I think you should just stfu and the OP can decide for themselves what they believe. Dogs DO relate you rubbing their nose in their piss as "mess makes Mommy mad" and there ARE scientific studies to back that, but they do not relate it to what they did. They do not realize that they themselves did it. But ANYWAYS, this is not I the debate section so don't bother replying, thanks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

If you could please provide those studies, I would be happy to read through them. If by chance you don't have access to any, could you summarize the main points of each, who conducted the study, and how the study was conducted? I'm always willing to change my opinion when faced with facts, unfortunately you have not provided me with any.

It is my belief that the "remorse" dogs show is a conditioned response. I remember our dog would sometimes tear up the garbage when we were away (maybe once out of 20 times, very erratic). When he was younger he would always greet us at the door when we came home. If there was garbage on the floor we would be upset with him and he would have a swat and a timeout. Now over the course of time if he had torn up the garbage he would not greet us at the door. Garbage on the floor=swat and timeout. There is no doubt in my mind that this is not "remorse" but a conditioned response to garbage being on the floor. Dogs live in the moment, if it's fun and rewarding at the time they are going to do it. If a dog truly showed remorse (understanding) they would not partake in that action again because they would relate the negative with the action itself.

Agreed. I can look at one of my labs at any time and say "what did you do?" and her head lowers, no eye contact is made, tail wags, ears go back, all appeasement gestures, even though she didn't actually do anything. I can walk into a room and kick over the garbage myself and she'll slink away and show the same "guilty" behavior.

Unfortunately, I can't. I "Stumbled Upon" one and the other was given to me in a Facebook message that I deleted. But the fact is this: they DO realize that you are shoving their face into a pile of feces or urine and that you are angry. Some dogs make the connection that poop makes you angry, but they don't make the connection that them MAKING poop on the floor makes you angry.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I agree that dogs understand you're angry when you rub their face in shit.

But even in your own post you said; SOME dogs make the connection that the poop makes you angry.

If only SOME dogs even make THAT connection, doesn't rubbing your dog's face in shit seem awfully pointless? Never mind cruel?

If according to your "facts" and this "study", they don't make the connection at all between them actually pooping on the floor and you being angry this all seems moot. What's the point of doing it then? Just so the dog knows your angry even though you know that they aren't making the connection as to why?

I agree with Tanktastic.

Your dog doesn't look at you when you "pretend" to not be angry, because the majority of the time you are angry. So unless your dog is mentally challenged, they would go with what they know.

I smoke outside, when Hades hears the word "cigarette" he jumps up and starts crying because he knows we're going to go outside. If I scream; I don't want to smoke cigarettes anymore!, it's likely Hades would still think we were going outside. The conditioned response to "cigarettes" is go outside, regardless of what context or tone it's used in. May it confuse him if I use an angry tone, probably, but he's still going to assume we're going outside, he just might do so more quietly.

If you yell and hit your dog for chewing stuff up all the time and yell; DID YOU DO THIS!?!?!, promptly before giving them a smack, then one time laugh and ask if they did it "nicely", you're probably going to get the same response, at the very most, you'll get a confused dog who wants to trust that you aren't going to beat them but their conditioned brain doesn't really want to let them.

I never said I agreed with the method or that I thought it had a point. Rubbing your dogs face in shit is obviously pointless, but I was simply stating a couple facts.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I agree with K9 and LovePup.

Maci was pee pad trained when I got her, and I used ALL positive methods after I realized punishing wasn't working to train her to go outside....wich was a miracle because she's be peeing on pads for over two years when I got her lol and she loved it. She would go pee probably every 3 hours on the mark. SO I took away her pee pads and every three house took her outside and said "go potty!" and if she did then she got a little treat and a 'Yay!" With in two weeks she was off pee pads and reliably going outside during the day, then at night she got crated.

Now she is at the point where she doesn't ever go in a crate, even if I leave the house for 5-8hours she be be left out as long as I empty her water dish to about 1 cup/water. And she goes all night without incident.

When I was using punishment like a spank and no! I realized she would always find a different spot to pee/poop in and the more I punished her the more hidden her spots became. She tried it behind all the doors, behind the toilet, under the table, under the futon, in corners, and then lastly after about two weeks she started to go in her own bed! After that I researched potty training and used the positive method... two weeks and she was reliable!

Plus this is a chance to start teaching your puppy a reward marker, like "Yes!" every time you say YES! for a behavior you like she gets a treat and is more likely to repeat that behavior and it will be easier to make it into a command.

---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

BTW Maci is my yorkie, a breed notorious for "being a bit harder to potty train" according to most multiple breed dog owners.

I Finally got Koi to the point that She will go to the door when she needs out. BUT you have to watch her because if you don't go and take her out she WILL use it in the house. This is where I get the 'dog give the dog a chance the eliminate in the house' bit. Koi is a Dachshund/Min Pin Mix. Two Wonderfully hard to house train breeds. @.@

Also on the bit about rubbing a dogs nose in it:
As said by the Mighty Jeff Dunham himself. Their Chihuahua, after sticking the dogs nose in it thought It shouldn't poop or pee EVER.

A dog DOESN'T learn by what is RIGHT or WRONG. It is taught by What is Safe and what is NOT. And OBVIOUSLY if you are rubbing your dogs nose in to something it does naturally; it thinks it ISN'T safe to poop or pee AROUND YOU. Which will also make it difficult in teaching the dog out to use it outside because it will feel uncomfortable around you.

Ahhhh as a psychology major i love seeing psychological quotes in real world situations....never can go wrong* with classical conditioning and some positive reinforcement!

The new potty training methods seem counter intuitive - someone please explain
 

When I was growing up, the way we taught puppies to not soil inside was to yell at them, give them a small swat, rub their nose in it, then take them outside.

Now a days, we are taught to simply take the puppy outside every hour, let them go potty, and praise them/give them a treat when they do. However, to me, this seems counter intuitive so I have a few questions:

1) Doesn't this method simply teach the dog that they will be given an opportunity to potty every hour the rest of their life and that they will get a treat every time?

Reason I ask: I'm willing to bring her out every hour to potty for the first couple of months to potty train her, but I don't want to do this the rest of her life.

2) This method doesn't seem to teach that going inside is wrong. It merely teaches that going potty outside has a reward. But there is no punishment for going inside, so there really is no reason to NOT go inside.

Any thoughts on this? I want to see a light at the end of the tunnel and I want to be able to trust her to not go inside.

I agree the method works and to me it makes more sense to show an animal what you DO want it to do, as opposed to what you DON'T want it to do.

Once the pup is older and "gets" that it goes outside and can go longer without needing to eliminate; then you can teach some sort of cue (like ringing bells) so the dog can tell you when it needs to go out.

Great post by LovePup.

I trained Hades to go outside with the method you posted. It was hell house training Hades, he had severe separation anxiety and would soil himself out of pure terror. The end result of training a dog this way, even one with severe SA, is a dog that goes to the bathroom FAST. Hades to this day, at 6 years old, runs outside and poops and pees right away, it's great because we don't leave him outside unsupervised and it gets cold here. We haven't treated him for going outside in a long, long time.

It's about conditioning. Pavlov, the bell and dog drool? That's what it's all about. Conditioning the appropriate responses using positive reinforcement. Pavlov didn't need to beat the dog to make it drool because he used conditioning principles properly. Applying the right methods effectively rules out the need to have a; Why should I? The answer is obvious, you should because it benefits you, and then you do, because that's what you've always done. Make sense?

Place yourself in your dog's shoes. If you love money more than anything else in the world and I gave you $100 every time I asked you took the garbage out in Wookey talk (sometimes I gave you a THOUSAND, you just never knew when) do you really need a reason NOT to take the garbage out? In fact, if I punched you in the head if you didn't understand me, or didn't hear me one time, wouldn't the only change be the way you looked at me? It may even somewhat devalue the money I give you when you do it right, or at least make you receive it differently.

I don't think ill of anyone that yells at their dog or gives it a smack. And if it works, that's great! But the method you described in your OP does work if your consistent without the need of physical punishment. http://www.pitbull-chat.com/images/smilies/smile.png It's up to you, what you can come to grips with in your own head!

Punishment doesn't have to be hitting or yelling (though I am not against a swat here and there as needed). It can be the loss of privileges (free roam of the house, toys, attention, treats). Dogs are animals and are by nature selfish creatures. They will do things to get things. Whatever offers the greatest reward they will do. This isn't just for potty training either, it is applicable to all dog behavior. NILIF training

The reason why it is advised to take a puppy out every hour is because they cannot control their bladder as well as an adult can. The older the dog gets the better it will be at holding it and waiting. Also, no it doesn't teach the dog it is wrong to potty inside; but it does teach the dog that it is right to potty outside. This is the method I used with both my dogs and The bigger one is 100% house broken and the little one is about 95% (Due to her breed, she may never be fully house broken). The reason you don't want to scold the dog for using it in the house is because it doesn't do any good. It just makes the dog think its only safe to do this when you (the punisher) is not around. believe me, I use to be one of those who literally beat their dogs for pooping and peeing in the house. When I got my first pit and realized this wasn't working I switched methods and she was actually house broken quicker then said other method.

Dogs learn by positive experiences. Show them where you want them to potty, reward them and praise them, and more then likely they will start telling you when they need to go out instead of finding a nice shirt or pair of paints to go on.

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

Also Crate training makes it a lot easier to house train by keeping the pup in its sleeping area all night (or most of it). It teaches them how to hold their badder. When you let them out of the crate in the morning its straight outside. Don't give them a chance to potty in the house. Make going out side to potty fun. Keep them excited. "Wanna go outside?!?!" Grab the leash tell them to sit and hook it on. Take them outside and then once they have done their business, praise them and bring them back in for food and a little water.

Some people I know were doing the smack the dog if she goes inside, even though they made no effort to bring her out on a regular basis or train her to do it outside, they just let her out with their other dog and expected her to get the idea. Dog peed in front of me, got smacked, I told them bad idea because she's just learning not to go in front of you and apparently she'd just learned that trick, they said she'd been going in back rooms or out of sight. If the dog doesn't understand they are supposed to go outside, they don't understand why they are getting smacked for doing what's normal, ie pottying wherever. You are better off not giving them the option to go inside, if they never get in the habit, it's not likely they will.

Yes on this! And don't end the walk when the dog eliminates, or it will know that peeing is the end of outdoor fun. I always walk Amy after she goes so I she knows that good things follow her peeing/pooping.

Find what moves your dog. Use that as a reward!

Thank you for the post and what you say makes absolute sense. However, if the dog is simply not in the mood for a treat or doesnt care whether he/she gets a treat, then perhaps she will just go inside and skip the treat this time. After all, there is no reason NOT to go inside - she'll get a treat next time she goes outside and nothing will be done about her going inside anyway.

Or maybe i'm just overthinking it.

This is probably over-simplifying but...dogs are creatures of habit. They love routine. Everytime they perform a behavior there is an increased likelihood they will perform that behavior in the future, more so if it is a self rewarding behavior or if it is reinforced. SO basically the more you set up the environment so they perform a certain behavior and set up the environment so they DON'T get to perform a competing behavior the more ingrained you are making the behavior that you want to see.

In other words the method above sets up a scenario where there is a very high likelihood that everytime the dog eliminates it will be outside (and you strengthen this behavior by positively reinforcing this), while you are busy doing all of this you are preventing the dog from ever going inside so the dog learns to not even consider going inside as an option. Why would it go inside? It ALWAYS goes outside. And it is usually a joyous event. Don't just give a treat. Give praise. Dogs always like to be told WHAT A GOOD DOG YOU ARE with a pat on the head.

Now if you screw up during the training process by not being vigilent enough and allowing a situation to occur where the dog (before it has learned) goes inside (by for example failing to take it out when it would need to eliminate - i.e. every hour but especially after eating, after napping, after playing, if you see it sniffing around/circling) then you are making your job harder and you are making it a longer process for the dog to learn. You have just shot yourself in the foot because now the scent of the accident will call the dog back (and that is way more powerful then any whack on the nose will ever be) - so make sure to use a special cleaner to get the smell up. And you have given the dog the experience of performing the competing behavior: eliminating inside.

Dogs are sometimes not very smart in certain areas. Punishing a dog for eliminating in the house does not necessarily teach it that going in the house is wrong, often it just teaches that going in front of you is wrong and that going in the house when you are not around or sneaking off to go in the house where you won't see...is hunky dory!