[drgshmcm]

Excellent posts from k9 Love. I agree 1000% and as always I find her posts to be practical, a wealth of knowledge and a breath of fresh air.

Since she doesn't leave me much else to say, I will simply post a few quotations from Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash for consideration. Quotations which seem to me to be also imminently practical...and plain old common sense:

Biting and threat displays (which are simply the indication of intention to bite) are how dogs settle both minor and major disputes and defend themselves from any perceived threat when they cannot or opt not to flee. In dog culture there are no letters to the editor, slanderous gossip and backstabbing, guilty feelings, democratic institutions, or lawyers. There are growls, snarls, snaps and bites. Aggressive behavior does not fracture relationships in dog society. It’s all taken very much in stride. The problem is that aggression often changes things a great deal in dog-human relationships. We routinely execute dogs who bite. That’s quite the culture clash.

There is an important distinction to be made: between dogs who inflict egregious damage when they bite—breaking bones, mutilating flesh, putting people in hospital or killing them—and garden-variety biters who inflict no damage or damage equivalent to a minor kitchen injury.

Usually no effort is made to distinguish dogs involved in fatal and near fatal maulings from kitchen-injury level biters. In human terms, thiswould be like lumping sharp words with felony assault and murder. The lumping of kitchen-injury biters with fatal maulers has sharpened the public’s quasi-whore-Madonna complex about dogs. If my dog is a nice dogwho wouldn’t kill someone, and dogs that are a bit growly or deliver minor bites are the same as killers, then there is a huge divide between my nice dog and your dog who is a bit growly. My dog isn’t even capable.

Dogs are unaware that they’ve been adopted into a culture where biting isconsidered a betrayal of trust and a capital offense. Incredibly little is actively, consciously done to reduce the probability of biting. Flight-bite is the dog’s hardwired program for increasing their distance from anything that spooks them. Dogs, like most animals, are extremely aware of and constantly manipulating social distance. There are only two ways to do this: move yourself away or get the other guy to move away, plan A or plan B. Getting the other guy to move away is the function of aggression.Which plan an individual dog chooses first (threaten or run) is a function of his genetic predisposition and learning history. Dogs will do what tends to have been successful in the past. They will also, if plan A is not working, switch without hesitation to plan B. Cornered dogs switch to threat display. Dogs spooked by your presence into behaving aggressively will turn and run if aggression doesn’t work. It is a matter of great urgency when the “increase distance” alarm goes off in a dog’s head. Genetic predisposition simply makes one plan or the other more likely and influences how likely the dog is to spook in the first place, all other things, such as how well socialized he is, being equal. An important piece of the puzzle that is missing in mass education is information about the seemingly innocuous events and contexts that most often elicit spooking in domestic dogs.

To accept aggression as normal behavior would require a fundamental shift in our view of domestic dogs. The potential payoff is that we could, starting today, reduce the number and severity of dog bites by facing up to the problem: dogs are animals and animals bite. It would simply take a large scale initiation of routine preventive intervention to minimize risk.


**It just always amazes me when supposed "dog people" seem to be so unaccepting of and so...freaked out for lack of a better term...by what seems to be normal dog behavior. Not saying we are to find it acceptable, and not saying we are not to train the dog otherwise...but as much as I like putting my dog in a cute little Elf suit...I understand and respect that she is an animal.

[MasTaBlau]

I really need some help. My boyfriend's dog has been a perfect dog until last week. Jasper has always been great with the kids (boys - 6 & 5, girl - 9 months), except at times a little excited and hyper.



Last week his temperament changed. He lunged at me when I tried to get him to go outside before bed. The next night, the same thing happened, but this time with a deep low growl as well. I yelled at him and told him to get outside. I started doing some research to see why all of a sudden he was acting like this toward me when I've been his primary caretaker since 12 weeks. Jasper is now 2.



I started "reclaiming" my turf with the dog and started showing him I was in charge. I made him rely on me for everything and he couldn't get fed, go out, or come back in without first following my commands. After a couple days, he was responding more quickly to my commands. I thought I had figured out the problem and was going to continue this reinforcement. He was doing better. He never acted any differently with the kids or my boyfriend. This was only with me. I was pleased with his quick turn around with no more lunging incidents.



Sunday night, that all changed. The baby was playing near him like she always does. When she crawled in front of him (yes I was watching her and him), he snapped without her even touching him. He growled and bit her right in the face above her eye. She had scratches and welts from the bite, but it didn't break the skin and the marks healed within 24 hours. I yelled at him as he was running

into his kennel, because he knew he did wrong and ran as soon as it happened. After tending to the baby, I locked him up for the rest of the night.



My boyfriend won't talk to me about it and I think it's really bothering him. I told him we have to do something with the Jasper. I made some phone calls and talked to a behavioral therapist he is dominance aggressive. and he said that since there are kids involved, it was leaning towards euthanasia. He said he would work with him if we wanted, but there were no guarantees that he could help him.



I made another call to a rescue shelter to see what their thoughts were. The lady I spoke with has been rescuing dogs for 15 years and has had to but her own dogs down for this issue. She said when they hit 2, they will do this and there is really no fixing it. She told me even with training, we'd never be able to trust our dog again. She said, if it was her dog, she'd euthanize it.



I know what we have to do, and its very difficult because he is a good, caring dog. I was crying over the whole situation last night and he came up and started kissing me and snuggling. He really is a caring dog. My boyfriend looks at him as his baby and won't even discuss the biting incident. So for now, the dog is locked up in the dining room for the time being unless the kids are asleep and then I will let him out with me. Anyone ever deal with this type of behavioral issue? Is there really any hope for the dog ever being able to be a part of our family again? And how do I explain this to an owner in denial about how dangerous this dog is for our three beautiful children. If the dog doesn't go soon, I will have no choice but to remove myself and the two children that are biologically mine from this situation. If I could, I'd take his son with me too. For me its no contest, I'd rather euthanize Jasper than bury my child.

[Alexeryy]

It sounds like you already know what you need to do.

[StizePypemype]

Wow. im so sorry you have to deal with this. I do not have any experience with issues like this.. but i think you know what you have to do...Sorry again..

[maxfreemann]

I'll be honest I don't envy the situation you are in. However I do have to disagree with the comment about when they hit 2 they will do this and there is no fixing. Yes a dog does usually does show his true personality around the age of two. But I find it odd that he has been fine up until now and just all the sudden has had this change. Which leads me to think there may be something more going on. Something Medical. Because that is not normal at all.

Have you taken this dog in for a full medical work up to rule out any possible health reasons that could be causing this behavior? Was is possible at all that the dog felt threatened by something the baby did? Not that I take any situation where a dog has bitten a child lightly. I am a parent and if my dog were to bite my daughter unprovoked for no reason what so ever, she would be lucky to survive long enough to make it to the vet for a humane euthanization. However that being said, I think there might be something more going on.

I say before putting the dog down. Have the behaviorist come out and work with your dog and atleast evaluate the dog. Also get a full medical work up. I had a dog in the past tha was HA due to a underlying nuerological issue and seizure disorder. It was able to be managed and meds helped.

On the one hand I want to say don't put this dog down until you have covered all the bases. On the other hand as a parent I want to say don't take the risk.
.

I think it would also be good if you asked this in the behavior/training section. You will get more responses and help there.

[OWDavid]

x2 on what Chloe said.

You don't trust the dog. After extensive training and tons of money and hours spent working with the dog, you probably still won't trust it. Plenty of good pit bulls out there with no temperament issues that love kids. Too many homeless dogs to spend that amount of time and money on a dog that may or may not be able to be 100% rehabbed.


I also disagree with the "2-year-old pit bulls do this". They don't. It's not normal behavior.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation.

[Xxmlqevq]

Don't make that dog another person's problem. Put it down. No room in this world for a dog that will bite at a baby.

Unoriginal is right. There is something wrong with the dog. That's not normal.

[immewaycypef]

Since it is so random I would be going and getting a thyroid test done.
If it comes back everything is ok then I would put the dog down.
Maybe get a second opinion from another trainer as I find its weird the dog just started doing that and the trainer you talked to sounds like a tard.

[MasTaBlau]

SBTlove - We haven't brought the dog to a vet yet. My boyfriend and I work opposite schedules and only see each other for 30 minutes in the morning when he gets home from work and leaves for work as I get home from work. We won't spend anymore time than that together until Saturday when he gets out at 7 AM. So it's hard to have any discussion regarding the situation of the dog in 30 minutes with the strong feelings we both have regarding the situation. He didn't witness the incident so I think he may assume I am exageratting it even though he saw his daughters face. As for feeling threatened by the baby, we have pinpointed his lunging incidents to when he's laying on his bed. The therapist said he is holding it sacred and doesn't want to be bothered when he is on it. This is the only thing he seems to have an attachment towards. He doesn't guard his bone or his food.

As for the 2 year old dogs comment - perhaps I didn't word it very well. She didn't say pits, she said that if dogs (in general) are going to have aggression issues, it will surface at 2.

[OWDavid]

As for the 2 year old dogs comment - perhaps I didn't word it very well. She didn't say pits, she said that if dogs (in general) are going to have aggression issues, it will surface at 2.

I'm sorry but that's still not true. Some dogs show it when they're young puppies. People will tend to look the other way when it's a puppy, saying that it's just "puppy behavior". It's not always just normal puppy behavior, sometimes there's a real problem.

[MasTaBlau]

Jasper has always just been a little wild. And he's a chewer if he can't find his bone. We just always make sure we have spare bones in the cupboard. I can't say that I'm an expert on dogs or else, I wouldn't be here looking for guidance. I've had dogs all my life, never with any issues.

[immewaycypef]

SBTlove - We haven't brought the dog to a vet yet. My boyfriend and I work opposite schedules and only see each other for 30 minutes in the morning when he gets home from work and leaves for work as I get home from work. We won't spend anymore time than that together until Saturday when he gets out at 7 AM. So it's hard to have any discussion regarding the situation of the dog in 30 minutes with the strong feelings we both have regarding the situation. He didn't witness the incident so I think he may assume I am exageratting it even though he saw his daughters face. As for feeling threatened by the baby, we have pinpointed his lunging incidents to when he's laying on his bed. The therapist said he is holding it sacred and doesn't want to be bothered when he is on it. This is the only thing he seems to have an attachment towards. He doesn't guard his bone or his food.

As for the 2 year old dogs comment - perhaps I didn't word it very well. She didn't say pits, she said that if dogs (in general) are going to have aggression issues, it will surface at 2.

Maybe she's getting mixed up with dog aggression.
If your dog is HA then it will start showing signs as a pup, human aggression doesnt just happen.

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------

Jasper has always just been a little wild. And he's a chewer if he can't find his bone. We just always make sure we have spare bones in the cupboard. I can't say that I'm an expert on dogs or else, I wouldn't be here looking for guidance. I've had dogs all my life, never with any issues.

Your dog is 2 and still a chewer...sounds like he's bored.

[OWDavid]

Just so you know, I'm not saying that in regards to your dog. I'm strictly talking in response to your rescue contact falsely saying that it's a 2-year-old dog thing. It's not. Human Aggression can appear at any age and sometimes there's nothing you can do if a dog is just wired wrong.

[scewDeasp]

I would, of course, keep him AWAY from any children right now. Keep him on a leash at all times if he isn't in his crate.

I would take him in for a vet visit just to make sure there aren't any medical reasons to explain his sudden behaviour. If everything is right with him medically, I would have him put to sleep. It's incredibly hard (I know, I've done it ) but there are dogs out there who are sound and would NEVER jeopardize your baby... there's no reason to put up with it.

I'm sorry you're having to go through this

[MasTaBlau]

Unorginal - I know. Thanks for saying that though. I must admit, by boyfriend got him off a friend of his. He's a pit/mastiff/pug mix. Silly, I know, but even our vet verified he's got features of all three. He isn't pure, so I can't be sure what we are getting into with any genetic issues.

[KLhdfskja]

Resource guarding (if this is really what it is - you mentioned you have pinpointed it to him behaving like this around his bed) is a common issue in mastiff breeds (IME and I believe I read this somewhere as well which only reconfirmed it). While it is in no way acceptable behavior, it is common and manageable in a dog savy home. Unfortunately, this dog has a bite history which makes placing him 1) much more difficult and 2) a real liability. Had the discussion taken place prior to the bite on the baby, he may have more options. I hope whatever decision is made, everyone is able to remain safe. Good luck.

[payowlirriply]

You already know this, but keep the dog away from the kids. Period. Until you figure out what your going to do and get a good chance to talk to your other half. I don't care if your right there or not, keep him away.

When I work with a dog hands on, I have always found reasons to be quite forgiving of the dog (whether I admit this aloud to the owners or not). Most of the time I can find very real reasons, to a dog, that justifies the reason for air snaps, growling, bites etc. In all bite cases my first question is always; Was there blood? If a dog wants to bite you, and hurt you, there will be blood. I've had dogs grab me and leave bruises, some quite fearfully aggressive, but most of the time if there isn't blood, there's something to work with (not saying always).

Bottom line is this is a baby. How would you feel if your baby was now missing an eye? Or disfigured for life? You got away very easy with this incident so do not allow this dog around the kids AT ALL.

Because a dog bites does NOT MEAN IT IS HUMAN AGGRESSIVE. As a dog trainer that's one of my biggest pet peeves. People running around labelling a dog that bites as "human aggressive". Dogs' bite. That's what they do. To each other and to people if the need arises. There are so many legitimate reasons (to a dog) for them to bite I can't begin to list them. Sometimes dogs' "bite" simply as a form of communication, not to harm, it just so happens our skin is not as resistant as another dogs. Most bites I've encountered personally were as such. A dog that has continually given signs of being uncomfortable, or displayed signs to cease doing something around them, no one's listened so they escalate to a bite, a grab to put an exclamation point onto what they've been displaying numerous times. I am NOT saying this is acceptable, but to me, as a trainer it gives me something to work with. A trigger to identify and ways to work towards desensitizing the trigger, ergo erradicating the dog's need to drive their point home with a grab or a real bite if pushed too far.

I can't say without having witnessed the incident whether your dog was biting for a "legitimate reason", or is simply unstable and no amount of training can ever make him trustworthy. Get a reputable trainer/behaviourist to evaluate this dog. They can tell you whether they can help you, whether someone else can help this dog (rehoming, fostering with an experienced dog trainer) or if he needs to be PTS. Until then, I must stress, do NOT allow this dog around the kids. As I said, supervised or not, keep him separated until you get someone with the knowledge and experience to evaluate this dog in person.

ETA - Oh and take his bed away. If the issues all revolve around the bed, no more bed.

[KLhdfskja]

Good post K9 Love.

[streMunford]

I agree that you might want to take the dog to the vet first and make sure he's not sick. I know a dog who's hurting can tend to suddenly be snappy. I mean, you get cranky when you're sore. But if he comes home with a clean bill of health I'd put him down.

While I don't agree with the whole "2-year-old pit bulls do this" thing, it's true that if a dog has some type of aggression issue, it tends to show up between 1.5-3 years (tends to, not always) when the dog is maturing and coming into his own. If you get another dog, especially a medium-large breed, I really recommend you get an adult dog. While it seems a bit backwards because most people prefer to raise their own puppies, the truth is that some temperament traits are genetic, and if you get a dog as an adult, you can be fairly sure that what you see is what you get. They're already matured, they're the dog they're going to be, and you're much less likely to have the dog "turn on" to aggression.

[SmuffNuSMaxqh]

To hell with a behaviorist and a vet, just put the damn thing down. I have experienced a dog biting a child and there is no excuse for it. I was lucky that my kid was wearing a hoody under a leather jacket and it only bruised his arm. But as soon as he told me what happened I went out an culled the bastard on the spot. There is no excuse for biting a human ever. All that behaviorist crap is just making excuses for the dog and prolonging the inevitable. Cull it now and avoid future problems.