The Color Term "Seal"
 

This has been cross posted in a few different forums in hopes of reaching a larger audience.


While I understand that the goal of breeding a dog is not for color, I am however interested in knowing of any one has done any test breeding's, or kept detailed records of their litters with "Seal" dogs.


The reason I ask is from a genetic perspective, I would like to determine what causes these faded black coats. I have been researching color genetics for a long time now, and have a pretty firm grasp on domesticated animal genetics in regards to color. Usually if we do not understand something, we test breed. However that's easier to do with Rats then Dogs. In cases like these, researchers primarily rely on records from breeders.


I asked a few people in the color genetics community what they thought caused "Seal" and here is what they said.


"This is along the lines of something I have been wondering for some time. Most likely these dogs are faded dominant black. Much like the faded blacks we see in horses. It is also possible that being homozygous or heterozygous for dominant black can affect the "shade" of the coat, however, I don't know if this is even possible."


This one was a response from Dr. Phillip Sponenberg.


"This one is confusing. The dominant black that occurs at Extension in several species (but not the dog!) is somewhat weak and leaky, and many time it will result in "off black" rather than "true black" animals. I don't know if that happens in dogs, but in my own dogs many of the black ones are "off black" and have shadows of other patterns. So, that could be all that this is. I'm not sure if it would be all that easy to figure out genetically, because that would depend on very accurate classification of entire litters at maturity. Sorry to be of so little help on this one…"


Has anyone submitted their Seal and Black dogs to UC Davis, VetGen, or AnimalGenetics for Extension, Agouti, and K-Locus testing?

It's my understanding that seal is not "faded black" but actually an extremely deep, dark brown. Blue is more of a "faded black" because it's a diluted color.

Now I could be completely wrong because color is not what I know but that's my understanding of the two.

So Seal is caused by (bb) and would then be considered a shade of Brown? This could make sense as Brown does not dilute, but just reduces the intensity of black pigment. The photos of Seal dogs looked like they had black noses and black skin. Any one have any good skin shots? Eyes, nose, underside, privates?

But brown dogs don't all have brown noses. http://www.pitbull-chat.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Do you have any photos? If we are talking about Brown (bb) in the same sense, then it should affect the dogs skin pigment. There are always exceptions to the rules in regards to shade, that's why quality photographs are always a great thing to have on hand.

Not to sound rude, but does this have any real relevance other than just for color? Or is there real research that it would affect?

It's to understand why a dog is the color it is. I am not a breeder, nor am I an owner of a bully breed. I have one dog and she's a spayed rescue. So it's not for "color" in the sense of breeding and selling. However there are scientists, such as Dr. Phillip Sponenberg, which make a career out understanding and testing color genetics.

I feel if you do have a breeding program, that it only benefits that program to know the genetics behind your animals color, specially if they are recessive for certain genes. And I am curious to know if there are any breeders out there with Seal dogs, or breeders that have produced seal dogs from non-seal parents.

My dog is a seal.

Her points are black as can be, and last shed she was very black with a reddish sheen in the sun, but after this shed..... It just does not photograph!!

Many of the hair on my dog is a different color. Not a brindle striped dog.. but the actual hair has various colors, like when you pluck a guard hair off of a GSD.

Pattern wise, she has the blackest back, ears are black and anywhere bone is close to the surface, like shin bones and even the bones in her feet, she is blacker than black. but the rest of her basecoat is the intermingled black, rich deep brown, and deep gold.

Just in the lst 6 weeks, she has added silver striped fur. If you pluck a hair it is bicolored dark and silver. They are sprinkled down her butt cheeks, up from her armpits, and to her "under ear" area.

Black nose, lips, private areas and pads.

Unfortunately she is a craigslist dog, no idea the genetics behind her.

I do find coat color genetics rather interesting, even though I would never breed dogs myself. I know that getting a true black on a standard poodle is tricky, as most have a fading gene and as the dog ages, the rich inky black color fades. It is said to have a "true black" in that breed (i.e. one that keeps the rich inky color without fading), one needs to have at least 6 generations of completely black breeding behind the dog. I don't know much for the bull breeds though.

I think Seven sins is our color Guru. He would know for sure!

Onyx is considered seal and white. She has a black nose and lips. Her private parts are not a solid color and her belly is spotted. She's always had skin problems and allergies her whole life... so she probably isn't a good subject for this topic as she's usually inflamed and reddish.
Her sire was red and white in coat color with a red nose.
Her dam was fawn and white in coat color with a black nose.
They produced seal and whites and fawn and whites.

Not the best quality pics and not sure if they'll really help, but ya lol...
http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthre...r-female-Onyx!

Slayer is seal as well..sh looks redish brown in the sunlinght but jet black most times. I have one shot of her belly showing and the flesh is not dark.

I've wondered if Ripley would be considered a seal. She isn't a true black like my Dobes, Dane, Greyhounds. She has a lot of brown highlights I call them.

It doesn't show well in pics unless I lighten them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/09...RipleyMay2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/09...mplyRipley.jpg

This was using the burst edit at 8%, but it only enhances color that is already there.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/09...yupclose-1.jpg

She has the same color as Slayer...so I mean..thats what I have been calling seal, lol. If she isn't then im mega interested too.

That is exactly how Boo is, but add in the strange silver behind the ears, armpits and butt.

oh, and in your last pic, due to the angle, it looks like you pierced her lip to hang her tags. lol

LOL! I didn't notice that until you pointed it out! http://www.pitbull-chat.com/images/smilies/smile.png Ripley would look good with a few piercings! Casper actually had his ear pierced by a Basset Hound and I was so mean, I put a hoop thru it to see how it would look.

lol

@ MsAcre, thanks. Seven Sins and I will have to have a lunch date and talk color one of these days. I just find this stuff fasinating, one of my science projects in high school was based on patterns of white. So yes, if Seven Sins is a guru, I am the nerd LOL.


@ Blaze N' Pits, what color was Roco who bred the little in that forum? Cute little puppies. I see a Red nose, so Roco must have been red or a carrier, and see fawn with masks, and are those Seals as well? There is something else there, are they Sables or another dilute of some sort?


@ SlayerGirl, you just gave me another idea. And maybe you or the other owners can answer this for me. What color is the skin of your dogs? See I've only ever had dogs with diluted or pink skin. My pointer is a red nose, and she has delicious little liver spots on her belly. My dalmations, while black and white, their spotted areas were a liver color......mm, not to sure on that one now. They passed away when I was in high school and I don't have any photos showing their bellys. Melly, the yellow lab, hmm, she has longer hair, and I seem to recall the skin of her belly being black. I will have to remember to give her a good belly rub next time I see her.


Dose the skin on a dogs belly fade to pink or does it stay the same color as the rest of the body?


@ Tiffany, that last photo of Ripley is very intresting (aside form the peircing lol). I'm not sure how I would describe those brown accents in his hair, other then motteling or brindeling. I know in brindled horses, it can be very loud or very subtle. I wonder if it's the same for dogs? How is the red through the rest of his body? And do you think he has a Black Mask?


@ Teal, I'm so glad you posted her! I was looking at your other post of her playing fetch in the pool. Beautiful girl. If I needed to trace back her pedigree and color, is there a data base for the breed, or how would I go about it?






And thank you all for being so friendly. I know it can be alarming when a new comer comes into the neighborhood and suddenly starts talking color and breeding. I assure you I have very simple and honest intentions LOL and encurange everyone to ask questions if they would like. I did an intro post, but wasn't sure what to say LOL.

Here...its not the best pic..but her skin tone shows.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...bydoll/Sp9.jpg