it as well. But there is no way it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.”

Jesus said He was and is the Truth. He’s the whole thing! He said that the Old Testament bears witness of Him (“You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me”—John 5:39).

Take, for example, Genesis 16:7 13: “The angel of the LORD (Jesus before the incarnation) found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” // “I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered. Then the angel of the LORD told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” The angel added, “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.” The angel of the LORD also said to her: “You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”

This is the first explicit reference in Scripture to Jehovah’s Messenger, “The angel of the LORD.” “Angel” means messenger, and “LORD” (every letter capitalized) translates the Tetragrammaton, the inexpressible four-letter name of God, YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah). As a shepherd might, Jehovah’s Messenger found a woman by a well in a wilderness (v. 7).

The whole scene is not unlike another in the New Testament. This time the great Shepherd encountered another woman at a different well (John 4). Just as Jesus is both distinct from God the Father and yet identified with Him, so the Messenger in Genesis 16 is both distinct from and yet identified with God.

In verse 10, the “angel,” speaking for Himself, said, “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.” Only God can multiply seed (cf. Gen. 22:17 and 26:24). In verse 13 we learn that the one speaking to Hagar was none other than the LORD (Jehovah) Himself.

The biblical doctrine that God is more than one person finds support in this Old Testament passage.

I am not clear on why physical death is feared. I s'pose those who don't live a good life may fear that some sort of punishment follows, and that is what organized religion capitalizes on. I have no fear of physical death. I don't go around looking for it, but I don't fear it. In fact many people - by the time it comes - actually look forward to it.

(My own particular belief in an afterlife & a beforelife and a natural system of karmic adjudication and adjustment notwithstanding.)



I claim to know no more about any of this than anyone, past or present.



See, this is where you sort of go off the rails. The life and times of Jesus were reported by humans, well after the fact. Having been reported on by humans myself (not that I'm comparing myself to Jesus at all), I keenly understand how humans can get it wrong. Add to that the 2,000-year string of other humans (not always with the best intentions, as is the human condition) manipulating and choosing which particular accounts of those events current humans should read and adhere to, and your literalist faith is lost on me.

I'm glad you find peace in it, Paul. I find some peace in it as well. But there is no way it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

[ambiddetcat]

Well, there have been two sensible posts since my last email. First, “my buddy” Sean wrote: “No, no - it took us this long to get Humber over here. It is like a touch of home. I don't know about anyone else, but I am glad he's here.”

Thanks, Sean. I realize the word “buddy” may seem like something of a stretch, but in contrast to others, your post was welcome.

I will not lie, Paul: you and I disagree about matters of faith almost as strongly as is possible, to the point where I think your views are delusion in many respects. And yet I was not being facetious when I said I was glad to see you - I find you interesting. Your views enrich my world and allow me to explore ideas that would never normally occur to me. So if you consider me a buddy, I am proud to embrace that, even if we will never come to common ground on the fundamentals of our worldview. Forgive me of course, if I am occasionally flippant, or even sometimes outright blasphemous, in response, but please know that I do so with a genuine affection for you and your views.

[detskpit]

Do you think the following words were made up—not spoken by Jesus? The Apostle John reported Jesus as saying the following: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

Now you can say Jesus never existed and that there is no Holy Spirit, but God wanted us to have His Words. Jesus said that heaven and earth would pass away—but not His Words. You can say that Jesus did not have the ability to preserve His Words, but saying something does not mean it’s true. I could tell you that you do not know how to breathe air, but you know you do.

See, you're getting off the rails again.

First, the fact that someone was reported to have said something and also reported to have said that everything he said would be preserved intact and that said reporting was done years after the fact (even leaving out the 2000 years of human editing) produces much room for skepticism. You accept it all on faith. I simply cannot.

Second, nothing I have said here nor what I believe denies that Jesus existed or that there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit. The difference is that I do not limit myself to what is presented in modern man's "Holy Bible" while trying to make sense of it all.

When I was young, I was taught John 3:16 repeatedly. Hence, when I went to the altar at 14 to "accept Jesus as my personal savior" I believed it was the logical step to take to insure my eternal soul is protected (not to mention that "everyone else was doing it"). But years later, it occurs to me that the words "whosoever believeth in him" doesn't necessarily mean what I thought it did when I was 14, and might instead refer to someone who lives their life in the general ways of Jesus' teachings, regardless of whether they make a similar pilgrimage to the altar.

Yet the folks who still gather in the building where I did that will claim that without that sort of pilgrimage, you will BURN IN HELL. That's just man-made hogwash. As is the exclusion from "heaven" of all who are not "Christians."

The Creator blessed us with brains that are capable of coming to our own conclusions of what our particular connection with him/her/it is. I recall that even such a personal relationship was once frowned upon by the keepers of the Bible, as it threatened the power and status of the church and its leaders of the time.

While the religious teachings of my childhood were helpful, they are not the whole story. Nor is skepticism or a quest for the bigger picture a "temptation from Satan," which it has been branded by some folks who hold a similar level of faith as you appear to.

I equate Bible literalists to those who are satisifed with working day in and day out for someone else: If it makes them content, great, but it's just not something I can stomach. In my book, the Creator wants us all to be all that we can be, including how we each develop our concept of him/her/it.

[JJascaxal]

Dear Russ,

You speak about “2000 years of human editing.” This is just not so! The current translations of the NT go back to documents that are much closer to the originals than 2,000 years. Some documents, I believe, go back to within 20 years. Have you ever studied textual criticism? Read Princeton’s Bruce Metzger on this subject. He wrote an excellent book about it.

You wrote: “I do not limit myself to what is presented in modern man's "Holy Bible" while trying to make sense of it all.”

But modern translations are even more faithful to the originals than Bibles we had hundreds of years ago--because they are based on more and older manuscript evidence.

You added, “Yet the folks who still gather in the building where I did that will claim that without that sort of pilgrimage, you will BURN IN HELL. That's just man-made hogwash.”

I’m sympathetic to your concern here. Going down an isle saves no one. “Going down” is an action—a “work". No one gets into heaven for works. Jesus' “work” is our only hope.

Please don’t focus on what you did at age 14. I agree, that that action can’t save you. Only Jesus can save you. Your faith must focus on Him and what he did on the cross—not what you did at age 14.

Genesis 18 is another passage that points to Jesus. I quote parts: “The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground….“Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.”…He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree….The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground….Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.”

This language is similar to Genesis 16, the one previously referred to. Three personages (“men”) are referred to; one is the LORD (Jehovah, cf. 18:1 2). The other two are “angels” (cf. 19:1). The LORD is in human form, having “feet” (18:4) and able to eat (18:8). These anticipate His eventual incarnation.

The final verse cited is of particular significance: “Jehovah” rained down burning sulfur “from Jehovah out of the heavens.” Two Persons of the Trinity are contemplated. Jehovah (Jesus) was raining down burning sulfur from Jehovah (the Father) out of heaven.

The idea that God is more than one Person is supported in this passage.

[lagunaEl]

I left Phillyblog before Humber showed up.

Maybe rodo/packers2 died and reincarnated as Humber? I have no idea.



Humber how do you feel about teh gays? What bout Gays For Jesus?

[trettegeani]

I left Phillyblog before Humber showed up.

Maybe rodo/packers2 died and reincarnated as Humber? I have no idea.



Humber how do you feel about teh gays? What bout Gays For Jesus?

See now, this just adds to the controversy over religion.
Myself, I don't get all into this religion crap, to me it seems to bring out all the fools and haters, as well as your typical obsessed types.

I've seen it time & time again.
I've also seen the dirty side of religion (think Fanny and her husband).

Churches are meant for worship, it's where those people can go and be with their kind to do whatever they do there.
Not spewing online... you're only asking for trouble.

[DoroKickcrofe]

Well, as a non-straight Christian (I'm certainly not an atheist) I usually smirk at all the hellfire & damnation sermons.

It's even better when it comes from a pastor who is thrice divorced.


I feel really bad for Ted Haggard. He has to wake up every morning and convince himself he's going to be a straight man today, and then go out and face the world. I think he wouldn't be so troubled if he just stops lying to himself and commits to taking care of his kids (and his wife he deceived) and opens a new ministry for those who aren't on the STRAIGHT and narrow path to come into Christianity with open, non-judgmental arms.


Instead he went to a homo-halfway house to find himself and write a book.

[samanthalueus]

Humber how do you feel about the gays? What bout Gays For Jesus?

Screw that! Let me get to like this guy.

Paul,

What do you think about the Mormons?

[nicegirlflor]

Screw that! Let me get to like this guy.

Paul,

What do you think about the Mormons?

That's a really interesting question. Paul?

[cefunonge]

Okay, I’ve got two more questions and an encouragement from my “buddy” (Sean) to answer the Mormon one.

First off, let me say that I do not intend to spend too much time on PS. I started out in a flurry, I grant you that. I did so partly to see if I was going to survive—in the sense of not being kicked off. I appreciate the fact that I have not been kicked off yet. Thank you, moderators/administrators.

Second, I do want to stay on the theme of the thread. Thus, near the and of my answering questions, I probably will continue to give OT passages that affirm the deity of the predicted Messiah (all fulfilled in Jesus).

Finally, MM wrote: “Humber how do you feel about teh gays? What bout Gays For Jesus?”

Aside from the typos, which I assume most can figure out the intent (thus did not edit), I question the use of the word “gay” for homosexual. My sister-in-law’s name is Gay, but she is married to my brother. The word, gay, also used to mean something quite different from what it has come to mean.

1 Corinthians 6:11a is helpful. It says, “And that is what some of you were.” There are many sexual sins. Rape and adultery are two, but notice the Apostle’s use of the word, “were.” These people, who had become Christians, “were” (past tense) sexual sinners.

Here is the passage in context: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

Thus, homosexual persons, like adulterers, rapists, etc. need to repent. I look on homosexual people as I look at the world. We are all sinners needing God’s forgiveness and salvation.

The Apostle went on to say, “The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”

The other question was, “What do you think about the Mormons?” Mormons have faith in the Book of Mormon (as well as in other books, such as The Pearl of Great Price). Many also may believe in the doctrine of “the blood atonement”, which is not the same as the biblical doctrine by that name. Mormons teach that that some sins are so bad that they can only be atoned for by shedding one's own blood. This denied the biblical teaching in 1 John 1:7, that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin.

Returning to the thread, Genesis 21:17-18 says, “God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

Note that instead of Jehovah’s Messenger, as in Genesis 16, we read here of God’s Messenger (“the angel of God”). Now, as earlier, the recipient of the revelation is Hagar. Only a Divine “angel” (as opposed to a creaturely one) could truthfully say, “I will make him into a great nation.” The Lord Jesus, prior to His incarnation, is in view.

[spiveker]

there's no bigger bigot sinner than you, Paul. Amen.

[beethyday]

there's no bigger bigot sinner than you, Paul. Amen.

I assume that your interpretation of that babble was that both Gays and Mormons were going to take the down elevator straight to Hell ? I got lost with the little boy on the ground and making him a nation. Does Rosetta Stone have a CD on BS ?

[VZF74G0M]

The Creator blessed us with brains that are capable of coming to our own conclusions of what our particular connection with him/her/it is. I recall that even such a personal relationship was once frowned upon by the keepers of the Bible, as it threatened the power and status of the church and its leaders of the time.

and where is it written that God said you can come up with your own conclusion about everything? That to me is "going off the rails".

[InvertPrete]

and where is it written that God said you can come up with your own conclusion about everything? That to me is "going off the rails".

Good point. In fact, it says just the opposite: “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight."

I am 67 and a Christian for close to 60 years. He has been so good and kind to me.

[favwebbb]

I assume that your interpretation of that babble was that both Gays and Mormons were going to take the down elevator straight to Hell ? I got lost with the little boy on the ground and making him a nation. Does Rosetta Stone have a CD on BS ?

[Cricequorie]

Allah Akbar

[Usesdiums]

Jesus is a devotional figure. Belief in him is a way to God, not the only way to God.

You do know Hebrews is pseudepigraphic, right?