[illetrygrargo]

Thank you for the post and what you say makes absolute sense. However, if the dog is simply not in the mood for a treat or doesnt care whether he/she gets a treat, then perhaps she will just go inside and skip the treat this time. After all, there is no reason NOT to go inside - she'll get a treat next time she goes outside and nothing will be done about her going inside anyway.

Or maybe i'm just overthinking it.

This is probably over-simplifying but...dogs are creatures of habit. They love routine. Everytime they perform a behavior there is an increased likelihood they will perform that behavior in the future, more so if it is a self rewarding behavior or if it is reinforced. SO basically the more you set up the environment so they perform a certain behavior and set up the environment so they DON'T get to perform a competing behavior the more ingrained you are making the behavior that you want to see.

In other words the method above sets up a scenario where there is a very high likelihood that everytime the dog eliminates it will be outside (and you strengthen this behavior by positively reinforcing this), while you are busy doing all of this you are preventing the dog from ever going inside so the dog learns to not even consider going inside as an option. Why would it go inside? It ALWAYS goes outside. And it is usually a joyous event. Don't just give a treat. Give praise. Dogs always like to be told WHAT A GOOD DOG YOU ARE with a pat on the head.

Now if you screw up during the training process by not being vigilent enough and allowing a situation to occur where the dog (before it has learned) goes inside (by for example failing to take it out when it would need to eliminate - i.e. every hour but especially after eating, after napping, after playing, if you see it sniffing around/circling) then you are making your job harder and you are making it a longer process for the dog to learn. You have just shot yourself in the foot because now the scent of the accident will call the dog back (and that is way more powerful then any whack on the nose will ever be) - so make sure to use a special cleaner to get the smell up. And you have given the dog the experience of performing the competing behavior: eliminating inside.

Dogs are sometimes not very smart in certain areas. Punishing a dog for eliminating in the house does not necessarily teach it that going in the house is wrong, often it just teaches that going in front of you is wrong and that going in the house when you are not around or sneaking off to go in the house where you won't see...is hunky dory!

[Anaedilla]

But, to the OP, it is true that when it comes to potty training, the dog doesn't know what you are punishing it for. You know how we can rewind our brains and recall memories? Like I can remember that I went to the bathroom myself just a little while ago. Well, dogs can't do that. They can't rewind their memories and remember that they peed on the floor. The only real way to correct them is to catch them doing that and they will connect the two. Peeing on floor = angry mommy or daddy. But when you "rub their nose in it", all they learn is that messes on the floor make you angry. They won't realize that them MAKING the mess on the floor is wrong. A lot of people make this mistake and never have fully potty trained dogs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Babposa]

Most dogs crave attention. To the dog, negative attention is better than no attention. You could also think of it this way- If all you are ever told is what you do wrong how will you ever know when you are actually doing right. Most dogs want to please you and it makes them happy to do so. Let them know what they do that makes you happy and they will offer that behavior more.

[Anaedilla]

All they know is that you're angry, which is why they cower (NOT because they are remorseful).

I'll have to differ with that. When I show Chevelle something she chewed up, she won't look at me. I can be totally calm, even happy, and she still won't look at me. I can be laughing when I say "Chevelle, did you chew this?" and she still won't look at me. As apposed to when I yell at her, she goes and gets into her kennel. So, I dont think that's always true. No matter what science says...



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Rupeviv]

I'll have to differ with that. When I show Chevelle something she chewed up, she won't look at me. I can be totally calm, even happy, and she still won't look at me. I can be laughing when I say "Chevelle, did you chew this?" and she still won't look at me. As apposed to when I yell at her, she goes and gets into her kennel. So, I dont think that's always true. No matter what science says...



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

That seems to be a common theme in your illogical reasoning "no matter what science says". Regardless, dogs are very sensitive to emotion and body language. Even if YOU think you're calm/happy/whatever, SHE knows that you're not. I can tell you this from personal experience. I get very nervous when I walk into the obedience ring. Even if I take a lot of deep breaths and make it "happy Lily fun time" and smile and make happy noises, Lily still knows I'm stressed and it transfers right down the leash. It doesn't matter what you pretend you are, emotionally, dogs see through that. That's what makes them amazing companions and teammates.

---------- Post added at 11:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

But, to the OP, it is true that when it comes to potty training, the dog doesn't know what you are punishing it for. You know how we can rewind our brains and recall memories? Like I can remember that I went to the bathroom myself just a little while ago. Well, dogs can't do that. They can't rewind their memories and remember that they peed on the floor. The only real way to correct them is to catch them doing that and they will connect the two. Peeing on floor = angry mommy or daddy. But when you "rub their nose in it", all they learn is that messes on the floor make you angry. They won't realize that them MAKING the mess on the floor is wrong. A lot of people make this mistake and never have fully potty trained dogs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Not true. Rubbing their nose into it does ABSOLUTELY nothing. They DO NOT relate that to anything they have done or even what's on the floor. They don't know that pee on the floor makes you angry. What are they doing when you're rubbing their nose in it? What behavior are they exhibiting? The usual behavior for when a person walks into the house and sees a mess on the floor is to call the dog to them, the dog goes "oh hello most wonderful human ever!". And then what happens? Human gets angry and grabs dog angrily and shoves them in their own shit. So what behavior is the dog now connecting to the shit? Coming to you. Congratulations- you've now taught your dog to never come to you.

[Rupeviv]

What I find counter-intuitive is punishing a dog for something that it doesn't know is wrong and doesn't know how to do right.

Not only that, but dogs live in the moment. Literally, second by second. The rules that apply to rewards apply to punishment. Most cases of 'rubbing his nose in it' happen long after the fact. Dogs have no idea that you are punishing them for urinating/defecating in the house. All they know is that you're angry, which is why they cower (NOT because they are remorseful).

The best thing you can do for your dog is to teach it a cue, whether it be bell ringing, door knocking, or barking. Teach your dog to tell you when it needs to potty. Doing this will help them be successful.

One thing to remember is that these are dogs, as in animals, not robots. They won't be perfect, especially not as puppies. Create a trusting bond between you and your pup early on and that trust will perpetuate throughout your dog's life. You'll have a dog that WANTS to work with you, not in fear of you or in spit of your trust.

Plus, rubbing a dog's nose in its excrement is just plain unsanitary.