[HomePageOEMfreeSOFTWARE]

Plenty of folks here don't have a pit bull PHL; it's not a prerequisite to stick around. Plus if you were entertaining the idea of getting one; you may re-visit the idea in the future...so...soaking in the atmosphere may not be a bad idea.

Don't feel singled out; this is a very passionate and rough and tumble group

Yes we are! Pit bulls are passionate dogs for passionate owners!

[engacenus]

Yes. Just a dog of that breed with different characteristics. Is a Bluetick with a poor sense of smell still a Bluetick? Is a slow greyhound still a greyhound? Are our pits any less pits because they won't fight dogs?

People get so hung up on dog agression and fighting history that they forget what REALLY makes this breed great, which is their heart. Which is why we use them. Dog fighting is just one thing that people decided to do with that heart. That's where the glory was, that's where the money and the bets were, and so that's what got written about and remembered and unfortunately that's what people these days are hung up on. I find it sad that people like me who use their heart, the real bright spot of the breed get told that we don't own the real thing, or that we shouldn't have the dogs we have.

Our dogs get roughed up, banged around, exhausted, and still are expected to do their job without fault. They are expected to hold and control an animal several times their size in brush, water, sand you name it and still get the job done no matter how tired they get. That's heart, the heart that is what the breed was built on. And to insult me and especially them by saying either I shouldn't own them, or they aren't what they are quite frankly pisses me off. Especially when it comes from somebody who probably has never seen that kind of heart.

My question to you is, if I had some dog agressive show dog with papers, but has never had a chance to do anything but walk in circles, stand still and lay around at home, do I have an APBT? The show dogs that everyone loves to claim as the real deal don't do anything that I know of to display the heart that makes the breed great. Sure they are dog agressive but that really doesn't mean a damn thing except that they are dog agressive. That can come in a lot of packages.

Boy, that really touched me! I can tell you really wrote that from YOUR heart. As the owner of just "pet" dogs, I think what you do with your dogs is pretty awesome!

[Poowssnople]

Yes. Just a dog of that breed with different characteristics. Is a Bluetick with a poor sense of smell still a Bluetick? Is a slow greyhound still a greyhound? Are our pits any less pits because they won't fight dogs?

People get so hung up on dog agression and fighting history that they forget what REALLY makes this breed great, which is their heart. Which is why we use them. Dog fighting is just one thing that people decided to do with that heart. That's where the glory was, that's where the money and the bets were, and so that's what got written about and remembered and unfortunately that's what people these days are hung up on. I find it sad that people like me who use their heart, the real bright spot of the breed get told that we don't own the real thing, or that we shouldn't have the dogs we have.

Our dogs get roughed up, banged around, exhausted, and still are expected to do their job without fault. They are expected to hold and control an animal several times their size in brush, water, sand you name it and still get the job done no matter how tired they get. That's heart, the heart that is what the breed was built on. And to insult me and especially them by saying either I shouldn't own them, or they aren't what they are quite frankly pisses me off. Especially when it comes from somebody who probably has never seen that kind of heart.

My question to you is, if I had some dog agressive show dog with papers, but has never had a chance to do anything but walk in circles, stand still and lay around at home, do I have an APBT? The show dogs that everyone loves to claim as the real deal don't do anything that I know of to display the heart that makes the breed great. Sure they are dog agressive but that really doesn't mean a damn thing except that they are dog agressive. That can come in a lot of packages.

Yes, I agree. Relatively few of the dog through the ages have been used for dogfighting. They have always been an all-purpose type dog, mostly for rough work -- and the dogs used for that or going west with the pioneers and doing whatever needed doing are no less APBTs than the ones that fought. The fighting history is WHAT GOT RECORDED!*

Carla

[Poowssnople]

The AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER however was bred for fighting other dogs. Maybe it's stupid but I feel it in the same way that I feel that GSDs who can't herd are hardly GSDs anymore. That shouldn't insult GSD owners in ANY way shape or form because I am not disrespecing the dogs because they are downright AMAZING! But they are not sheep herders... why are they called such?

That's just the way breed names ARE, I guess. You have to pick SOMETHING!*

I guess you could call the Labrador Retrievers that don't retrieve but are Guide Dogs a different name, I guess you could call the German Shepherds that do police work a different name, I guess you could call the Pit Bulls that do catch work a different name....it just would be kind of unwieldy and as far as I know, most people know about a history of a breed, where the name came from and that many breeds through the ages have done other things than the specific thing it was named after....just kinda how the "pure-bred" dog scheme works!

Carla

[ggandibazz]

Folks, sorry I jumped the gun and attacked the other guy saying he possibly supports dog fighting - that was wrong and I apologize.

This was not an attempt to troll in any way. It was really a discussion point and I wanted to know the opinion out there about manipulation of certain treats of the breed, specifically "undesirable" ones and what people thought about it. There is a big difference between accepting the a specific characteristic of a breed and admiring/enjoying it. Catchrcall has a good point and it is very possible that by removing the dog aggressiveness you could also lose another positive part of the breed, making it not appealing. Anyway - this discussion got so out of line, it's pointless to entertain it.

Having said that - you guys need to chill a little. Anything that gets posted is bashed on the spot - and I think ppl need to learn on how to treat others. It is not the first time I see this behavior in the forum, and yes, I selected another breed, and I am sure most of you think I probably should get out, which I will. I just wanted to make a point before leaving.

I do hope folks come to this forum, and even if they only read the sticks, they will learn a lot - like I did. (I had no idea the breakstick even existed...)

Thanks for the help most of you gave me in the other topic.

Good luck and farewell folks.

PL

[JesikaFlpk]

Wow.... I did not mean to upset you. I just meant that if you can't handle the possibility of your dog one day showing DA then maybe you shouldn't own one. I agree it's possible to selectively breed non-DA dogs generation after generation and produce dogs that are less likely to show the trait. I agree. BUT, there is always the possibility that it will pop up. It's in the breed. It may never, and if so then great. I however will not give up on my dog if it one days shows DA. I will deal with it because I knew when I got the dog that it's a common trait. I just don't agree with giving up and dumping a dog because of it.
I know you have to have dogs that can work together . I get it . You cant have them get heated in the hunt and turn away from a hog an go after one another.
I don't feel that a "real" APBT has to be papered and shown. I agree with you that to be considered a prime example of the breed papered or not is has to work and show it has the heart and will to work to please his owner and get the job done.
I do support registered dogs when breeding. But that's just me. In your case I understand to you your dog could be mixed as hell lol, just as long as it does it's job.
To say that I have probably never had or worked a dog with real heart is a false assumption. I raised, trained and worked border collies. Now that is a breed willing to work 24/7 rain or shine. They will do what ever you ask and get the job done. A truly amazing breed.

[rikdpola]

I don't have an APBT, PHL. I've got a mutt and a Doberman. It's not important.

[MrsGoo]

It it acceptable to expect the DA part of our dogs to take a back burner position when they have a job to do? For mine I really don't have to worry about it as she gets long with anything the same size or bigger than her, but the reason I have her is to do activities with that sometimes means running across other dogs such as SAR. That's the reason I was even considering a pit bull as my breed of choice was for their heart. I don't care if my dogs don't like others but when we're doing work I expect them to do their jobs first.

[Ikrleprl]

Seriously?

If it's so easy to breed out those undesirable traits, why isn't there a perfect dog in existence, who never barks at other dogs or the mailman, learns quickly, holds its pee/poop for 12 hours reliably, makes a perfect cup of coffee, and brings me breakfast in bed?

Dogs, like ANYTHING ELSE ON EARTH, have good qualities and not-so-great ones. This is the essence of traditional Chinese thinking, for what it's worth - the yin and yang. Balance of opposites. It's how the world works.

My dog is perfect, TO ME. Yes, I want to train her more and help her with some reactivity issues, but I don't want to change her fundamental Amy-ness.

Damn, it's too early to be so philosophical. That dog had better bring me a cup of coffee, stat!

[rikdpola]

Catchrcall I know there are APBTs out there that are not DA and those I'm sure make excellent dogs for circumstances which a dog should not be DA (such as hunting in a pack). But the breed as a whole should not be bred away from dog aggression. I could use APBTs as lure coursing dogs but I should not breed them into a sighthound like shape. Because when you change the traits of a breed, are they really that same breed anymore?

[Desflahd]

Yes. Just a dog of that breed with different characteristics. Is a Bluetick with a poor sense of smell still a Bluetick? Is a slow greyhound still a greyhound? Are our pits any less pits because they won't fight dogs?

People get so hung up on dog agression and fighting history that they forget what REALLY makes this breed great, which is their heart. Which is why we use them. Dog fighting is just one thing that people decided to do with that heart. That's where the glory was, that's where the money and the bets were, and so that's what got written about and remembered and unfortunately that's what people these days are hung up on. I find it sad that people like me who use their heart, the real bright spot of the breed get told that we don't own the real thing, or that we shouldn't have the dogs we have.

Our dogs get roughed up, banged around, exhausted, and still are expected to do their job without fault. They are expected to hold and control an animal several times their size in brush, water, sand you name it and still get the job done no matter how tired they get. That's heart, the heart that is what the breed was built on. And to insult me and especially them by saying either I shouldn't own them, or they aren't what they are quite frankly pisses me off. Especially when it comes from somebody who probably has never seen that kind of heart.

My question to you is, if I had some dog agressive show dog with papers, but has never had a chance to do anything but walk in circles, stand still and lay around at home, do I have an APBT? The show dogs that everyone loves to claim as the real deal don't do anything that I know of to display the heart that makes the breed great. Sure they are dog agressive but that really doesn't mean a damn thing except that they are dog agressive. That can come in a lot of packages.

[Deribasov]

What is insulting to me is when somebody says that I shouldn't own one because I don't tolerate dog aggression. What is insulting to them is when somebody says that they aren't the real deal.

I think anyone here would be insulted by that, but dont get insulted because your dogs do more than the majority of dogs here and they really do earn their feed, so who cares what people think or call your dogs ya know?

Also, sorry if I had anything to do with you feeling like that. Your a dope man and feed some great working dogs, whatever you choose to call them or not call them doesnt matter

Don't feel singled out; this is a very passionate and rough and tumble group

This. Trust me your not being singled out, no matter how long someone has been on this site they too will still get 'ganged' up on or have spats with other members, because just like the pit bull dogs we own and love we too have bold personalities and big attitudes!

[Desflahd]

And why does it insult you if someone says your dogs are not APBTs, just wondering? American Pit Bull Terrier is just a name.

Truthfully, I don't call them APBT myself. I call them "pits" meaning the sort of generic sense, or just "bulldogs". What is insulting to me is when somebody says that I shouldn't own one because I don't tolerate dog aggression. What is insulting to them is when somebody says that they aren't the real deal. Feeling like I do, that heart, not dog aggression is the basis of the breed, it is a slight toward them and the fortitude they show week in and week out, time after time without fail. What pisses me off is when it comes from somebody that owns a pedigreed couch potato that's never had to do anything more difficult than jump up on a king sized bed or go to a dog show. Where's the heart in that?

What most people so emphatically defend, at least in this country as a "true" APBT exists on paper. Dogs that have never done a damn thing except be born, registered, and pampered. Hell unpedrigreed pulling dogs show more heart than a lot of the paper pits out there. That's where the insult lies.

---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------

When did I or anyone say to breed FOR DA? My favorite dog of all times Nigerino was said to be able to play with other dogs.

That's what I'm saying. Dog agression does not make the breed. Heart does.

[Desflahd]

I agree with that completely. I believe it to be a fact. But it doesn't change anything.

[HomePageOEMfreeSOFTWARE]

Oh PHL we dont want you gone! And believe me, I know what you mean about people getting attitides in this forum but even I have been guilty of it.. I think we all just get emotional over topics that we have a strong stance on and nibody shoukd take it personally!

[rikdpola]

Yes a slow Greyhound is still a Greyhound, but if you take greyhounds and specifically breed them to be slow, are they still Greyhounds...? I don't think so personally.

They weren't used in dogfighting for their heart, their heart came because they were used for dogfighting... It's what they were created for. Obviously that's illegal and I'm not asking people to go out and break the law. But if you take an important trait to a breed and breed away from it, specifically, it seems you are creating something other than what the breed originally was.

[Desflahd]

They weren't used in dogfighting for their heart, their heart came because they were used for dogfighting...

Wrong. If the people that started the whole thing had used just any ol dog that came down the pike we wouldn't have the dogs we have today. They chose their stock for heart, and turned that toward fighting. They came from bulldogs known for not quitting and terriers known for not quitting. That's why when somebody started looking to fight dogs, that's what they started with. Heart, drive, toughness whatever you want to call it. Dog agression does not make the breed. It's been pointed out before that some of the old pit dogs weren't even dog agressive until they were ready to go.

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------

Maybe it's better put like this. When this breed was started out, if they were breeding for DA first rather than heart they would have taken any scrappy little dogfighting shithead that came along. They didn't. They went for the bulldogs and terriers. The breeds known for never giving up.

[rikdpola]

When did I or anyone say to breed FOR DA? My favorite dog of all times Nigerino was said to be able to play with other dogs. I didn't say a non-DA dog is not an APBT. I said that when you start breeding away from breed traits, do you still have the same breed? If I took a bunch of APBTs and slowly bred them up to 100lbs and a greyhound-like shape and used them to hunt coyote... are they still APBTs?

[dosugxxx]

Plenty of folks here don't have a pit bull PHL; it's not a prerequisite to stick around. Plus if you were entertaining the idea of getting one; you may re-visit the idea in the future...so...soaking in the atmosphere may not be a bad idea.

Don't feel singled out; this is a very passionate and rough and tumble group

[Desflahd]

Nobody says it's easy, but just like it was bred into them, it can be toned down. Start with the right dogs, cull what doesn't work, and breed back to what does. I see it every day in my own yard and in the dogs I hunt with that belong to other people. There are thousands of working pits in Texas alone that it's worked on. That's all the evidence that I need. My requirements are more stringent than the average pet owner, so while I may like a dog, if they don't fit the pack and do their job the way I like them to do it, they don't stay here. Are they perfect dogs? No. But they are without a trait that would make them a useless liability to us. It's not exactly groundbreaking stuff. I have no idea why it's apparently difficult to understand.